Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?
- Thread starter nickf
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Because EMTB riders are ofen old guy who lived the "green motorcycle life"
. From birth to death. And they now that the world it's an eternal restart. Only youngers can think it's totaly new world.Why single out DJI….. all the manufacturers are focused on market share and investor return….. if that’s an issue it’s a problem with all the manufacturers…
Paulquattro
Meet & Greet Elite
Complaining about tech NO , worrying about the blurred lines between legal and not, Yes
This will go too far Power wise and they will all get classed at motorbikes no exceptions and thats something non of us want is it .
I’m an ‘early e-biker’ as well, was knocking up my own TSDZ2 conversions about 10 years ago, and purchased a Focus Jam2 in 2019 with an E8000 motor that felt fabulous in comparison. Nobody ‘owns’ this hobby/sport of ours by virtue of how long they’ve owned an EMTB (or even if they own a forum and YT channel…) so all voices and opinions are valid.
Personally, I don’t want to rely on illegal access to enjoy riding my e-bike in the countryside, that is my concern, end of really.
People answer the easy questions of why Avinox motors are so great, but people don’t like trying to answer the other questions the power march raises.
I tried a Speedbox on my ‘old’ Specialized SL1.1, a bike with 250w max assistance and assist limited to 25kph. It worked great, raised the assist limit to 50kph but due to the low power motor it was still very difficult to get it past 30kph!
Last year I also tried my mates Amflow PL in NZ mode via the VPN hack, the extra 750w was like night and day, it was silly easy to hit the 45kph limit. Anybody who thinks the power is making no difference to e-bikes is dreaming.
You’re right, we can disagree whilst being respectful, and there needs to be recognition where people are in the world when reading what they’re saying and why they might be saying it.
EMTBs have been exciting to me for a decade, and MTBs before that. The problem is, the ‘tech’ is moving ahead of the legislation (here in the UK anyway) and whenever things get stretched like that it often leads to knee jerk legislation that hurts the rule abiders, whilst the rule breakers carry on as before.
Because EMTB riders are ofen old guy who lived the "green motorcycle life"
EMTB’ers come from all stages of life, a quick look at any UK trail centre, a visit to the Alps in the summer or even sitting outside a big bike shop with a coffee would show you.
Dismissing concerns based on age isn’t helpful.
The post was about the possible, indeed likely, ramifications of engaging in a 'motor power race'.
hth
ozzybmx
Active member
We can go any more
It is ! 9th of April was a smorgasbord of awesomeness for us ebikers.
So many nice bikes out there its actually crazy.
Though we are at the ceiling, battery tech is not there.
1500w on a 700wh battery is 28 minutes. What goes up, must come down so you could double that.
Saying the motor is 1500w is an injustice as it takes a fair human effort and a steep hill to hit those numbers and it will be for seconds rather than minutes also hampered hitting the speed limiter. There is no possible way to maintain 1500w on the flats with a speed limited pedelec.
It is ! 9th of April was a smorgasbord of awesomeness for us ebikers.
So many nice bikes out there its actually crazy.
Though we are at the ceiling, battery tech is not there.
1500w on a 700wh battery is 28 minutes. What goes up, must come down so you could double that.
Saying the motor is 1500w is an injustice as it takes a fair human effort and a steep hill to hit those numbers and it will be for seconds rather than minutes also hampered hitting the speed limiter. There is no possible way to maintain 1500w on the flats with a speed limited pedelec.
I feel like some of you complain about the new generations being soft, then run to your computer to go type up a complaint about a bicycle that maxes out at 28mph lol!
It’s not that fast guys, relax. It’s capped at a classed limit. Does it really matter how fast you get to that limit? All e-bikes can be derestricted very easily, so this isn’t an avinox only thing. Either way 28mph derestricted is still not that fast. You go faster downhill, and who’s complaining about that? We gonna do speed limits on the downhills? That’s way more dangerous than a controlled under power uphill climb.
ObiWanBenobi
New Member
- Mar 4, 2026
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And every time we drive. Especially in a 20 zone.
The laws in the UK don't work for anything related to e powered personal transport.
They are from a time past.
Paulquattro
Meet & Greet Elite
No
You try again
There is no legal power limit to class vehicles as legal or not so mentioning a 1000 hp as legal has no place on this discussion we also dont have speed limits with bicycles so another pointless comment ,
You and so many others bring things like this into these threads over and over again for years now ,
We are talking here about pedelecs nothing more nothing less and the power increases is going to get them banned eventually because there are legal limits for them unlike vehicles ,
if or not you agree with the law is up to you but its there to class a pedelec as a normal bicycle for which im personally grateful for .
