Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions

[Powerslider]

The lack of respect that you confess is exactly the problem.

As for the trail damage, I agree that class 1 bikes do not damage the trail more than the regular bikes do...eMTBs are what? Worst case 20lbs/10kg heavier than the average unassisted MTB? Realistically 10lbs/5kg more.
I am 190lbs/86kg, should I be banned from trails till I go down to 180lbs/80kg or whatever? That's ridiculous. Nobody says that.

BUT, throttled bikes can and do damage the trails, and especially throttled bikes with RIDERS that ride trails after the rain and do "burn outs" in the clay mud...it is not a "cuttie" here and there we are talking about. My local trails are riddled with these riders, even though there are trail closures and directives that suggest not running the trails after the rain...screw etiquette. This is the lack of respect that is the problem.

And when I volunteer to go for trail work (not in Arizona, would love to ride Hawes), I will go there on my eMTB too...I don't want to arrive there panting before I even do any work.
Again, because I guess I am bad in my writing : I have no issues with class 1 bikes, and I agree that the gate-keeping that cylists do against it, is based on stubborness and/or ignorance or "earn the pain up" whatever trip they are on. I am not trying to appease any of these peeps...they don't get it, it is fine. Snowboards vs. Skis.

I have clear issues with class 2/3 bikes and even worse, de-restricted emotos that cos-play class2/3 bikes, that run the trails day and night, ripping them up. Majority of those people in my area, are teens. They will never show up to dig or repair anything, but even if they did, that doesn't absolve them of doing what is clearly not allowed, and the "F-U I won't do what you tell me" attitude, is what might risk access to our trails.

I don't know how hawes is per se, but here in SoCal, lots of the trails are within city limits, with lots of homeowners that have political connections and lots of time to pursue their pet projects, spend time either hiking, or riding their horses in their neighboing trails. And you don't want these peeps petitioning or outright extorting local goverments kicking "eBikes" out. And if they do, I want to have a case to make about my Class 1 / 20mph "fast enough" eMTB, being worlds apart from the Class 2/3 bikes the "bad ones" (sorry, a line will be drawn anyways, I will have to be on the "right" side) are riding. If companies are allowed to pursue "more than 750W" and more than 20mph, then why not more than 3000W and why not more than 40mph, etc etc? We will end up being universally banned.

This is what DJI and all these "tech-bro-move-fast-and-break-things" mentality is risking for us.
Of course the real liability is the rider who is whiling to buy that tool and ride it with bad etiquette, but I cannot pursue individuals, not can I rely on shaming the shameless. I can only try to apply pressure and petition the source, perhaps try to be the good example infront of my local goverment/trail management bodies etc.

I’m adamantly against arbitrary speed or power limits. Here in the US we don’t use speed or power limits to regulate much faster and heavier vehicles like cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.. Instead we regulate behavior. We should do the same with bicycles. See a need to slow riders down on the trail? Then start ticketing riders for going too fast- analog or electric. This idea that you’re guilty because your bike has a specific capability is absurd and offensive.
The motor manufacturers are going to have to limit power because limiting speed is only going to drive riders to unground workarounds to unlock more speed. We already see these hacks as commonplace.

 

[timo2824]

This is what worries me the most. With these fast-accelerating and powerful EMTBs, in inexperienced hands, it is possible to cause the most damage to trails and nature. Then walkers and hikers complain about this and there are fears that the trails will be closed to all mountain bikers.

Most trail damage occurs via braking, going around mud holes widening the trail, or poorly designed trails to begin with. Acceleration is a very small percentage of the issues causing trail damage.

 

[DIomidis]

I’m adamantly against arbitrary speed or power limits. Here in the US we don’t use speed or power limits to regulate much faster and heavier vehicles like cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.. Instead we regulate behavior. We should do the same with bicycles. See a need to slow riders down on the trail? Then start ticketing riders for going too fast- analog or electric. This idea that you’re guilty because your bike has a specific capability is absurd and offensive.
The motor manufacturers are going to have to limit power because limiting speed is only going to drive riders to unground workarounds to unlock more speed. We already see these hacks as commonplace.

"Cool". "We in the States" and this virtue signaling hollier than thou thing doesn't mean much though, neither is "what you and I deem arbitrary".

Sure, other MOTOR vehicles don't have speed governors in the US.
"These" vehicles do. Maybe the "ebike Class 1/2/3" etc did not originate here, maybe it is "unamerican" or whatever for you, but it is here and it is for a good reason.

And nobody declared you "guilty" of anything. Do no go full Jordan Petersen here on us and go on a food strike in the imaginary prison you are being thrown in defending your "right for full turbo anywhere" and whatnot.

We were given a "gift" of allowed "semi-motorized" vehicles to be riden on trails that had and maintain a ban on other motorized vehicles. To do that, a loophole was used, carving out class 1 eMTBs/ebikes whatever you want to call them. It is a privilege with conditions.

Choosing to expand that definition because "it would be cool" to raise the speed limits over 20mph, when in reality >95% of people cannot go 1/2 that uphill, is just greedy and unreasonable. It would be "arbitrary" as you call it, if the limit was 10mph and whatnot, and the process that established that was someoen's opinion, i.e. "that's what the local ranger can pedal his bike at, so noone else is allowed to go faster".

