How long before motors start incorporating gears?

[miPbiP]

Is it plausible?

 

[R120]

Yes, already being done by Continental on their bike motor. Quite a few threads on the subject, main issue at the moment is bulk and size of doing it.

 

[Marcelfacd]

Dont think so, what if you go beyond the speed limit or out of power. You’ll have to move the motor all by yourself.
It would also negatively influence the form factor and beside that, ...no fan of incorparating multiple drive techniques in one package (drive and gearing)

 

[R120]

Actually I think gearboxes are the future for all MTB's not just bikes, its long been the holy grail, because you minimise maintenance, move weight off the rear end of the bike which improves the unsprung weight and suspension performance, and allows you to build a stronger wheel due to not needing to accomodate the cassette, plus you dont have chainline issues, or a derailleur hanging off the bike just waiting to get bent in a crash

The main problem with gearbox bikes at the moment is that they weight a lot, and tend not to be able to shift under load.

 

[Marcelfacd]

Gearboxes and incorporating gears in a motor are different things.
The big backdraw of gearboxes is that it gives you a load of drag simply because you have to move a s**tload of sprockets and all. Why make it heavier, more complex and less efficient?
One day something will inevitably come up.....no time soon though

 

[R120]

your not wrong, but when someone cracks it, and makes a lightweight smooth changing gearbox then the industry will jump on it

 

[Marcelfacd]

your not wrong, but when someone cracks it, and makes a lightweight smooth changing gearbox then the industry will jump on it

Yep, and it will be cracked.....maybe even in our lifetime ?
Personally think the answer may be in a CVT like solution

 

[R120]

that's what the continental motor system uses, or a variant of it

Continental Bicycle Systems - Drive Units

 

[Al Boneta]

I can’t wait to open a bicycle transmission/gearbox shop.
“Do you do brakes and tires?”
“Nah, we only fix the tranny”
Can’t wait to say that everyday

 

[Zimmerframe]

Here's a short video of the internals of the nuvinci, which is what continental have mated with their motor .. so no physical gears.


Or maybe someone will be inspired by Koenigsegg's Jesco gearbox which throws all the normal concepts in the bin and starts again so you need less gears which are doubled up in different configurations to give you more speeds.

No, I'm not suggesting you stuff a 90kg dual clutch gearbox on your MTB, that would weigh more than my 24kg Kers system .. but a simpler, considerably smaller and lighter system could be the way to go .. not even Gary in a rage has 1600hp.... maybe 1000, but not 1600 ..

 

[ninjichor]

Revonte is an interesting one in development. Wouldn't expect it too soon. Maybe some decent models in 2023?

 

[TommyBall]

The battery tech has to get to the point where it can offset the extra weight. Or the size of the battery is smaller to a gearbox and motor can fill part of the down tube. Would be super expensive for the materials to be light and durable. Added to that extra maintenance costs.

It's a really cool thought. If you had a hydraulic setup then you could potentially be looking at having an automatic. Most of these only have 3 gears... CVT idea is great but again maintenance is key along with the space to have the drums setup.

We ain't far away from bionic limbs so we might see this sooner!

Great post btw!

 

[TommyBall]

that's what the continental motor system uses, or a variant of it

Continental Bicycle Systems - Drive Units

Should of watched that first. Joys of slow internet at the moment.

Much simpler than i thought it would be. The fine control would be that hard bit and reliability.

God it's bad enough when you mince a derailer.

 

[Slowroller]

I think it's inevitable, especially as motors get more torque-y. Every year motors get stronger and we're still relying on mtb drivetrains that at some point, aren't going to be up to the task. By the time you ditch all the cables, pizza pie cassettes and mech, it's only like 2 pounds more as it is now, and that is for a gearbox with a 600% range, much more than we need. I bet some clever engineers are working on integrated systems that will only be a pound and change heavier. I for one welcome our future gearbox overlords. Besides the fact that they last FOREVER, gearbox bikes ride better moving the weight to the BB.

What's The Weight Difference Between Derailleur and Pinion / Rohloff Bikes? - CyclingAbout.com

Derailleur vs Gearbox: Nicolai Ion 16 vs Ion GPI - Review - Pinkbike

 

[Gary]

I'd quite like them to incorporate bearings that last more than 500 miles first TBH

 

[Flatslide]

I assume many in British DH cycling have come across Allen Millyard after he built this internal gearbox DH rig for his son back in '07. I wonder if the design could be useful for an e-mtb.

 

[wepn]

No doubt the experts will present their judgements that they're too heavy, too expensive, too clunky, too unorthodox, whatever else. Maybe not.

 

[Mabman]

Seems like the concept has been developed by a big player and soon to hit the market?