On that, a major irritation for me was having my battery health tested. Spesh; look at the app. Bosch though, ring round LBS's until you find one with a battery tester, take the battery in & leave it with them whle they fully charge & discharge it after being warned it could brick the battery. Go back a day later & collect your battery & report & pay the bill.
As for the power question, the natural outcome in a competitive market is to create an arms race. Others have to try to compete, to ignore an innovator is existential. I am sure we will see a wave of higher power motors now as a result. The merits are debatable, my geriatric 85nm CX4 is great, I still love it, I've put a fair bit of effort into keeping it stood on its own two feet & shared that experience here but it would be denying human nature to suggest people wouldn't want something bigger, better, faster.
The Surron/Deliveroo/mad teenagers thing I think is a different debate. Us nerds who pore over axle specifications & head angles groan when we see a news report of yet another poor bastard's house going up in flames because we know they bought some shite Chinesium off Ali Express & yet it is inevitably just reported as an ebike, just as we know our bikes are a world away from Surrons but it doesn't matter, the press will never have the curiosity to explore the difference. For that, you need a vocal trade body or say a youtuber with a bit of reach & the foresight to see what's coming down the tracks.
- Thread starter
- #74
I agree with everything you said about the amazing innovation that Avinox is rolling out. And there probably wouldn't be any discussion here about Avinox motors if it wasn't for the huge power increase that came with those innovations.
Everyone here can have their own personal opinion on whether they want electronic derailleurs or 1500W of power. It's nobody's place to tell other riders what they should choose, but the introduction of the former does not risk the unregulated freedom of riding our bikes while the latter does. IMO that is the only issue to debate here.
If the regulatory authorities and trail landowners all publicly stated that they weren't going to impose restrictions on higher power eMTBs then the debate would stop there. But that's not going to happen, so the risk remains.
For those who currently feel the regulatory risks are low I can only hope they are right. But Avinox's choice to give a 50% increase in power to their 2nd generation motor will only be seen by the authorities as a provocative sign of things to come and might just be enough to stimulate their regulatory juices! That is the only issue here, and NOT whether Bob or Joe or Jill think that 50% more power is cool (or not).
Would we be just as keen to buy the new M2S motor if it hadn't had the power increase? I think we would, because all the other innovations are so worth it.
I think you’re coming at it from a US perspective, 28mph speed pedelecs exist here in the UK/EU too, it’s just that they’re classed as e-motorcycles, require a license, helmet and are restricted as to where they can be legally ridden.
EAPCs are allowed to be ridden anywhere a standard bicycle can be, by law, with no extra requirements but they should be assist limited to 15.6mph and comply with the 250w nominal motor power laws.
It’s not ‘us guys’ sitting here complaining about the speed, we don’t decide what the law is and don’t get me wrong I’d much rather it was upped.
For me, and hopefully this will help explain it, on a Sunday morning I roll out of my garden gate and within minutes I’m on endless miles of legally accessible trails that I can enjoy whenever I like with no insurance or licence hoops.
Sure, if e-bikes get thrown off such trails at some point, I could just continue to ride them, but it would rather take the shine off things if the police were waiting for me somewhere along the trail to impound my bike and throw me a fine for my trouble.
As they do now for illegal motorcycle use of the same trails as it happens.
Rockhopper70
Active member
Yes, Bosch’s latest innovation and update means I can now record the duration of jumps, wheelies and endos.
Useful that.
I am baffled how people who claim to be ebikers and understand them, can be so ignorant about how they work.
Who cares if the motor outs out a million watts of power or has infinite amount of torque, it can only go so fast, and is in fact slower on flat ground or downhill than what a good rider can obtain on an analog.
The higher power and torque will only be useful in steep technical climbs and Turbo on any Emtb is only used consistently by new Emtb riders. Once they get past the wow factor they return to using the motor to manage the fun factor and begin to use the bike for both training and having pure fun. This takes about a year but eventually they all come around, if they were true mtb riders to begin with.
Some someone please explain to me why more but limited speed is an issue, go ahead, I’ll wait.
in the UK pedelecs only count as EAPC if they have a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts
the M2S is rated at 1300 watts continuous
that figure may well focus the legislators even more than they are now
and that's before people start derestricting...
Sure! The primary issue as many on this thread have already made clear, is the risk of renewed regulation.
It does not really matter what you or any other user does or does not understand about motor power. What matters is the perception of the public and media which then influences politicians and subsequently the regulatory authorities.
What usually happens when a regulatory authority begins a review, is firstly a proposal followed by an invitation to manufacturer organisations, retailers and user groups for comment , on that proposal.
I would guess the majority of those bodies would support a limit on peak motor watts closer to 800w possibly making an exception for cargo bikes.
The problem has always been that "continuous rated power" is poorly defined and virtually impossible to regulate. It was also a regulation that preceeded brushless motors. The limitation of " continuous" is largely to do with the generation of heat.
