How much motor power is enough?

[Bontee]

I’m 17 stone and ride a canyon strive on cfr Ltd with Bosch cx race 85Nm .
I would want anymore power as don’t feel I get a good work out and not get fitter .
I find it to be perfect , I use trail plus a lot mtb on steep stuff and race on steep fire road climbs . Keep ya 100 Nm I would just get fat lol

I agree Pazman,If you need more than 85nM then you need to get more exercise or buy a motorbike

 

[Bontee]

about 6000 watts. this is the future of emtb

Bonnell 775 MX

The 775 MX is in a category all its own: a powerhouse that fuses the nimble precision of a downhill mountain bike with the raw power of a lightweight dirt bike.

ridebonnell.com

Nice in the US baked bun but useless over here in the UK.
That is a motorcycle,pure and simple,you would need roadtax (VED),insurance,MOT,driving license ,helmet (by law) and would be completely illegal off road unless on private land ,and quite rightly so.

 

[Polar]

If you need more than 85nM then you need to get more exercise or buy a motorbike

BS

 

[jimslade]

This article and discussion is why I sold my Levo and bought a Levo SL.

My Levo had too much power I almost never used (rarely rode in Turbo) at the expense of so much extra weight.

 

[Bontee]

BS

Not at all,not sure why you think that.The logical progression is that you end up with a bike than more resembles a motorcycle than an e mountain bike.
Where exactly would you draw the line at legal use of a pedalec and illegal use of a motorcycle disguised as a pushbike ?(in the UK)
Just curious.

 

[Polar]

Not at all,not sure why you think that.The logical progression is that you end up with a bike than more resembles a motorcycle than an e mountain bike.
Where exactly would you draw the line at legal use of a pedalec and illegal use of a motorcycle disguised as a pushbike ?(in the UK)
Just curious.

I'll try to help you with your curiosity, which stems from the fact that no one knows the physical condition of others, so to say that if 85nm is not enough, they should start exercising is simply arrogant and bs to say it mildly.
Also some use an emtb in urban areas for fun or commuting and not even close to a emtb trail area.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

From Emountainbike magazine:​

"How much motor power is enough? The peak power race with S-Works 3.1 and DJI Avinox M1​

Since the launch of the DJI Avinox M1, a new hype has emerged around maximum power and torque – and we get the excitement. More always sounds better, right? Same with cars. But long-term, this trend could backfire, and we believe it’s time to settle on a more reasonable level.

More power and torque also mean more wear and tear, more stress on the motor system, and – especially in steep terrain or depending on the assist mode– significantly less range than you’d expect, even with big batteries. What we need to avoid at all costs is a future where batteries keep getting bigger and bikes heavier, just to deliver range for support modes most riders don’t even use.

Specs might sell bikes – but in the end, traction control and power modulation are far moreI think important than raw output."

It seems to me a very important point on which the future of our beloved electric bicycles is based. What do you think?

High Rock Ruti

I think the reception to the DJI speaks for itself, overwhelmingly positive. Buyers want more power and speed. I have a Bosch race motor and I love it, always my first choice.

Warm Regards Ruit

 

[Bontee]

I'll try to help you with your curiosity, which stems from the fact that no one knows the physical condition of others, so to say that if 85nm is not enough, they should start exercising is simply arrogant and bs to say it mildly.
Also some use an emtb in urban areas for fun or commuting and not even close to a emtb trail area.

Not at all,I still don’t see your point Polar.I know plenty of folks a lot older than me that find 85nM masses of power and i’m 64 and in good shape,an good aquaintance of mine is 84 and is pretty frail and finds this level of power far more than he needs.
Your arguement that some use the bike in an urban environment refutes your point about power levels ,it doesn’t support your arguement in any way.
Unless of course you are advocating for higher power and higher speed limits,which brings us back to discussing the legality of pedalecs vs illegal over powered electric motorcycles.
Just to be clear is that what you are advocating for ?