French automotive giant enters e-bike drivetrain market

PARIS, France - Increasing e-bikes sales are still attracting more and more automotive suppliers to the industry. The latest newcomer is French Valeo, who saw a hike in e-bike sales on their home market. The company has adapted its 48V motors for the electrification of bicycles.

www.bike-eu.com

Doesn't look like a light weight contender but the implications for commuter and cargo bikes could be a game changer.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Seems like the concept has been developed by a big player and soon to hit the market?

French automotive giant enters e-bike drivetrain market

PARIS, France - Increasing e-bikes sales are still attracting more and more automotive suppliers to the industry. The latest newcomer is French Valeo, who saw a hike in e-bike sales on their home market. The company has adapted its 48V motors for the electrification of bicycles.

www.bike-eu.com

View attachment 47588

Doesn't look like a light weight contender but the implications for commuter and cargo bikes could be a game changer.

Indeed .. the same one was brought up in another thread earlier today :

Should e bikes have gearboxes?

Here's an overview on gearboxes: https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gear/internal-gearbox-advantages-drawbacks-and-future-possibilities-for-apocalypse-ready-mountain-bikes/ The primary reason gearboxes haven't seen widespread use on regular bikes is because of the added weight and the efficiency...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[mak]

Is it only me that gets satisfaction from clicking down or up the box on a well set up conventual system?

 

[Mabman]

Indeed .. the same one was brought up in another thread earlier today :

Should e bikes have gearboxes?

Here's an overview on gearboxes: https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gear/internal-gearbox-advantages-drawbacks-and-future-possibilities-for-apocalypse-ready-mountain-bikes/ The primary reason gearboxes haven't seen widespread use on regular bikes is because of the added weight and the efficiency...

www.emtbforums.com

So that means I'm first loser I guess? I did look through the headers and this is the thread that popped up. I'm so sorry that I provided info that already was proprietary to another user on another thread but at least mine included an illustration

 

[Zimmerframe]

So that means I'm first loser I guess? I did look through the headers and this is the thread that popped up. I'm so sorry that I provided info that already was proprietary to another user on another thread but at least mine included an illustration

Arguably, this is the original thread... So you put it in the correct place .?

 

[TPEHAK]

Gearbox in the motor has safety issues. The chainring rotates significantly faster than you pedal and your leg pans sleeve can be sucked in between the chain/belt and the the chainring/pulley with dramatic consequences.

The chainring area must be completely covered by shroud on ebikes with middle gearbox.

 

[apac]

Here is a new article about the Valeo mid drive unit with 7 internal gears... Valeo Mid drive with integrated Effigear 7-speed transmission

 

[Zimmerframe]

It's interesting that with the Valeo unit they've put the output shaft/chainring on the crank shaft :

Where as the default effigear outputs separately :

As @TPEHAK has mentioned and was discussed in the other thread. You then have a chainring spinning at a different rate to the cranks/your feet/ankles - so glancing the chain ring is no longer just a touch of something moving at the same speed (or feeding your trousers in when you're 12 years old and forgot about socks or bicycle clips) But instead, it's a chainsaw MM's from your body.

So this really needs some kind of guard/protection. On the flip side, you could then set it up so it's constantly turning with the wheel, so you could then have future mid-drives with re-gen/engine braking .

 

[Rusty]

I think probably what will eventuate is something that has already been tested - an internal derailleur.
From memory when I read up on this a few years back the problem was width. However, with boost spacing I don't see that as too much of an issue.
Have to see if I can find the article. Basically the pedal crankshaft had a sliding sprocket on it with a spring loaded jockey wheel that kep[t tension on a chain that connected to an 8 speed cassette that was on a jack-shaft above the crankshaft. On the outside of that was a smallish sprocket with the chain to the rear wheel from there. I think the concept was used on a couple downhill bikes.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think probably what will eventuate is something that has already been tested - an internal derailleur.
From memory when I read up on this a few years back the problem was width. However, with boost spacing I don't see that as too much of an issue.
Have to see if I can find the article. Basically the pedal crankshaft had a sliding sprocket on it with a spring loaded jockey wheel that kep[t tension on a chain that connected to an 8 speed cassette that was on a jack-shaft above the crankshaft. On the outside of that was a smallish sprocket with the chain to the rear wheel from there. I think the concept was used on a couple downhill bikes.

I'm guessing you're talking about the Honda Rn01 ?

Which had a derailleur stuffed in the middle basically ..

 

[Rusty]

I'm guessing you're talking about the Honda Rn01 ?

Which had a derailleur stuffed in the middle basically ..

Yup, but dammit I forgot it was the Honda - I got to 'ride' that when the worlds were at Rotorua. When I say ride - I mean coast down a gentle slope while sitting on it.

 

[Slowroller]

Guess how long that short chain inside the Honda would last on an ebike?

 

[Russell]

I need to start saving