Parks and paths and bikeways do not have the staff to just ticket people 24/7 on each and every trailhead or DH or "UH" section . And if is suprising that this "suggestion" is reasonable to you, who finds "unreasonable" to just have a speed limit - again, higher than what the vast majority of rides can even dream on riding uphill at.

We are lucky that they are not ticketing eMTBs just for being eMTBs.
Acting stubborn might get us there again, as it was the case in some state parks. I'd rather be able to ride my speed restricted at speeds my ~3W/kg could not dream of, and have a chance to drag by dad with 1W/kg (or whatever) along, than have you and your "principles" happy.

Do not lose the forest for the tree.

As I said, riding eMTBs on trails is already a privilige, not a right.

 

[Powerslider]

"Cool". "We in the States" and this virtue signaling hollier than thou thing doesn't mean much though, neither is "what you and I deem arbitrary".

Sure, other MOTOR vehicles don't have speed governors in the US.
"These" vehicles do. Maybe the "ebike Class 1/2/3" etc did not originate here, maybe it is "unamerican" or whatever for you, but it is here and it is for a good reason.

And nobody declared you "guilty" of anything. Do no go full Jordan Petersen here on us and go on a food strike in the imaginary prison you are being thrown in defending your "right for full turbo anywhere" and whatnot.

We were given a "gift" of allowed "semi-motorized" vehicles to be riden on trails that had and maintain a ban on other motorized vehicles. To do that, a loophole was used, carving out class 1 eMTBs/ebikes whatever you want to call them. It is a privilege with conditions.

Choosing to expand that definition because "it would be cool" to raise the speed limits over 20mph, when in reality >95% of people cannot go 1/2 that uphill, is just greedy and unreasonable. It would be "arbitrary" as you call it, if the limit was 10mph and whatnot, and the process that established that was someoen's opinion, i.e. "that's what the local ranger can pedal his bike at, so noone else is allowed to go faster".

Parks and paths and bikeways do not have the staff to just ticket people 24/7 on each and every trailhead or DH or "UH" section . And if is suprising that this "suggestion" is reasonable to you, who finds "unreasonable" to just have a speed limit - again, higher than what the vast majority of rides can even dream on riding uphill at.

We are lucky that they are not ticketing eMTBs just for being eMTBs.
Acting stubborn might get us there again, as it was the case in some state parks. I'd rather be able to ride my speed restricted at speeds my ~3W/kg could not dream of, and have a chance to drag by dad with 1W/kg (or whatever) along, than have you and your "principles" happy.

Do not lose the forest for the tree.

As I said, riding eMTBs on trails is already a privilige, not a right.

My viewpoint couldn’t be much more different than yours. I believe it is our (capital R) Right to go wherever we want; and it’s only that there’s places that are restricted for a reason. So, when we don’t agree with restrictions we’ll fight politically to have them removed or revamped. I’m starting from a position that we are free and that any regulations need to have just cause. I don’t share the viewpoint that everything is restricted and we’re lucky when politicians or bureaucrats gift us access. FUCK THAT. I summation- I start from a place of complete freedom and am wiling to accept where freedom is limited. I’m not starting from a place of complete restriction and I need to beg for a little piece of freedom. The government works for us, we’re not subordinate to them.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

My viewpoint couldn’t be much more different than yours. I believe it is our (capital R) Right to go wherever we want; and it’s only that there’s places that are restricted for a reason. So, when we don’t agree with restrictions we’ll fight politically to have them removed or revamped. I’m starting from a position that we are free and that any regulations need to have just cause. I don’t share the viewpoint that everything is restricted and we’re lucky when politicians or bureaucrats gift us access. FUCK THAT. I summation- I start from a place of complete freedom and am wiling to accept where freedom is limited. I’m not starting from a place of complete restriction and I need to beg for a little piece of freedom. The government works for us, we’re not subordinate to them.

ebikes aren't a RIGHT... just like driving a car. While that may be your position... it doesn't reflect reality. I get a Sovereign Citizen, "right to travel" plate and "am I being detained" filmed interaction with law enforcement.... kinda vibe.

 

[Powerslider]

ebikes aren't a RIGHT... just like driving a car. While that may be your position... it doesn't reflect reality. I get a Sovereign Citizen, "right to travel" plate and "am I being detained" filmed interaction with law enforcement.... kinda vibe.

I’m making a much, much larger point than eMTB. The Right is to be free from an oppressive government. Our starting position is that we’re completely free to do whatever we want; then we work backwards from there and add regulations and restrictions where necessary and appropriate. Im pointing out that it’s wrong to think we’re starting from oppression and we’re lucky when politicians or bureaucrats are so kind to grant us a little freedom.

Just recently we saw a great example of this working in practice. Politicians and bureaucrats were telling us internal combustion vehicles were going to be regulated to the point that your only choice was going to be to buy an EV. Americans rejected that and put people in power that removed those restrictions. Same thing can and should happen in regards to eMTB regulations. Try it and you’ll be replaced by someone who more accurately reflects the will of the electorate.