 

[TorAtle]

I am pretty confident that a lot of people that do not believe they are using the full 85Nm torque or full 600W of power actually do a number of times during a ride. A "trail" mode may be set to a multiplier of 2.5 (a little over half of the max 4x or "turbo" mode). Input 240W, which most riders should be able to for a short while, and you're now hitting the power limiter which is annoying as you can feel the power plateauing. Same as the speed limiter, really.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Don't know if it's a power thing or not, but a boost switch (no pedalling) would help me out no end on tricky ascents (EP8 rider with no overrun) if only for a few seconds!

 

[Bontee]

Don't know if it's a power thing or not, but a boost switch (no pedalling) would help me out no end on tricky ascents (EP8 rider with no overrun) if only for a few seconds!

Hi Amber valley,I know what you mean ,I have an ep8 my wife has the ep801 tuned with over-run,Having tried both I prefer no over-run but she likes it.I think this is a marmite feature ,love it or hate it.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Hi Amber valley,I know what you mean ,I have an ep8 my wife has the ep801 tuned with over-run,Having tried both I prefer no over-run but she likes it.I think this is a marmite feature ,love it or hate it.

You must be a better rider than me then, pal, as on really steep rock strewn ascents even a small bolder can stop me dead in my tracks (no forward momentum to carry me over the rocks).

 

[Bontee]

You must be a better rider than me then, pal, as on really steep rock strewn ascents even a small bolder can stop me dead in my tracks (no forward momentum to carry me over the rocks).

I doubt I am a better rider Amber,we all ride slightly differently.
All the best

 

[Plummet]

What I have discovered over the last couple of days is that the max output figures are only part of the picture and doesn't neccessarily transfer to more speed when riding up tech.

I've been on gen 4 cx bosch 85nm for 18 months and riding with mates on gen 3 cx bosch and shimano ep801. Typically we would ride neck and neck up the steep tech ups. Sometimes i'd clean something my mates couldn't and vice versa. We would get to the top at a similar time.

Enter Gen5 bosch and immediately i'm cleaning multiple features my gen 3-4 bosch and shimano mates can't. Not one or two things, a whole bunch of things. Now im not immediately that much better than my mates. If anything they are better than me.

On paper all the options above have similar peak power and torque levels.
In practice there is a step change of difference.

 

[charleyc]

I think the reception to the DJI speaks for itself, overwhelmingly positive. Buyers want more power and speed.

I think you're projecting your own interests a little bit here. My friends and I are all quite interested in the DJI system but none of us want more power or speed.

What we like about the DJI system is that it is lightweight and compact. I'm sure we're not the only ones who primarily like the idea of a full-power EMTB with the shape and weight of an SL EMTB. Personally, I would find the DJI system more appealing if it maxed out at 750W, since then I wouldn't be worried about it eventually being banned from the trails.

 

[surlyrides]

I think the thing missing from this discussion is the fact that currently, e-bikes are mountain bikes. Which means that they share componentry and geometry and wheels, etc with regular mountain bikes. If the power or weight gets too great then these bikes will no longer be able to share componentry and parts and technology with regular mountain bikes and that would be a loss for the e-bike industry because there will always be way more regular mountain bikes than e-bikes.

So the power can only get so much more before too much strain is placed on the component tree so that specialized component tree needs to be designed and made for e-bikes and then there is a fork in the industry. That might work if ebike's got popular enough but it could also make it worse for both camps.

For my own part, I own about five e-bikes and have owned a few more with varying motors and I ride mostly downhill Enduro trails and 2 to 5-hour days sometimes where I have to carry my bike over large mountains that can't be climbed because they are too technical. For these kinds of rides the best bike is either my specialized kenevo SL or my focus jam 2 SL with fazua. I like having a lighter weight, more maneuverable, poppy bike instead of a 25kg smash wagon. Both are fun but I prefer 18-19kg.

I'm 58 and still doing ok and my sweet spot is about 60 to 70nm - I like to pedal and don't need much more than that to do all the riding I do. I can do 4-5 hours with 2000m of climbing and 600wh.

