How much motor power is enough?

Astro66 said:
And I am happy with the Shimano EP801 with the race firmware. But I still bought the Amflow PL Carbon Pro as well, because I believe there are climbs, that it will do better.

That's my only point. And my answer to the question posed in the Thread Title. If you can get up a slope, without dabbing a foot, because that bike gives your legs the most power to maintain greater momentum, then I want the bike that allows me to cleanly climb the best.

I don't care about manufacturers arms races. I just want the lightest, playful, best climbing EMTB, that can also do the level of downhill I want to do. I. am 60yo. I'm not going to charge downhill at extreme pace. I just can't afford the injuries, when you get it wrong.
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I'm the opposite. Dh performance first and foremost, Get up the hill as fast as practical to blaze the down. The more downs per hour the better.

With that said I do really enjoy a technical steep climb. But that is secondary to my descending needs.
Thus far, no DJI powered bike has made my grade of 170+ rear travel.

Its a moot point for me as ive sold my soul to the crestline devil and wont be changing bike for several years at least.
 
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I'm happy with my Shimano motor and 85Nm of torque.
I'd like a lighter, denser battery with a zillion Wh to allow me to ride on turbo permanently for hours on end because I am a fat lazy git.
 
Plummet said:
I'm the opposite. Dh performance first and foremost, Get up the hill as fast as practical to blaze the down. The more downs per hour the better.

With that said I do really enjoy a technical steep climb. But that is secondary to my descending needs.
Thus far, no DJI powered bike has made my grade of 170+ rear travel.

Its a moot point for me as ive sold my soul to the crestline devil and wont be changing bike for several years at least.
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The Crestline would be the perfect bike for you.

And that is the point I made earlier. The best bike will be the one that is compromised the least, in the way you use it. So that includes how much peak power it produces.

Regarding motors causing compliance issues.

Bikes in Australia are limited to 25kph and 250watts average power.

So people getting concerned about peak power causing compliance issues seems a moot point. The bike is going to provide zero assistance once you hit 25kph. And will only provide peak power for a limited time, and only if you hit a certain cadence.

As long as the speed limit is kept at 25kph, and Average power at 250watts. EMTBs in Australia will be allowed anywhere a MTB is. Comparison to Throttle driven unlimited Ebikes is pointless. They don't remotely behave the same way.
 
Astro66 said:
Bikes in Australia are limited to 25kph and 250watts average power.

So people getting concerned about peak power causing compliance issues seems a moot point. The bike is going to provide zero assistance once you hit 25kph. And will only provide peak power for a limited time, and only if you hit a certain cadence.
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You Aussies and your pesky limits. ;)
You'd think in a country where everything is trying to kill you the moment you walk outside, you'd get some freedoms to off yourself your own way!
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
You Aussies and your pesky limits. ;)
You'd think in a country where everything is trying to kill you the moment you walk outside, you'd get some freedoms to off yourself your own way!
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Mate ...... I'd love the NZ no limits. But the Nanny State advocates would lock us out of everything. LOL
 
for me we long, long ago reached the point where the issue swapped from power to weight


Have a levo (gen 2) and a trek exe , levo has enough power all the time, trek not quite, trek is light enough all the time, levo not quite. So for me the levo wins (just)

be interesting to see if the hpr60 rumours are true, esp if it’s a swappable item as that might be enough.

mind you 120/130 xc, detachable 250-300ish battery (size that another one or two could be carried in a daypack) , 15kg is my holy grail. And say 60-65nm, rebuildable. One lives in hope.
 