I’ll also add that bike companies really better recognize what buyers want. They/we obviously want more power with every motor generation (even within a motor generation); and no artificial speed limitations. Bike companies are in enough trouble; I can only imagine how much the industry would tank if power output was stagnant.

 

[DIomidis]

I’m making a much, much larger point than eMTB. The Right is to be free from an oppressive government. Our starting position is that we’re completely free to do whatever we want; then we work backwards from there and add regulations and restrictions where necessary and appropriate. Im pointing out that it’s wrong to think we’re starting from oppression and we’re lucky when politicians or bureaucrats are so kind to grant us a little freedom.

Just recently we saw a great example of this working in practice. Politicians and bureaucrats were telling us internal combustion vehicles were going to be regulated to the point that your only choice was going to be to buy an EV. Americans rejected that and put people in power that removed those restrictions. Same thing can and should happen in regards to eMTB regulations. Try it and you’ll be replaced by someone who more accurately reflects the will of the electorate.

I’ll also add that bike companies really better recognize what buyers want. They/we obviously want more power with every motor generation (even within a motor generation); and no artificial speed limitations. Bike companies are in enough trouble; I can only imagine how much the industry would tank if power output was stagnant.

You are bringing up a lot of "larger points", but I am not sure you have a grasp on what you are talking about, sorry.
"Your" position might be that "we" have the complete freedom to do whatever we want, but this is neither universal, nor true.

The idea that we start at 'complete freedom' and work backward is a nice sentiment, but it’s not how public land works. Rights are guaranteed by the Laws of the State, which are built on 'reasonable' restrictions to prevent chaos. By ignoring the 'Well Regulated' aspect of our founding documents, you’re not being an 'Originalist'—you’re just being a fundamentalist. We have trail access because of a specific legal loophole for Class 1 bikes; pushing for 'no limits' is the fastest way to get that loophole closed for everyone.

Absolute freedom is a functional absurdity because your 'Right' to ride a 40mph moto-bike eventually infringes on someone else's 'Right' to a safe, non-motorized trail. Limiting or regulating access isn't an act of oppression; it’s a managed compromise.

If you want more power, you can have it. Even on a public ROAD, with a STREET LEGAL, REGISTERED AND INSURED motor vehicle, that you are LICENSED to operate. You also have the right to access these roads to the exclusion of pedestrians and slow vehicles that cannot do a minimum speed reliable (aka FREEWAYS).

 

[Powerslider]

You are bringing up a lot of "larger points", but I am not sure you have a grasp on what you are talking about, sorry.
"Your" position might be that "we" have the complete freedom to do whatever we want, but this is neither universal, nor true.

The idea that we start at 'complete freedom' and work backward is a nice sentiment, but it’s not how public land works. Rights are guaranteed by the Laws of the State, which are built on 'reasonable' restrictions to prevent chaos. By ignoring the 'Well Regulated' aspect of our founding documents, you’re not being an 'Originalist'—you’re just being a fundamentalist. We have trail access because of a specific legal loophole for Class 1 bikes; pushing for 'no limits' is the fastest way to get that loophole closed for everyone.

Absolute freedom is a functional absurdity because your 'Right' to ride a 40mph moto-bike eventually infringes on someone else's 'Right' to a safe, non-motorized trail. Limiting or regulating access isn't an act of oppression; it’s a managed compromise.

If you want more power, you can have it. Even on a public ROAD, with a STREET LEGAL, REGISTERED AND INSURED motor vehicle, that you are LICENSED to operate. You also have the right to access these roads to the exclusion of pedestrians and slow vehicles that cannot do a minimum speed reliable (aka FREEWAYS).

Yeah I’m definitely speaking to broad concepts; and understand the monumental effort required for change on the ground level.
My relevant point is that I believe speed and power restrictions are excessive regulation and shouldn’t even be part of the class system. I’m not convinced a safe and courteous rider becomes dangerous jerkoff because they’re on a +800W eMTB; and speed is a red herring when it’s only a eMTB concern. It’s a flawed approach and should be move on from entirely.
I contend the legislative motivation has usually been about either eMoto or eCity bikes. eMTB needs to get behind a class system that brings space to the distinction among these different “bikes” without misguided speed and power limitations.
Since I’ve made a career working in sales divisions, I also consider the detrimental effect on new bike sales from a true maximum power limit. Sure, advancements can be made in weight and packaging, but those improvements aren’t exclusive to power regulation. Let the market (riders) find and define the effective power limit.

 

[Mario Antony]

This is really a hot topic.

Reality Check:
To reach "high" speeds (>35km/h) on a flat road, using a pedelec ebike, you need to pedal hard [rpm].

Emtbs have short final drive.
Most emtbs relay on 36t chainring x 10t small cog, and most have a 27.5 rear wheel.

All this, means that you need to rotate your pedals at 90rpm and place around 200W to reach 40ish km/h (200W rider imput + 600W motor).
It's not easy, as rolling a throotle.