The current dji power weight and battery will be plenty for me but I look forward to lighter versions because I want dji power (or less) and range with 15 kilos and 170/170 63.5....

 

[jeanmarc]

Well here's my 2 cents on this. At 68, as a lifelong biking enthusiast, in decent shape, with a brand new left hip, I spent the last 5 years on a 85Nm emtb and never felt I needed more power. I can imagine my younger self wanting (not needing) more power though… Where is the line between a motorcycle an a pedal assist mtb? My vote goes to stronger Class 1 regulation & information to protect trail access. Cheers!

 

[TorAtle]

I think a 120 kg 80 year old bloke with asthma and bad knees should get up a steep road at a decent pace. He should be able to enjoy cycling as much as the rest of us.

 

[2WHLFUN]

According to the Alex Bike Tester youtube channel the DJI motor is going to get a government mandated detune

 

[Matt van]

I find when Im in different modes I ride differently and even though I'm in turbo I felt I was standing up a bit and using different muscles, so was feeling good about it

 

[BAh30]

24' rise. ep6 85nm/500w max matched with a 32T 11-51 seems to be more than enough. I mostly use eco/trail mode which i have set up 45/500w 60nm/500w.

 

[flash]

According to the Alex Bike Tester youtube channel the DJI motor is going to get a government mandated detune

That muppet is a bitter and disgruntled arse who, for some reason, has an anti-DJI agenda. He also makes stuff up.

Gordon

 

[High Rock Ruti]

From Emountainbike magazine:​

"How much motor power is enough? The peak power race with S-Works 3.1 and DJI Avinox M1​

Since the launch of the DJI Avinox M1, a new hype has emerged around maximum power and torque – and we get the excitement. More always sounds better, right? Same with cars. But long-term, this trend could backfire, and we believe it’s time to settle on a more reasonable level.

More power and torque also mean more wear and tear, more stress on the motor system, and – especially in steep terrain or depending on the assist mode– significantly less range than you’d expect, even with big batteries. What we need to avoid at all costs is a future where batteries keep getting bigger and bikes heavier, just to deliver range for support modes most riders don’t even use.

Specs might sell bikes – but in the end, traction control and power modulation are far more important than raw output."

It seems to me a very important point on which the future of our beloved electric bicycles is based. What do you think?

High Rock Ruti

I have the Bosch race motor, and I'll choose it over any of my other bikes, 50 watts more may sound piddling but it makes a large difference. I want more power, period. Let us not devolve into spurious arguments about trail deterioration, motorcycles or trail access. No one was put off when first 70, 80, 85, 90 and 95 NM. The bikes have come too far to go backwards, you can see that low power lightweight is already fading, as those smarter than me (that's most) have opined, want more exercise turn the power down. The only time I ride out of turbo (high) is to save battery when low, or traction when super slippery. Uphill tech is the province of emtb, with 120nm what was unridable is now in reach, until we can have 240NM.

Warm Regards Ruti I

 

[Account Deleted]

I’m fortunate to have 3 EMTBs, none of them cutting edge, a Specialized SL1.1 with the 35Nm Mahle, a Focus with 75Nm Shimano E8000 and a Marin Rift Zone EL with the Bosch SX 55Nm motor.

Tooks do you still have the Marin Rift Zone EL? I'm keen on a Bosch SX ebike, I've been a bit apprehensive though because of rattle reported by some. I've seen a couple of vids on the Rift Zone, including Robs, and it doesn't seem like a problematic amount of noise. It gets great reviews. It's a bit heavier but I guess that weights is in whole frame not at the front end like a big battery...

Not to mention I can get a pretty great spec for a lower price than basically anything else at much lower spec. How do you find it?

There's a couple more Bosch SX bikes I'm looking at but I think the consensus is a lot of rattle (Norco, Merida) but maybe frame design of the Marin helps?