Fantastic that bikes are produced with different power and components so you can choose what suits your use, but the coolest thing is that no one else needs to tell you what you need unless they're your mummy - but some think they are😂
 
My experience has been that how much motor assist is given at lower cadences and rider torque input is much more relevant than peak power. My current bikes are both Bosch CX 4 and both pretty heavy. Riding the bikes with standard tune makes them feel far less responsive given the best motor response is at a fairly high cadence. That is fine on fireroads or most single tracks but not for any sort of technical riding whether that is climbing or negotiating any trail that includes sections where "trials" type handling of the bike is needed. I have both bikes tuned to "3" in the Flow app and for me the motor immediately feels completely different. Using EMTB I never need Turbo even on the steepest climbs. My favourite type of trail is natural forest tracks with steep descents. Gravity does most of the work there aided by the weight of the bike and good suspension and brakes, so the motor becomes less relevant there.
So in summary I see no need or indeed benefit in a higher powered motor ( and at 74 I am no young gun!) Staying with existing power levels at around 85nm or 90 nm is fine for me as is a 700 or 750 wh battery. What I would like is a full enduro capable bike with the same range but several kg lighter!! ....ally, not carbon!
 
I have a 2023 giant reign e+3
The motor has 85 nm peak
I've tune the motor to the following
Level 1- 20 nm
Level 2 -30 nm
Level 3 -40 nm
I use mostly these power level for flat and mostly moderate inclines

Level 4 - 60 nm
Level 5 - 85 nm
Used only for very steep inclines

These low Level setting I can get 135 -150 km Range on flats
 
Astro66 said:
The Crestline would be the perfect bike for you.

And that is the point I made earlier. The best bike will be the one that is compromised the least, in the way you use it. So that includes how much peak power it produces.

Regarding motors causing compliance issues.

Bikes in Australia are limited to 25kph and 250watts average power.

So people getting concerned about peak power causing compliance issues seems a moot point. The bike is going to provide zero assistance once you hit 25kph. And will only provide peak power for a limited time, and only if you hit a certain cadence.

As long as the speed limit is kept at 25kph, and Average power at 250watts. EMTBs in Australia will be allowed anywhere a MTB is. Comparison to Throttle driven unlimited Ebikes is pointless. They don't remotely behave the same way.
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I fully agree re picking the correct bike total package. I am super stoked on the Crestline, Its almost the perfect set up for me.

25kph would absolutely suck. NZ bikes are set to 32kph which still sucks, but not as much.
 
Plummet said:
I fully agree re picking the correct bike total package. I am super stoked on the Crestline, Its almost the perfect set up for me.

25kph would absolutely suck. NZ bikes are set to 32kph which still sucks, but not as much.
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*most NZ bikes.
A number of bike shops will happily change the cut-off speed for Shimano motors to 45kmh. Supported by Shimano.
Can't speak for any other brands, but my experiences and those of close friends have been all Shimano and all 100% successful and factory-backed/warranty-safe.
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
*most NZ bikes.
A number of bike shops will happily change the cut-off speed for Shimano motors to 45kmh. Supported by Shimano.
Can't speak for any other brands, but my experiences and those of close friends have been all Shimano and all 100% successful and factory-backed/warranty-safe.
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45kph would be nice for hit fast jumps at the right speed.
 
Astro66 said:
The point everyone seems to be missing, is with a proper EMTB. The motor simply makes your legs more powerful. That's it. In very simple terms. You put 100 watts in through your legs, you get 400 watts out. You put 200watts in. You get 800watts out.

But there's no throttle. You cannot just stand there and motor up the slope. If you put zero watts in. You'll get zero watts. It's like a mechanical advantage tool, except it's electrical.

As long as the power is controllable through the torque you put into your pedals with your legs. There is no limit to the power motors can provide. Stronger legs is always going to be an advantage.

But not everyone can train to have legs that look like Arnie in Terminator. And lots of people ride where they don't need legs like Arnie. But if you enjoy climbing the steepest technical like Chris Akrigg. Then you need the ridiculous power he generates in his legs, or a motor that enhances your own legs.

So as always. It comes down to how you use your EMTB. If charging down technical downhills is your thing, then just using the Motor as a shuttle to get back up. Then you don't need the world's most powerful motor. But if you ride on big adventure rides, where the point to just keep riding, and not needing to stop or walk your bike up difficult terrain, no matter the terrain you come across. Then more controllable power will always help.
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This is correct for the adaptive modes - Your leg power input determines the motor power.
However, Turbo mode gives you the max power simply by turning the pedals. E,g, your legs could be inputting very low power and you will still get max power from the motor.
 