Even if motor, supplied 1000W, adding the 200W from the rider, the pedals would need to rotate de at ~140rpm to reach 64km/h.

USA has a 32km/h speed limit, that doesn't sound much, but compared to 25km/h, it definitely makes a big difference.

I for once, having moved to a shorter final drive (34t x 11t), usually don't go over 30ish km/h (pedaling!), but on steep DH runs, I go past 60km/h (no pedalling needed!)

 

[pagheca]

I’m adamantly against arbitrary speed or power limits. Here in the US we don’t use speed or power limits to regulate much faster and heavier vehicles like cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.. Instead we regulate behavior. We should do the same with bicycles. See a need to slow riders down on the trail? Then start ticketing riders for going too fast- analog or electric. This idea that you’re guilty because your bike has a specific capability is absurd and offensive.
The motor manufacturers are going to have to limit power because limiting speed is only going to drive riders to unground workarounds to unlock more speed. We already see these hacks as commonplace.

Once again, @Powerslider: cars, motorcycles, snowmobile etc. requires number plates, insurance and a license. that's the whole point.

I respect different opinions, and certainly there is room for debates about the limits values, etc, but the "other vehicles" example is wrong, because is based on the false assumption that it is forbidden to go over X kmh (or mph) with an ebike, that is not true.

 

[Powerslider]

Once again, @Powerslider: cars, motorcycles, snowmobile etc. requires number plates, insurance and a license. that's the whole point.

I respect different opinions, and certainly there is room for debates about the limits values, etc, but the "other vehicles" example is wrong, because is based on the false assumption that it is forbidden to go over X kmh (or mph) with an ebike, that is not true.

Huh? What state requires a license registration and insurance to operate a motocross bike, snowmobile, or side-by-side off road? Shoot- I think you can even operate a straight up trophy truck without that if you keep it off road! I can be talked into requiring lic/reg/ins if you’re operating any bike on a public roadway though. Is that your position?

However none of them have artificial power or speed restrictions so perhaps you’re reinforcing my point for me.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

This is really a hot topic.

Reality Check:
To reach "high" speeds (>35km/h) on a flat road, using a pedelec ebike, you need to pedal hard [rpm].

Emtbs have short final drive.
Most emtbs relay on 36t chainring x 10t small cog, and most have a 27.5 rear wheel.

All this, means that you need to rotate your pedals at 90rpm and place around 200W to reach 40ish km/h (200W rider imput + 600W motor).
It's not easy, as rolling a throotle.

Even if motor, supplied 1000W, adding the 200W from the rider, the pedals would need to rotate de at ~140rpm to reach 64km/h.

USA has a 32km/h speed limit, that doesn't sound much, but compared to 25km/h, it definitely makes a big difference.

I for once, having moved to a shorter final drive (34t x 11t), usually don't go over 30ish km/h (pedaling!), but on steep DH runs, I go past 60km/h (no pedalling needed!)

90 rpm isn't hard by itself... I typically keep a 80-100 rpm cadence on my analog bikes. Maybe because all the road/gravel I did prior to MTB. I like to spin vs. mash the pedals. Granted, on eMTBs I've noticed a slower cadence because of the power delivery.

There's plenty of full 29'er eMTBs... but 30 mph is probably the current limit for an eMTB with existing drivetrains and a "reasonable" cadence. There's some 9 tooth cassettes out there and with a 38T chainring. That's not an ideal setup for MTB, but if you have a powerful enough motor, why not.

Don't forget the law isn't specific to eMTB, when talking Class I ebikes... so a commuter/road bike would have thinner tires and higher gearing. Thus making it easier to achieve higher speeds.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Huh? What state requires a license registration and insurance to operate a motocross bike, snowmobile, or side-by-side off road? Shoot- I think you can even operate a straight up trophy truck without that if you keep it off road!
None of them have artificial power or speed restrictions so perhaps you’re reinforcing my point for me.

At least in CT, we have very few public and legal places to ride. One is managed by the Army Corps of engineers and the state requires all vehicles to be registered. In this case only motorcycles are allowed, no 3 or 4 wheelers. Same applies to other legal public spot, a state forrest.

Hence I finally sold my dual sport because it was too much work/time to actually ride it off-road... and illegally ripping it around locally was getting old.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

90 rpm isn't hard by itself... I typically keep a 80-100 rpm cadence on my analog bikes. Maybe because all the road/gravel I did prior to MTB. I like to spin vs. mash the pedals. Granted, on eMTBs I've noticed a slower cadence because of the power delivery.

There's plenty of full 29'er eMTBs... but 30 mph is probably the current limit for an eMTB with existing drivetrains and a "reasonable" cadence. There's some 9 tooth cassettes out there and with a 38T chainring. That's not an ideal setup for MTB, but if you have a powerful enough motor, why not.

Don't forget the law isn't specific to eMTB, when talking Class I ebikes... so a commuter/road bike would have thinner tires and higher gearing. Thus making it easier to achieve higher speeds.

All I know is class 3 eliminates that nasty 20 mph cutoff/threshold. I can comfortably pedal 23-25 mph with 32T chainring. This sounds trivial but it is a great feature to me.

