Yes, we have fitted a Yamaha motor into a Giant, using a Yamaha controller and it would not talk to the battery.
GIANT Trance "Bench Test" Rig
- Thread starter Evolution Stu
- Start date
If you swapped the PCB it would do 20mph otherwise 15mph.
Do you think we could setup a "Swap Shop" .. people in Europe who want to go 20mph can take the boards from USA members and USA members who find 20mph is just too fast or want to enjoy that nice slow Euro speed, where it's safe to eat cheese and ride at the same time, can take the Euro boards 
However, I don't think I've ever seen either of these two threads :
"Shall I restrict my bike"
"Does anyone know how to limit my bike to 25kph/15mph"
However, I don't think I've ever seen either of these two threads :
"Shall I restrict my bike"
"Does anyone know how to limit my bike to 25kph/15mph"
malc101
Active member
Thanks BearingMan! I figured you'd be the one who would be closest to knowing.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #35
Sorry mate, i saw your comment but didn't think they were internally that different you would go from predicting a 60’000 mile life span with rider weight and use age having zero effect on them, to just “The pro lasts just 5 mins“, so i qualified my thoughts on the only one i have experience of. The pro.
I’m intrigued to know the actual mechanical differences and if there is anything you think we can do as owners to improve the potential lifespan? Mines out of warranty soon and this becomes a financial headache every 6 months.
I did suspect the noise couldn’t be anything other than poor meshing. Interesting that this new motor is both quieter and has less play than previous warranty units. It did make me wonder if they have known good and bad batches as i kicked up a right stink with Giant UK this time as I had to wait months for this one.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #36
Damn.
Makes sense too, i bet Giant changed the Canbus ID for their proprietary “Syncdrive“stuff so it was no longer on the Yamaha DBC.
For those who dont understand what that means, the CANbus is simply a very robust communication system that allows a single pair of cables (A bus) to send thousands of messages (I call them passengers) at the same time and have all the hardware items on that bus route receive the same data (Motor, battery and RCone in our cases)
The system allows units on that bus route to talk to whatever passenger it is interested in and ignore the rest. This means we just fire all the data onto the same line with a unique identifier and tell the interested units what identifier to listen to.
This has completely replaced running separate wires for every signal which used to need miles of heavy wire and hundreds of connections. Now the same pair of wire carry the lot. Its hugely cheaper and very robust, plus its reasonably impervious to electrical interference due to the CRC system in place.
I expect the host controller in our case is RCOne and in later bikes it will be the unit down by the motor.
The RCOne will power the CAN wake up line (Pink i recall), and then issue a canbus power up command to the BMU.
The BMU (Battery management unit) will then check cell status and wiring integrity and issue an ok signal back to RCOne. This will send back the OK to enable the main battery power output connector (The big + one) which will power the motor up. Any issues at that stage and the BMU will issue an immediate shutdown command because lets face it, these batteries are literally bombs. I think its here that our bikes fail with the common “Wont stay on” issue due to damp. The wiring resistance check fails or we short out the message bus lines.
If all is well, the motors controller firmware will power up and do similar checks on wiring integrity and to its own sensors and sends all this data back down the canbus to RCOne and the battery as CANbus messages for applied torque, cadence, bike inclination and wheel speed as well as motor temperature and current usage I expect.
Getting to the problem….
All these CANbus messages are encoded and the decoding file is called a DBC file.
Cars typically have an OBD2 encoding format. Trucks a J1939 format and there are others for marine and military etc.
Every manufacturer can have his own, unique identifiers and DBC file which keeps them at the top of the tree when it comes to data processing. Trade secrets if you like. And quite rightly too.
Petrol heads can liken this to the difference between a genuine BMW or Ford diagnostic tool and a normal OBD diagnostic tool.
One decodes far more data as it has the manufactuers proprietary DBC file in it which will allow it to decode thousands more messages on the same CANBus connector (OBD Port) than the freely available OBD2 DBC file which can only decode the OBD2 DBC stream that was made law for all vehicles to have freely available on the bus.
Bottom line here is Bearing Man is no doubt correct that you would have to change every message receiver and transmitter to one that talks the same language in order for them to work in harmony.
I wonder if HAIBike have done the same? Any ideas?
Again, I think a pro motor fitted to a road bike in Spain would last years, but not off road!Sorry mate, i saw your comment but didn't think they were internally that different you would go from predicting a 60’000 mile life span with rider weight and use age having zero effect on them, to just “The pro lasts just 5 mins“, so i qualified my thoughts on the only one i have experience of. The pro. ☺
I’m intrigued to know the actual mechanical differences and if there is anything you think we can do as owners to improve the potential lifespan? Mines out of warranty soon and this becomes a financial headache every 6 months.