So if you programme software to enable a peak output far greater than the nominal 250 but clip it to a lower level every 5 seconds, for 1 second, that peak level output could be sustained with the rider not noticing the short clips. Not saying anyone is doing that of course!! As if!!
Desert_Turtle
Active member
I think the new technology is great but we’re at a point where the bikes are making too much power. I live in California and e-bikes were gaining legitimacy and slowly started to be accepted by the forestry service. I fear we’re reaching power levels that will turn the tide in the opposite direction and e-bikes will start being regulated off the trails. It’s awesome that e-bikes have made mountain biking accessible to people that aren’t fit enough to ride without a motor. Ebikes have also created a totally different experience for fit MTB riders but again I fear the power levels are getting ridiculous. I have a Gen4 Levo and recently bought an Amflow PL on super sale because I was curious. Wow, the Amflow has power! I could not imagine 500w more. That’s redonculous! Bike power is starting to reach the power of a mini bike. Too much IMHO. I ride about 5000 miles a year, 85% of which are w/o e-power. I’m by no means a purist and understand why e-bikes are so rad.
Completely agree with Rob's statement, e-mtb is an equilibrium between power - battery size(consumption) - weight. That equation will be different for each users, most likely generating some standard configurations for the majority.
JayGoodrich
Member
I'll start with a quote from the Oracle in the Matrix - "What do all men with power want? More power."
I say that without any context of riding an Avinox bike yet, but I have been part of the mountain bike industry for over 40 years now. There is always going to be the next "great" thing. Today it's Avinox, yesterday it was 27.5" wheels, then 29" wheels, now 32" wheels are starting to surface. Hell we even had plus sized tires for a lightening bolt of a moment. Does that mean Avinox will come and go? Probably not and if the system is worth the paper it's printed on, maybe it will become the holy grail of motor systems.
I adopted the Fazua system almost instantly because Santa Cruz produced their first SL bike using that system, and while I don't really have regrets with that purchase and bike, I have dealt with 3 motor replacements and now what looks to be a standstill in development of that system. We will probably never see a range extender and I am willing to place money on the Heckler SL 2 moving away from Fazua altogether.
So.... Is Avinox a good thing? Yes, it probably is. Do we need all that power? I am pretty skeptical that we do. Will I hate it when I get the chance to ride it? Probably not. Do we need to ride it at full power all the time? Nope. Will we though? Yep. So what's the down side? I guess the way I look at it is this...
A mountain bike has allowed me to travel the world. To get into places of stunning, natural beauty at a fraction of the time, that walking does. An e-bike has allowed me to do that even faster, but has also opened up trails that were previously unridable. Will more power allow me to do more? That's where I say, no-ish. Maybe it will allow me to ride a steeper section that I have never been able to clean before, but all that power will steal life from the battery and thus shorten those distances. While it doesn't currently appear to add significantly to the weight, will the next battery iteration that allows you to go further add to the weight? Full power bikes are hovering around 50 pounds. Is that still a bike?
Last year my wife and I decided to move back to analog bikes for at least a couple rides a week. We throw down 20 mile rides on 22 pound bikes powered only by the human component. We started doing this for 2 specific reasons. One, we felt like we needed to go back to the beginning of where we started - pedaling for fitness. And then 2 because we have had so many issues with e-bikes from service standpoint, that we wanted to remember what it was like to just ride a fucking bicycle. And that has been an amazing and enlightening experience.
I'll leave you with this...
Don't get me wrong, the e-bike is one of the greatest inventions in the bike industry since Joe Breeze, Gary Fisher, Chris King, et.al. started descending their Schwinns down Mt. Tam during the days of RePack. It allows people of all fitness levels and ages to get into mountain biking and to ride together. It allows those with years of experience to ride trails never before considered ridable. While we are all power hungry and driven for more speed and more this, are we forgetting our roots? Are we all going to become the milkshake drinking, seat lounging humans from the movie Wall-E? Regardless, I will say hi to you when you pass me on your Avinox or when I pass you on mine.
I say that without any context of riding an Avinox bike yet, but I have been part of the mountain bike industry for over 40 years now. There is always going to be the next "great" thing. Today it's Avinox, yesterday it was 27.5" wheels, then 29" wheels, now 32" wheels are starting to surface. Hell we even had plus sized tires for a lightening bolt of a moment. Does that mean Avinox will come and go? Probably not and if the system is worth the paper it's printed on, maybe it will become the holy grail of motor systems.
I adopted the Fazua system almost instantly because Santa Cruz produced their first SL bike using that system, and while I don't really have regrets with that purchase and bike, I have dealt with 3 motor replacements and now what looks to be a standstill in development of that system. We will probably never see a range extender and I am willing to place money on the Heckler SL 2 moving away from Fazua altogether.