 

[pagheca]

I’m making a much, much larger point than eMTB. The Right is to be free from an oppressive government.

The first step is to define what we mean by freedom.

I have lived — truly lived, meaning working, renting an apartment, enrolling my children in school, building a daily life for several years — in, Australia, UK, Chile, Spain, and Italy. And the US. I have also spent extended periods working in several other countries in Europe and every single continent.

In none of these places did I ever felt that I was living under an “oppressive government” simply because there were rules designed to protect the community — such as speed limits or legal limits on blood alcohol levels for drivers.

On the contrary, I often felt reassured knowing that the risk of someone entering a school with a firearm and harming or terrorizing my (or other people) son was extremely low in those countries, because there is no broad “right” to carry military-grade weapons around to protect you from a (imaginary) oppressive government.

In many European countries, I also felt very free knowing that workers typically receive four weeks of paid vacation per year, or that my wife could take long, paid maternity leave — giving families the real freedom to care for their children properly. Or that, whatever is happening with my health, I have "free" healtcare available for me and my family (specially in Italy, Spain and UK).

In my humble opinion, this debate has little to do with freedom itself. It is about protecting and regulating the safety and well-being of the whole community.

It may also be worth looking beyond one national perspective. The world is much larger than the United States, trust me, and many societies have developed different, and more balanced, approaches to the idea of freedom.

It may be that the fact we were never asked to sing the national anthem at school every single morning, but instead spent our time studying geography and world history, plays a key role in developing a more balanced perspective on these issues.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Let's face it, europe is better at implementing, accepting and working with regulation then the US is. I have no comment as to which approach is better, certainly there are examples that point in either direction issue by issue. in terms of this argument, far more countries in europe have a law that is adjacent to 'right to roam'. The US has an aura of assumed freedom, and certainly that was a part of the foundation, but the reality of modern land management and access is far more regulated and complex. You are not free to roam in the us, and trespassing can actually be a felony in certain cases and in the worst cases of a stand your ground state, a potential death sentence. (I am not being dramatic here... in my 30 years of riding mtbs... I know of 3 people that have gotten felony trespassing riding and maintaining unsanctioned trails.)

@Powerslider has opinions that he is obviously entitled to have. His opinions align with the core push/pull of modern american society and politics... This is without a doubt, a country founded in conflict, rebellion and freedom for individuals. (I would add violence to the list, it's a core component of this country, but not relevant to this discussion). The freedom for individuals part is the key component. While american's value freedom over other rights... the truth is that value is placed on the freedom of the individual as being paramount to freedom of all.

I digress, this is what you see playing out in our discourse. Any contentious issue regarding freedom, religion, politics or rights, only has a position of a 55% majority at best. We are always at odds with each other and exist in a narrow margin of majority that is only defined by what the currently drawn map says.

@Powerslider you are in scottsdale, which means you undoubtedly ride your emtb at Hawes (and I'm assuming somo), in the tonto national forest. Rightfully so, hawes is amazing and riding an ebike there is absolutely more then tempting and awesome. That doesn't change the fact that ebikes are not allowed there, and access to that area has at a few times, been a bird on a wire due to ebikes. Trust me when I say that emtb, and by extension, mtb access in national forest areas is at risk in this country because of the proliferation of ebikes that are are perceived as 'motorcycles', by the general public.

That doesn't mean that you're wrong to ride there... if a tree falls in the wood, and no one is there to hear it, does anyone care? But also, we can all admit that there has to be some limit? Let's assume this arms race goes on well beyond what would be our wildest imaginations. What is the tipping point for too much? What would be our solution to controlling and differentiating ourselves from e-mopeds or e-motos? Is a surron with a pedal kit on it, and still throttle controlled a bridge too far for you? What sort of behavior from the public and usage of these would start to impede on your fun, or your perception or your freedom to enjoy this sport?

They key thing to put a spotlight on right now is that brands have a role to play in protecting our access. We must be wary of the disrupters that come into this market and show a complete lack of care for the cracked and crumbling foundation that is mtb access. DJI so far, looks like they may be cut from that cloth, but maybe they are not. Maybe they will engage in the effort to disrupt the industry, push the boundaries, while simultaneously advocating for access for their customers to utilize the products that they make. Or maybe, they head down the path that they have in the drone space and potentially operate on a scorched earth policy.

Time will tell, but no doubt, the actions of these companies will impact this sport and will impact you. Whether you want to admit that and whether that impacts your local riding bubble or not.

 

[pagheca]

Huh? What state requires a license registration and insurance to operate a motocross bike, snowmobile, or side-by-side off road? Shoot- I think you can even operate a straight up trophy truck without that if you keep it off road! I can be talked into requiring lic/reg/ins if you’re operating any bike on a public roadway though. Is that your position?

However none of them have artificial power or speed restrictions so perhaps you’re reinforcing my point for me.

Unless it is private land or a closed track , every single country I know. You are confusing "off road" and "private land".