I did suspect the noise couldn’t be anything other than poor meshing. Interesting that this new motor is both quieter and has less play than previous warranty units. It did make me wonder if they have known good and bad batches as i kicked up a right stink with Giant UK this time as I had to wait months for this one.
So, here is the scenario: With the PW and PW-SE motors the bearing ball size was relatively large, so the bearing would get water or dirt in it and start to fail. Because the bearing was so large it takes a lot longer to wear the balls down to a point where the seals lift of their seats and let everything flood into the motor and kill it!
With the PW-X (Giant Pro) the ball size of the bearing is tiny, so when this bearing starts to fail from water or dirt ingress, the failure is rapid.
We do have a solution for this issue, we have two seals in test. If we can prove they don't cause extra wear or battery drain, we will be manufacturing them for early next year
No other bike manufacturer that we currently know of use their own proprietary software, apart from Giant! With Haibike for example, you can use any battery with any motor or controller and it all works as long as they are year compatible. We can change circuit boards when they fail or get wet, we can fit aftermarket batteries etc. These bikes will be going long after any Giant bike that's for sure. I have not met many people who want to buy a £700 battery and a £1200 motor for a 5 or 6 year old bike!
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
- Thread starter
- #39
If we can prove they don't cause extra wear or battery drain, we will be manufacturing them for early next year
Best EMTB news of the year for me!!
Thanks.
This has me concerned!
I've had my 2020 Trance E+3 for 2 years and 1700 miles. Zero issues except that after around 600 miles the motor became quite noisy. Despite this it continues to work well with total reliability. Other than the specified tolerance, there is no play or apparent wear in the crank bearings. The only complaint I have with the Giant system is the pathetic app but that is easily ignored. My riding mates have had no end of issues with both manual and ebikes from Specialized and Trek.
Because of my positive experience with Giant I was seriously considering buying a 2022 Trance ebike.
Now I'm not so sure! ;-(
I've had my 2020 Trance E+3 for 2 years and 1700 miles. Zero issues except that after around 600 miles the motor became quite noisy. Despite this it continues to work well with total reliability. Other than the specified tolerance, there is no play or apparent wear in the crank bearings. The only complaint I have with the Giant system is the pathetic app but that is easily ignored. My riding mates have had no end of issues with both manual and ebikes from Specialized and Trek.
Because of my positive experience with Giant I was seriously considering buying a 2022 Trance ebike.
Now I'm not so sure! ;-(
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
- Thread starter
- #41
So they have likely stuck with the manufacturers released DBC then. Probably driven by Yamaha since they are the high current consumer.
I wonder which bit fails? I would hedge a bet that its a motor ID signal to say “I am Syncdrive, not Yamaha” which unlocks the extra 20% power mode and determines which firmware to boot into at power up. (Not all bikes have auto etc so RC1 likely contains a few run firmwares)
So the biggest issue to get round would probably be the battery. Loom and controller would be simple.
Hmm… Had to be the only part that DOESNT easily fit the bike didnt it?
I wonder if a Panasonic / Giant BMU would communicate with a HAIBike sourced controller and motor
I need to find a new friend with a HAIBike.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
- Thread starter
- #42
One of my pals has a similar age and mileage bike with no dramas too.
seems you can get lucky. Interestingly, his motor started out quiet too, as has my new one that seems ok.
I'm in a similar situation. My Giants have all been excellent and my dealer has been excellent. Despite these facts, I'm always regretful after coming here and reading how bad they are. Lol.
malc101
Active member
I have a Haibike Full Seven with 500wh battery, and a Trance '21 with the 625 battery. I am about to dig into the tech stuff here during the winter, but the conventional Yamaha communicates with old fashioned serial communications, similar to old dial-up modems, and the Giant bikes use the automotive CAN bus. There is nothing in common between the two communication hardware types. Feeding a Yamaha engine with another battery was figured out by this guy: Battery hack . Serial communication is pretty easy to copy, so you can stick an anything battery on a Yamaha if you stuff the battery health status to the motor/controller via a serial stream. Doing the same on the automotive CAN bus would require a whole other investigation.So they have likely stuck with the manufacturers released DBC then. Probably driven by Yamaha since they are the high current consumer.
