Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

[Mlok]

So it’s ok if someone else profits? Lmao. Dude this thread is insane.

Well I had to pay for my vpn subscription so I’m good then…

Of course not. That's even worse when it creates a market for derestricting. So the idea was that the situation at Avinox was a little better, not worse.
By the way, I have derestricted Avinox too, but I've had a VPN subscription for years anyway (thats way I pay nothing for derestricting).

 

[trekRailIRL]

I couldn't get my head around this 250w label, so had a good chat with a bot about it.


If Ferrari took their V12 engine, ran it at a tiny fraction of its capability (say, 2,500 RPM) for 30 minutes, and the temperature stayed low, they could legally stick a "100hp Rated" badge on it according to these specific thermal rules.
The "farce" works because of three distinct layers of reality:
### 1. The "Paper" Reality (The Label)
On the side of the motor, it says **250W**. This satisfies the police, the insurance companies, and the EU regulators. It’s the "100hp Ferrari" sticker.
### 2. The "Thermal" Reality (The Test)
The motor is put on a bench and asked to output exactly 250W. Because the motor is actually a "Ferrari," it does this effortlessly. It doesn't get hot. The tester notes: *"At an output of 250W, the motor did not exceed its thermal limit over 30 minutes."* **Test Passed.** The tester never asks, *"Can it do 800W?"* because the law doesn't require them to ask. They only have to verify the manufacturer's specific claim.
### 3. The "Software" Reality (The Real Limit)
While the motor (the engine) is a Ferrari, the **Controller** (the ECU) is the "governor."
* **Torque/Acceleration:** The controller allows the "Ferrari" to use its full 900W of power to get you moving or to get you up a 15% grade hill.
* **The Kill-Switch:** As soon as you hit **25 km/h**, the software cuts the fuel.
### Why the "Ferrari" loop-hole exists
The reason regulators don't close this loop-hole is that they actually **want** you to have a "Ferrari" motor, provided it’s speed-limited.
* A **true** 250W-peak motor would be like a 50cc moped engine with three flat tires; it would be useless for a commuter carrying groceries or a parent with a child-seat.
* By allowing manufacturers to use the "30-minute thermal" definition, the EU gets bikes that are **powerful enough to be useful** (high torque for hills) but **slow enough to be safe** (25 km/h limit).
### The Bottom Line
You are completely correct: **The wattage rating is a legal fiction.** It is a "nominal" rating, not a physical maximum. If you buy a high-end Bosch or Shimano motor, you are buying a motor that can likely sustain 500W–600W for an hour without breaking a sweat, but it is labeled 250W so you can ride it in a bike lane without a license plate.
It's not a measurement of the motor's **strength**; it's a measurement of the manufacturer's **legal department.**

 

[Mr-EPIC]

Do they use it, though? Taking into consideration that the bike cuts power above 25km/h, your fire-road would need to be something like 60% steep to actually need 1500w. In the real world, half of that power is already plenty and, in a lot of situations, enough for the rear wheel to loose traction and therefore be unusable.

I think most people don't need that much power or torque. Brands have entered an arms' race and reviewers are happy because then you can offer something "new and improved" to potential customers and viewers. But for real usage in actual trails (and fire-roads), most current motors are already overkill.

So we agree that 1500w is way too much power for most eMTBers. I just purchased the Aventon Current that is 750w, but will boost to 850w (Gobao P120 motor), which is plenty of power to get up any single-track or fire-road. The power race is on and as long as customers by the Avniox motors they will push the power and that will force other manufactures to follow, which in the end won't be a good thing.

 

[ZR1]

It's a bit of a tricky one, avinox have developed software to detect location and comply with local rules. Which in some ways is preferrable to region locking motors by serial number etc, it's just the way to circumvent is well known, they could still go down the bosch route and require dealer software to change region.

PersonallyI think specialized opening the door to changing the speed limit on the bike screen is a worse precedent than bigger power or using IP's to decide regions.

 

[TQFreak]

It might be too much power for some scenarios and so on, but the manufacturers and the market prefer not to design and produce multiple different motors for different electrical bicycles with different purposes. It is more effective to have one motor and use it everywhere, eMTB, cargo bikes, commuter bikes, offroad race bikes, etc. If you are not happy your motor has 1500W instead of 500W then just toggle the assist level down, you have a such option, or flash the firmware with limited power. Just don't tell me how much power I need.

 

[Fangs2k]

PersonallyI think specialized opening the door to changing the speed limit on the bike screen is a worse precedent than bigger power or using IP's to decide regions.

I think this is only in the US though isn’t it, the Class 1/Class 3 thing?

Certainly UK Specialized bikes don’t have that option.

Let’s face it, putting aside legalities, 1500w is wasted on a 25kph assist limit bike, it’s unbalanced. In places like say, NZ, where 45kph is the assist limit, it feels almost sensible.

 

[ZR1]

I think this is only in the US though isn’t it, the Class 1/Class 3 thing?

Certainly UK Specialized bikes don’t have that option.

Let’s face it, putting aside legalities, 1500w is wasted on a 25kph assist limit bike, it’s unbalanced. In places like say, NZ, where 45kph is the assist limit, it feels almost sensible.