Example: UK:

To legally ride off-road in the UK, you’ll need to stick to private land with the owner’s permission or use Byways Open to All Traffic (BOATs), which are public paths that allow off-road vehicles. Off-road parks and tracks are also great places to ride legally. Just be sure to avoid public roads unless your bike is road-legal, as you could face fines or penalties. And always check for any local restrictions or specific rules for the area you’re riding in to make sure you're on the right side of the law.

source: Dirt Bike Laws and Licences UK | RideTo

 

[Plummet]

Im in the 750w is enough camp.

This power struggle adding more and more is blurring the lines to moped/moto's.

Why do you need more?

 

[DIomidis]

Huh? What state requires a license registration and insurance to operate a motocross bike, snowmobile, or side-by-side off road? Shoot- I think you can even operate a straight up trophy truck without that if you keep it off road! I can be talked into requiring lic/reg/ins if you’re operating any bike on a public roadway though. Is that your position?

However none of them have artificial power or speed restrictions so perhaps you’re reinforcing my point for me.

You don't have the "Right" to operate "any" Dirt bike or Snowmobile in most places.

Depending on the State or country, you might have some or all the of the limitations based on the operation is restricted by safety laws, including minimum age requirements (often 12–16, with supervision of someone 21+), mandatory helmet use, many trails and public lands have speed limits, and even if there are no power restrictions per se, there are often emission and noise restrictions which do indirectly regulate power.

e.g. for Cali:
Dirt bikes in California must be registered as Off-Highway Vehicles (OHVs) to operate on public lands, requiring a "Green Sticker" (compliant) or "Red Sticker" (non-compliant) issued by the DMV. Registration is valid for two years, expiring on June 30th. Required documents include a REG 343 form, proof of ownership, and a REG 31 form. If you do have a “Green Sticker” = compliant moto, you can ride them in public lands, but that means you have the Noise and emission restrictions built-in by the factory.

If you have a non-compliant moto, you can only ride it on specific dates in public lands, you cannot register it to operate on public roads and you are pretty much limited to closed courses and/or private lands - much like with a 4-wheeled race car. Your State's DMV will have details for your case,

Can you by pass these restrictions, load your non-compliant moto in the back of your truck and ride it anywhere you want? Sure. It is not legal though and we should not assume it is because “i do it all the time”.

Can you operate them without asking anyone? Sure, just like you can ride your throttled eMopped/eMoto on MTB trails and even ride them from your garage to the trailkhead and ride them with no other vehicle’s involvement. Still not legal.

Sure, if noone is there to stop you, you can keep doing it, but...I am of the opinion that trees that fall when noone is around to hear them, still make a sound, and people riding throttled motorized vehicles on trails that are restricted for non motorized vehicles, are simply abusing the lack of enforcement and highly increasing the chances of a crack-down that can ban ALL eMTBs, including Class 1, and a non zero chance of banning all bicycles, because the parks cannot afford policing and distinguishing between eMotos cos-playing as Class 1 and “real” class-1.

Also, form a prior post of yours, these limitations are not "removed" because of popular vote and whatnot.
The US Senate recently went out of their way, changing fillibuster rules to stop California's State Gov from enforcing their prerogative of settign their own CAFE standards. The 50 GOP Senators that did that, did it while representing a far smaller % than the majority of the US Population (like mid 40s%): the Senate itself is a minoritarian body and anyone who cares about democracy and what people think, should find it absurd that California, the most populous state by far, and even Texas, a close 2nd, get to be represented by 2 Senators (more than 15M people per senator) that have the equal say as Senators from Wyoming (under 600K population, i.e. less than 300K people per Senator). And if we want to go full anarcho-capitalist (i.e. what US people call Libertarian), California, a State that has a GDP that excheeds that of the 20 or even 25 of the poorest US States, has to "yield" in what happens within their own borders and NOT PROTECT their citizens and environment as they see fit, so that we do not hurt the bottom line of oil companies who have bought those Senators...i.e. CAFE standards were not a move to "oppress" legal votes, or to discriminate ... yet you will shout thorugh the top of your lungs that OMG the oppression and california and the tyranical goverment who doesn't let us ride our 2-stroke motos on the MTB trails must be stopped, so I guess those heroic Senators did us a solid.

But please, lets keep talking about how Hans Ray is saying all of this because he is a sellout for Bosch...

Please, time after time and post after post you just prove that you are just reacting based on your feelings and "ideals", but these are not hinged in reality. Yes there regulations everywhere and for everyone. You just choose to ignore them or you have the priviledge of you never being aware of them because someone else takes care of things for you.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

@Ride 2d@y

Couldn't quote your post because your response was written within the post you quoted.... anyway. I agree, my experience with Shimano EP801 the cutoff was rather abrupt and it started at 18 mph. Do I wish it was higher for those circumstances, 100%. For me, its not a big enough problem and I don't spend much time needing assistance above 18 mph.

Would it be nice, yes. Would I accept these proposed power/speed "restrictions", as a means to not be burdened more or lose access, 100%.

 

[Powerslider]

You don't have the "Right" to operate "any" Dirt bike or Snowmobile in most places.