Apparently the EU has been recommended to amend its EPAC regulations to safeguard the classification of compliant motor assist bikes as being the same category as bicycles. One of the recommendations was to limit maximum wattage to 700w .........that if implemented would spell problems for bikes with the DJI motor....at least in the EU....and the UK.

Ps....not sure if that is what the post above is about....I didn't translate it
 
Mikerb said:
Ps....not sure if that is what the post above is about....I didn't translate it
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Auto translates for me.

eg:

"The good news: industry associations have already recognized the risks, and self-regulation with sensible maximum values is already well underway. Motors will soon be regulated to a maximum power of 750 watts, and further parameters are currently being discussed in the committees."
 
I wouldn’t mind 750 watts or 85nm. It’s heaps. But what is silly for emtb - at least for me - is the 25kmh cutoff we have here in Australia - influenced by the EU regs I guess.

But, all that said, on road eebs are different - you have 68 year old, grey haired women getting on them, for first time in 50 years on a bike, and they are hugely unskilled. Imagine them accidentally engaging 1000w at 120nm?

This is the lowest common denominator that’s driven the speed regs, I believe. And will drive power regs now that we have an arms race, too.

So ideally there needs to be a distinction between on road and off road. But how that could be practically be done and enforced, I’ve no idea. I suspect we are stuck with speed limits, and derestricting by those savvy enough to want it.
 
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I think the Bosch SX system is perfect. I rarely if EVER ride in boost/turbo on a full fat bike so the 60mn/600 watts I think is perfect. I would love to see a bike come out with the SX and the modularity like the Crestline to run the 400, 600 or 800 battery. I think that's the sweet spot.

I also agree on the power delivery side too. I ride a Vitus E-Mythique that has 95mn but only 250 watts. The power delivery is so weird on the bike. The more power you put on the pedals the less it puts out. Its really strange. I get used to it until I ride another bike and then the Bafang just leaves me wanting more. I guess it could be firmware but I have no other Bafang to compare it to.
 
Bndit said:
Good article related to this: E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 – Are we dumb?. Most important part: There`s real danger that if ebikes get more powefull you can’t ride them anyplace anymore.
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Imagine a world where there is no technical or steep challenging downhill trails, only service road climbs to groomer blue descents. Then you would want to smash as many laps as possible, get the thrill of speed, and get the climbs done as quickly as possible. Bike weights don't matter, since nothing need be rappelled down or carried up.

This seems to be the world of many youtube ebike reviewers.
Martinintirol said:
would be even happier if the ebikes were not so temperamental, the motors and batteries leave a lot to be desired. Everything is about bringing new stuff to market with a shelf life of just beyond the 2 year warranty period...
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It makes me wonder WHO is pushing for more power and larger batteries. Because I agree, and all I really want is reliability and ability to service and upgrade my existing motor system. Or a better warranty scheme. Realistically motors have a shorter lifespan than wheels or frames at this point. I don't really know anyone who rides hard and has gotten more than 2-3yrs out of a motor, usually half that- and that's across all brands.
 
Ridgydidge said:
I wouldn’t mind 750 watts or 85nm. It’s heaps. But what is silly for emtb - at least for me - is the 25kmh cutoff we have here in Australia - influenced by the EU regs I guess.

But, all that said, on road eebs are different - you have 68 year old, grey haired women getting on them, for first time in 50 years on a bike, and they are hugely unskilled. Imagine them accidentally engaging 1000w at 120nm?

This is the lowest common denominator that’s driven the speed regs, I believe. And will drive power regs now that we have an arms race, too.