Yes US only for now but the notion of letting you just change the category of bike on the screen is opening a can of worms.

What if someone did the same in the EU and let you choose between EPAC and speed pedelec mode on the bike.

Having a 300bhp car in a 30mph limit is wasted, but nice to have on a dual carriageway, for me its the same for an emtb, don't really need that much but on some steep climbs it's nice to have.

 

[Fangs2k]

Yes but

Yes US only for now but the notion of letting you just change the category of bike on the screen is opening a can of worms.

What if someone did the same in the EU and let you choose between EPAC and speed pedelec mode on the bike

Yes, that would be interesting, speed pedelecs are of course allowed in the EU/UK, they’re just classed as mopeds and require a licence, insurance and a helmet to be worn as well as being restricted to where you can ride it.

On the Avinox system you can do that via the VPN hack already, I don’t think Specialized or any other manufacturer would offer a user selectable option like that though, the import authorities wouldn’t class such a bike as an EAPC either.

 

[Astro66]

My statement is rubbish?

Did you define that only in the US the responsibility is borne by the rider ? Because EU, Asia and Australia. We are locked to one regulation. EN15194.

Regarding Derestricting. I have asked my Amflow distributor. If you hack your phone and deliberately set your phone's region to a region other than Australia when pairing with the bike, to set the bikes region to a region other than Australia. This will instantly void your warranty. It also incurs a nearly AUD$5000 fine if you are caught riding it.

They couldn't be any clearer that tampering with certification of the EMTB it is not allowed. So I think we can cut all the inuendo about hacking speed restrictions. All motors can be hacked. The degree of difficulty varies. But part of the EN15194 standard is the Anti-tampering component, which Avinox must comply with to pass NSW certification.

The ability to change the region on the Touchscreen was removed to exactly comply with EN15194.

 

[JP-NZ]

Did you define that only in the US the responsibility is borne by the rider ? Because EU, Asia and Australia. We are locked to one regulation. EN15194.

Regarding Derestricting. I have asked my Amflow distributor. If you hack your phone and deliberately set your phone's region to a region other than Australia when pairing with the bike, to set the bikes region to a region other than Australia. This will instantly void your warranty. It also incurs a nearly AUD$5000 fine if you are caught riding it.

They couldn't be any clearer that tampering with certification of the EMTB it is not allowed. So I think we can cut all the inuendo about hacking speed restrictions. All motors can be hacked. The degree of difficulty varies. But part of the EN15194 standard is the Anti-tampering component, which Avinox must comply with to pass NSW certification.

The ability to change the region on the Touchscreen was removed to exactly comply with EN15194.

Does this cover your Amflow because I thought you used a NZ VPN on that too?

 

[Astro66]

Does this cover your Amflow because I thought you used a NZ VPN on that too?

When I ride on the road. I set a higher limit on all my bikes. It is way too dangerous riding in traffic at 25kph. This is not very often with my EMTBs.

When I'm in the National Park I set my limit to 25kph. You don't need any more.

When I'm in the bike parks, I set it to 20mph. I need the extra speed for the jumps. I've cased too many jumps when hitting the limiter just as you get to the jump. It's just dangerous.

With my bikes. The Shimano EP801, Bafang and Avinox could be set to the US region. I understand the warranty implications of changing regions. As far a ease goes. The Bafang is easiest. Shimano next easiest. Avinox has been troublesome, with it not switching sometimes and switching back after updates. I won't discuss derestriction any further outside the derestriction Sub Forum.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

When I ride on the road. I set a higher limit on all my bikes. It is way too dangerous riding in traffic at 25kph. This is not very often with my EMTBs.

When I'm in the National Park I set my limit to 25kph. You don't need any more.

When I'm in the bike parks, I set it to 20mph. I need the extra speed for the jumps. I've cased too many jumps when hitting the limiter just as you get to the jump. It's just dangerous.

With my bikes. The Shimano EP801, Bafang and Avinox could be set to the US region. I understand the warranty implications of changing regions. As far an ease goes. The Bafang is easiest. Shimano next easiest. Avinox has been troublesome, with it not switching sometimes and switching back after updates. I won't discuss derestriction any further outside the derestriction Sub Forum.

Well, well, well… I see now Mr. full of . Rule for thee, but not for me.

Using a VPN to spoof your location isn’t exactly hacking your motor. It’s a loophole in the method Avinox employs to geo restrict their motors. Whereas Bosch locks it down at the firmware level before the bike/motor is delivered to the consumer. The Bosch and Shimano you would be “hacking” to derestrict.

 

[Weeksy]

When I ride on the road. I set a higher limit on all my bikes. It is way too dangerous riding in traffic at 25kph. This is not very often with my EMTBs.

It's not a 25kph limit, it's a 25kph cut off of power/assistance. They're very very different things.

A large percentage of people on the road on manual bikes very rarely exceed 25kph and they're not dying or being killed because of that reason. (mostly peoples stupidity takes care of that)

 

[Moderator]

Closing the thread.

If you want to discuss de-restricting, there are plenty of de-restricting discussion threads around which have already covered most things.

We have several hundred replies on power now and nothing new is being said.

Thanks all.