Depending on the State or country, you might have some or all the of the limitations based on the operation is restricted by safety laws, including minimum age requirements (often 12–16, with supervision of someone 21+), mandatory helmet use, many trails and public lands have speed limits, and even if there are no power restrictions per se, there are often emission and noise restrictions which do indirectly regulate power.

e.g. for Cali:
Dirt bikes in California must be registered as Off-Highway Vehicles (OHVs) to operate on public lands, requiring a "Green Sticker" (compliant) or "Red Sticker" (non-compliant) issued by the DMV. Registration is valid for two years, expiring on June 30th. Required documents include a REG 343 form, proof of ownership, and a REG 31 form. If you do have a “Green Sticker” = compliant moto, you can ride them in public lands, but that means you have the Noise and emission restrictions built-in by the factory.

If you have a non-compliant moto, you can only ride it on specific dates in public lands, you cannot register it to operate on public roads and you are pretty much limited to closed courses and/or private lands - much like with a 4-wheeled race car. Your State's DMV will have details for your case,

Can you by pass these restrictions, load your non-compliant moto in the back of your truck and ride it anywhere you want? Sure. It is not legal though and we should not assume it is because “i do it all the time”.

Can you operate them without asking anyone? Sure, just like you can ride your throttled eMopped/eMoto on MTB trails and even ride them from your garage to the trailkhead and ride them with no other vehicle’s involvement. Still not legal.

Sure, if noone is there to stop you, you can keep doing it, but...I am of the opinion that trees that fall when noone is around to hear them, still make a sound, and people riding throttled motorized vehicles on trails that are restricted for non motorized vehicles, are simply abusing the lack of enforcement and highly increasing the chances of a crack-down that can ban ALL eMTBs, including Class 1, and a non zero chance of banning all bicycles, because the parks cannot afford policing and distinguishing between eMotos cos-playing as Class 1 and “real” class-1.

Also, form a prior post of yours, these limitations are not "removed" because of popular vote and whatnot.
The US Senate recently went out of their way, changing fillibuster rules to stop California's State Gov from enforcing their prerogative of settign their own CAFE standards. The 50 GOP Senators that did that, did it while representing a far smaller % than the majority of the US Population (like mid 40s%): the Senate itself is a minoritarian body and anyone who cares about democracy and what people think, should find it absurd that California, the most populous state by far, and even Texas, a close 2nd, get to be represented by 2 Senators (more than 15M people per senator) that have the equal say as Senators from Wyoming (under 600K population, i.e. less than 300K people per Senator). And if we want to go full anarcho-capitalist (i.e. what US people call Libertarian), California, a State that has a GDP that excheeds that of the 20 or even 25 of the poorest US States, has to "yield" in what happens within their own borders and NOT PROTECT their citizens and environment as they see fit, so that we do not hurt the bottom line of oil companies who have bought those Senators...i.e. CAFE standards were not a move to "oppress" legal votes, or to discriminate ... yet you will shout thorugh the top of your lungs that OMG the oppression and california and the tyranical goverment who doesn't let us ride our 2-stroke motos on the MTB trails must be stopped, so I guess those heroic Senators did us a solid.

But please, lets keep talking about how Hans Ray is saying all of this because he is a sellout for Bosch...

Please, time after time and post after post you just prove that you are just reacting based on your feelings and "ideals", but these are not hinged in reality. Yes there regulations everywhere and for everyone. You just choose to ignore them or you have the priviledge of you never being aware of them because someone else takes care of things for you.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Perhaps if I make my point more succinctly it’ll be clearer.

I’m proposing a complete overhaul of the class system that wouldn’t be structured around speed and power limits.

 

[Powerslider]

Once again, @Powerslider: cars, motorcycles, snowmobile etc. requires number plates, insurance and a license. that's the whole point.

I respect different opinions, and certainly there is room for debates about the limits values, etc, but the "other vehicles" example is wrong, because is based on the false assumption that it is forbidden to go over X kmh (or mph) with an ebike, that is not true.

My experience doesn’t align with this at all, but it’s missing the forest because of the trees anyway. The point is nobody is putting power and speed limiters on your motorcycle, snowmobile, cars, etc.. even if i suspend disbelief, it provides evidence of a system of regulation without such power/speed limiters.

 

[Mario Antony]

90 rpm isn't hard by itself... I typically keep a 80-100 rpm cadence on my analog bikes. Maybe because all the road/gravel I did prior to MTB. I like to spin vs. mash the pedals. Granted, on eMTBs I've noticed a slower cadence because of the power delivery.

There's plenty of full 29'er eMTBs... but 30 mph is probably the current limit for an eMTB with existing drivetrains and a "reasonable" cadence. There's some 9 tooth cassettes out there and with a 38T chainring. That's not an ideal setup for MTB, but if you have a powerful enough motor, why not.

Don't forget the law isn't specific to eMTB, when talking Class I ebikes... so a commuter/road bike would have thinner tires and higher gearing. Thus making it easier to achieve higher speeds.

To attain "high" Speed on a bike/ebike, you require BIG front chainrings, because you cannot develop pedal force & rpm, unless your drafting - please check time stage and focus on cadence..