So.... Is Avinox a good thing? Yes, it probably is. Do we need all that power? I am pretty skeptical that we do. Will I hate it when I get the chance to ride it? Probably not. Do we need to ride it at full power all the time? Nope. Will we though? Yep. So what's the down side? I guess the way I look at it is this...
A mountain bike has allowed me to travel the world. To get into places of stunning, natural beauty at a fraction of the time, that walking does. An e-bike has allowed me to do that even faster, but has also opened up trails that were previously unridable. Will more power allow me to do more? That's where I say, no-ish. Maybe it will allow me to ride a steeper section that I have never been able to clean before, but all that power will steal life from the battery and thus shorten those distances. While it doesn't currently appear to add significantly to the weight, will the next battery iteration that allows you to go further add to the weight? Full power bikes are hovering around 50 pounds. Is that still a bike?
Last year my wife and I decided to move back to analog bikes for at least a couple rides a week. We throw down 20 mile rides on 22 pound bikes powered only by the human component. We started doing this for 2 specific reasons. One, we felt like we needed to go back to the beginning of where we started - pedaling for fitness. And then 2 because we have had so many issues with e-bikes from service standpoint, that we wanted to remember what it was like to just ride a fucking bicycle. And that has been an amazing and enlightening experience.
I'll leave you with this...
Don't get me wrong, the e-bike is one of the greatest inventions in the bike industry since Joe Breeze, Gary Fisher, Chris King, et.al. started descending their Schwinns down Mt. Tam during the days of RePack. It allows people of all fitness levels and ages to get into mountain biking and to ride together. It allows those with years of experience to ride trails never before considered ridable. While we are all power hungry and driven for more speed and more this, are we forgetting our roots? Are we all going to become the milkshake drinking, seat lounging humans from the movie Wall-E? Regardless, I will say hi to you when you pass me on your Avinox or when I pass you on mine.
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Not all.
Yeah, I don't need that much power. I want a stiff frame, good handling, good range, and a comfortable stack height and a not-too-low BB height. If I just rode my eMTB, I would never be able to ride with my friends on regular MTBs, which we often do. The one year I rode my eMTB a ton, I lost so much leg strength and peak power on my regular MTB...was embarrassing when I rode with my riding buddies. I keep it it mixed up and ride with reduced power on the eMTB since I find it too easy on the default settings.
Regional issues are a very poor reason to handicap the entire industry. Especially when the bike industry has been struggling the last few years. They finally get a hot product category (full-power eMTB) and they're going to choke the goose laying the golden egg? Seems like very foolish thinking to me.
Create two classes, and you can now put the Avinox motor eMTBs into the Class-3 realm.
Class-1 (eBike): No throttle, Pedal Assist to Move, Top Speed of 24mph, max 750w (maybe up to 1000w), max 100nm.
Class-3 (eMoto): Everything else two-wheeled with an electric motor (Throttle, Top Speed, Power, torque unlimited).
Class-1 (eBike): No throttle, Pedal Assist to Move, Top Speed of 24mph, max 750w (maybe up to 1000w), max 100nm.
Class-3 (eMoto): Everything else two-wheeled with an electric motor (Throttle, Top Speed, Power, torque unlimited).
slickrock
Well-known member
If the OP is worried about the impact Avinox on the EMTB industry, just wait till they get to market first with a capable motor-transmission unit. As you say, Bosch has been glacial in advancements, which has been good for producing refined systems so far, but literally crickets when it comes any semblance of making a motor-transmission unit. It baffles me because they have no transmission legacy to protect, unlike SRAM and Shimano. Yet even those latter companies at least have patents on file for MGUs, but this could just be industry hedging. What Avinox did to successfully to invade to EMTB motor space locked up by Bosch is a much more ambitious and arduous feat than the ease it could jump into a motor-transmission space absent of any massive competitors (sorry, but Pinion ain't it so far).
Nobody (in the US at least) should feel that they have no control over legislation. Citizens get laws and regulations changed all the time. No reason the change can only go negatively. If anything the trend is that access is expanding. So weird that all some see is doom and gloom when the facts indicate otherwise.
ObiWanBenobi
New Member
- Mar 4, 2026
- 20
- 10
I think some of the 'it's too powerful crew' are secretly worried that their favourite manufacturer that they have a parasocial relationship with, is being completely trounced by a new entry to the market and likely won't be around soon.
From the reviews the new Amflow and DJI combo is looking incredible.
Good riddance Bosch.
Sorry it ended like this Specialized.
Shut the door on the way out.
From the reviews the new Amflow and DJI combo is looking incredible.
Good riddance Bosch.
Sorry it ended like this Specialized.
Shut the door on the way out.
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