So ideally there needs to be a distinction between on road and off road. But how that could be practically be done and enforced, I’ve no idea. I suspect we are stuck with speed limits, and derestricting by those savvy enough to want it.
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The decision regarding maximum motor assist mode in the EU regs was not related to what would be an acceptable speed limit but rather to the issue of type approval. EPACS do not require type approval and that saves the brands a lot of expense and product launch delay. Faster assist speeds it was argued would need all elements of the bike.....frame, wheels , tyres, brakes and tyres, to be submitted for type approval to demonstrate each component was strong/effective enough to ensure rider safety. It would also likely limit what could be legally changed on the bike after purchase. If the EU regulations are going to be renewed the issue of "hacking" may also be revisited. Currently that is dealt with by obliging brands to take effective software measures to prevent it but they probably realize by now that those measures are usually defeated.
 
Mikerb said:
Currently that is dealt with by obliging brands to take effective software measures to prevent it but they probably realize by now that those measures are usually defeated.
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Doesn't sound like it when Bosch owners try to hack the software.
 
Mikerb said:
The decision regarding maximum motor assist mode in the EU regs was not related to what would be an acceptable speed limit but rather to the issue of type approval. EPACS do not require type approval and that saves the brands a lot of expense and product launch delay. Faster assist speeds it was argued would need all elements of the bike.....frame, wheels , tyres, brakes and tyres, to be submitted for type approval to demonstrate each component was strong/effective enough to ensure rider safety. It would also likely limit what could be legally changed on the bike after purchase. If the EU regulations are going to be renewed the issue of "hacking" may also be revisited. Currently that is dealt with by obliging brands to take effective software measures to prevent it but they probably realize by now that those measures are usually defeated.
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Funny then how the nanny states (EU, Aus) have a completely different view on this to the freedom states (US, NZ). One of these groupings has got to be misguided - and I have a hunch which one.
 
Polar said:
Doesn't sound like it when Bosch owners try to hack the software.
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From the comments about derestriction I see here and other forums there is a time delay between motor software updates and the sellers of derestriction systems updating their products to bypass any new attempts to prevent it........ even the Bosch Smart System can now be hacked apparently.

Ps I am not a supporter of hacking.....it endangers the classification of our bikes as bicycles....albeit I sympathise with those who feel 25kph max assist is too slow.
 
Mikerb said:
..,
Ps I am not a supporter of hacking.....it endangers the classification of our bikes as bicycles....albeit I sympathise with those who feel 25kph max assist is too slow.
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To put it bluntly, a minority of selfish unthinking eMTB owners are likely, if they continue to push the boundaries, to force all eMTB's into a motorised vehicle category requiring registration, insurance, annual safety inspections (aka as MOT'S in the UK), and formal riding tests (licences) to ensure riders are able to properly control their vehicles.
 
irie said:
To put it bluntly, a minority of selfish unthinking eMTB owners are likely, if they continue to push the boundaries, to force all eMTB's into a motorised vehicle category requiring registration, insurance, annual safety inspections (aka as MOT'S in the UK), and formal riding tests (licences) to ensure riders are able to properly control their vehicles.
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There is a groundswell of awareness of derestricted eebs and e-scooters being ridden dangerously here in Straya - often fat bikes with surfboards attached (a huge culture for the surf grommets), but also bike path commuters etc etc.

I have a friend who got hit on the footpath by an e-scooter going way too fast while she was walking in the city. She is ok but really quite fearful now about her walk from the train station to work.

This is the biggest driver for regulatory interest (and rightly should be). Apart from the trails access issue in the States, I don’t see NZ-limits emtb riding per se as a major problem. Still, the unfortunate power arms race that’s developed since dji’s debut will swing the spotlight our way. 😢

IMG_8249.jpeg
 
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I’m 17 stone and ride a canyon strive on cfr Ltd with Bosch cx race 85Nm .
I would not want anymore power as don’t feel I get a good work out and not get fitter .
I find it to be perfect , I use trail plus a lot mtb on steep stuff and race on steep fire road climbs . Keep ya 100 Nm I would just get fat lol
 
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