 

[Fangs2k]

Tooks do you still have the Marin Rift Zone EL? I'm keen on a Bosch SX ebike, I've been a bit apprehensive though because of rattle reported by some. I've seen a couple of vids on the Rift Zone, including Robs, and it doesn't seem like a problematic amount of noise. It gets great reviews. It's a bit heavier but I guess that weights is in whole frame not at the front end like a big battery...

Not to mention I can get a pretty great spec for a lower price than basically anything else at much lower spec. How do you find it?

There's a couple more Bosch SX bikes I'm looking at but I think the consensus is a lot of rattle (Norco, Merida) but maybe frame design of the Marin helps?

I do, just upgraded the suspension on it actually!

I’ve only done a few hundred miles on it so far, and that’s been mainly at forest trail centres, my local routes and a bit of Lake District stuff and so far it doesn’t rattle.

It’s not a lightweight per se, from memory mine is about 21.5kg/47lbs in this setup (140mm rear/170mm front) and the tyres are more trail orientated. I put the longer fork on to slacken the geometry a bit.

I’d usually use an angleset headset to do that but annoyingly it has a proprietary headset setup which means you can’t press one in.

I quite like the SX motor, it seems to reward you if you put a bit more effort in, but the 55Nm is also a good assist on turbo if you’re knackered and need to get up that hill. Mine hasn’t got the 60Nm upgrade yet, supposed to be coming via the Flow App in ‘Autumn’ so shouldn’t be too far away.

 

[deserthi]

Nice in the US baked bun but useless over here in the UK.
That is a motorcycle,pure and simple,you would need roadtax (VED),insurance,MOT,driving license ,helmet (by law) and would be completely illegal off road unless on private land ,and quite rightly so.

It might be useless to you, living in a country where there are anal retentive laws for ebikes but the Bonnell 775 that even though it has a 6000 watt motor they limit it to 3000 watts is so much fun on wild trails while at the same time, on low settings is perfectly in line with other ebikes with 1000watts of power. Sorry about your countries stupid ebike laws.

 

[F4Flyer]

Pretty much any eMTB has much more power than I need. I look at manufacturer reputation/familiarity, geometry, frame stiffness, and other frame features. These have always been my criteria.

 

[Bontee]

It might be useless to you, living in a country where there are anal retentive laws for ebikes but the Bonnell 775 that even though it has a 6000 watt motor they limit it to 3000 watts is so much fun on wild trails while at the same time, on low settings is perfectly in line with other ebikes with 1000watts of power. Sorry about your countries stupid ebike laws.

Actually our laws fit in very well with the trail network we have,We have very different trails to you ,there is little need or requirement to have anything more on the open moorland and mountain trails we have here.Tight narrow rocky singletrack and heathland .Anything more than a normal e mountain bike would be a liability and would completely defeat the fact that we can ride where motorcycles simply can’t go and wouldn’t be allowed to .
Our laws make our mountain biking better not worse.

 

[F4Flyer]

I am old school. and what I love about some manufacturers and I discovered this over the years- some can truly build frames like most cannot. Companies like Ventana, Turner, Pivot, (Titus back in the day) all knew how to build stiff frames that were laterally stable on off-camber trails, fast G-Outs, and generally janky and fast trails. They differed from Specialized, Intense, and most of the others. Pivot still does this well. I also think that with eMTBs, the frames have to be a bit heavy and so it is easier to do this. Chasing grams on eMTB frames will result in a flexer frame so not the best area to shave weight. I still dislike flexy frames. Some manufacturers laughably said they design flex into the frames...never heard a dumber thing. Lateral flex sucks. They soon gave up saying that. Sometimes it is in the front triangle but even worse in the rear stays and the junction between the front and rear triangle.

 

[Thumper33]

I just want to put in my thoughts. I have a 2022 Turbo Levo and it's set a bar for me. I used to race dirt bikes and xc mtbs. The 700ish watts I get from this bike is all I have ever wanted. When I saw that the new version has more power, I thought how much that's just marketing. I don't want to say "nobody needs more power", but 700W is plenty in my opinion, and I'm climbing the steepest hills already.