Roadbikes normally come with 34/50 compact cranks, but if you want to mush miles at speed, you need to go for 53/39.

I can pedal @150ish max (indoor only!) , and usually I pedal between 75-85 rpm (average candence), because I've trained to pedal at those candences (this is data from road bike and my ebike - flowapp).
Cadences over +90rpm (average cadence), it's hard to maintain, because you need to apply force as well.

All this, just to reafirm: Derestricted Ebike/"MOWPOWE" motors, are not Racing/MadMax machines.

Sure you'll climb a little faster (+5...+8...), but it's still in DH where most carry full speed.

Even Original Surrons, are mellow emotorbikes when compared with 72V mod!
And comparing ebikes with Surons, is like confusing a Semi, with a truck.

Land access is granted through politics.
And what I assume it happens in USA, is that you have too much "socialists" bikers, that are true to core cycling, and don't even think in broadning their views.
Because most of these people, never had ebikes, they prohibited, like communist due, when it's not equal to everyone.

Ebikers need to have a voice and start advocate.
Do you remember, early Honda Motorcycle adds?
Motorcyclists were viewed has outlaws, dirty, smelly, bad maners, etc...
Honda come along and changed that:

"You meet the nicest people on a Honda!"

Today, ebike perception is similar to those outlaw motorcyclists.
Time to move forward!

BTW:
If you accept restrictions today, tomorrow it will be far worse.
Europe is in a doom spiral for the last decade.
It started with energy and carbon neutrality (no more Cool/nuke plants, industries to Africa & Asia), passed to imigration, and now, we're almost losing the Agricultural Sector!!!!
how can someone accept that by 2035 no ICE vehicles are sold new?
To all this, I say : FUCK UE!

 

[Fangs2k]

This thread has generated some really thoughtful and insightful posts, for which I say thank you.

It’s also attracted some, how shall I put it, edgelords suffering from main character syndrome.

Has anybody changed their mind on any of this, or is everybody still on transmit?

 

[pagheca]

This thread has generated some really thoughtful and insightful posts, for which I say thank you.

It’s also attracted some, how shall I put it, edgelords suffering from main character syndrome.

Has anybody changed their mind on any of this, or is everybody still on transmit?

Good question.

Yes, I do have slightly changed my opinion: I’ve realized that the regulation of e-bikes could perhaps be approached differently from the current model, which essentially focuses on limiting pedal assistance to relatively low levels of speed and power.

How exactly to do this, frankly I don’t know, since I’m not an expert in law. However, it seems plausible that the legislative framework could be made more articulated at this point, in order to give more space to the various specific needs that have emerged with the last years development of e-bikes.

Abolish all limits? No, that would obviously pose a huge risk for the community.

 

[Mario Antony]

This thread has generated some really thoughtful and insightful posts, for which I say thank you.

It’s also attracted some, how shall I put it, edgelords suffering from main character syndrome.

Has anybody changed their mind on any of this, or is everybody still on transmit?

Do you expect people change their mind, discussing ideas?

It's like placing a complex 3d model, onto it's view/plane.
Plane & Views can be different, but are all from the same 3d model.

You know... just saying

 

[gordimhor]

I largely agree with Hans Rey . I note that he should have made clear his connection with Bosch. For me the "e" in my mtb and my road bike is there to assist me when I require it and not to replace the effort I have to put in. I live in Scotland and have seen ebikes ridden in a manner that is irresponsible damaging to the trails and unsafe for both the rider and other riders. We have a right of "responsible "access to land in Scotland which applys to pedestrians and not to motor vehicles . You can see where the problem arises if e bicycles become electric motor bikes

 

[Fangs2k]

Do you expect people change their mind, discussing ideas?

It's like placing a complex 3d model, onto it's view/plane.
Plane & Views can be different, but are all from the same 3d model.

You know... just saying

Not necessarily, but to continue your analogy I’d at the very least expect people to understand that somebody else’s view may be different from where they’re standing.

I’d say mission accomplished by Mr Rey, it’s at least got some people thinking and talking about it, even if in reality it will make very little difference to the Mariana Trench like positions some have taken up.

 

[Mario Antony]

Not necessarily, but to continue your analogy I’d at the very least expect people to understand that somebody else’s view may be different from where they’re standing.

I’d say mission accomplished by Mr Rey, it’s at least got some people thinking and talking about it, even if in reality it will make very little difference to the Mariana Trench like positions some have taken up.

I think everyone using a REAL ebike, pedalec, that did MTB for some time, understands each other positions.

Then, there are others, that just enter in the discussion...

 

[QuackFU]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but reading PInkbike, most of the argument isn't the power/performance, but the attitude of the associated riders. Barging their way through, self-entitlement etc...

In the UK i've not seen this attitude at all despite being out in the hills most weekends.

So i'm not sure that the power being set would actually help/change that.

by the same account though, i simply don't understand the want/need for more power. But i've been a MTBer for a long time. Is it more the newer riders who are in this arms-race for power ?

Completely agree about Pinkbike and would never rely on their user base for an objective opinion. I'm a US emtb rider and have experienced none of that negative or entitled attitude either.