I wonder which bit fails? I would hedge a bet that its a motor ID signal to say “I am Syncdrive, not Yamaha” which unlocks the extra 20% power mode and determines which firmware to boot into at power up. (Not all bikes have auto etc so RC1 likely contains a few run firmwares)
So the biggest issue to get round would probably be the battery. Loom and controller would be simple.
Hmm… Had to be the only part that DOESNT easily fit the bike didnt it?
I wonder if a Panasonic / Giant BMU would communicate with a HAIBike sourced controller and motor
I need to find a new friend with a HAIBike.
Secondly, on the battery side, one has to figure out if the batteries will happily discharge while there is no communications working. So, if the battery is really a smart one, it might require it's own communication stream that tells it that the motor is drawing the current rather than a short circuit somewhere.
The best solution would probably be to swap out all of the Giant stuff with pure Yamaha, assuming that you have an external mount battery and can do that. BearingMan also mentioned that you might be able to swap the controller boards inside the motors between Yamaha and Giant, but he has never tried it.
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malc101
Active member
Thanks for this info. So, all of the Giant and Yamaha marketing material led us to believe that the PW-X and SyncPro motors were a big improvement over the PW-S/Sport versions. Kind of a bummer hearing that one of the main reasons to buy Yamaha (reliability) was left behind.Again, I think a pro motor fitted to a road bike in Spain would last years, but not off road!
So, here is the scenario: With the PW and PW-SE motors the bearing ball size was relatively large, so the bearing would get water or dirt in it and start to fail. Because the bearing was so large it takes a lot longer to wear the balls down to a point where the seals lift of their seats and let everything flood into the motor and kill it!
With the PW-X (Giant Pro) the ball size of the bearing is tiny, so when this bearing starts to fail from water or dirt ingress, the failure is rapid.
We do have a solution for this issue, we have two seals in test. If we can prove they don't cause extra wear or battery drain, we will be manufacturing them for early next year
malc101
Active member
I am guessing that the connectors here are not the problem. Automotive CAN bust that carries the signals is pretty robust, and if the power connectors were breaking contact there would be serious overheating problems at the connector, with melted plastic, pitting of contacts, etc. My guess is that you do have moisture infiltration, but it is happening to one of the circuit boards (motor, battery internals, control head). Those boards are susceptible to small changes in signals due to a bit of impure water being across some circuitry. When the water evaporates or shakes off, it probably all will be fine, except in the case of eventual residue creating permanent conduction. Two things that might work: Cover the bottom of the frame tube with Tyvek or something to keep water out of the battery area, open up the motor, and coat the circuit board with conformal coating, which is an epoxy that is used on marine and military equipment. If you coat the board make sure you mask the connectors before doing so. Companies don't like to conformal coat things since it makes rework/repair impossible. However, nobody fixes stuff once it is out in the field, they just replace it. Here is the stuff:
MG Chemicals - 419D-55ML 419D Premium Acrylic Conformal Coating
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Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #47
I can’t disagree with you at all.
I wonder if the bearing man could give us a clue as to what kind of moisture ingress he sees, and maybe give us some images of water damage he has seen?
I wonder if the bearing man could give us a clue as to what kind of moisture ingress he sees, and maybe give us some images of water damage he has seen?
Yes, the battery is what makes it uneconomically viable and no, Haibike are just standard Yamaha and won't speak to Giant.So they have likely stuck with the manufacturers released DBC then. Probably driven by Yamaha since they are the high current consumer.
I wonder which bit fails? I would hedge a bet that its a motor ID signal to say “I am Syncdrive, not Yamaha” which unlocks the extra 20% power mode and determines which firmware to boot into at power up. (Not all bikes have auto etc so RC1 likely contains a few run firmwares)
So the biggest issue to get round would probably be the battery. Loom and controller would be simple.
Hmm… Had to be the only part that DOESNT easily fit the bike didnt it?
I wonder if a Panasonic / Giant BMU would communicate with a HAIBike sourced controller and motor
I need to find a new friend with a HAIBike.
On average, we do 100 motors a month and photograph every one, so I could post pictures like this all day if you want
eBike Motor Centre
There's nothing wrong with that ! Fake news !! The obsessed Yamaha owners continually tell us how none of them ever fail, they are the ultimate perfect design with Zero faults, are indestructible in any hands and do not suffer from failures and you should only buy a Yamaha motor - so this just can't be real, simple as that .. Now where's my bucket of sand to put my head in.On average, we do 100 motors a month and photograph every one, so I could post pictures like this all day if you want
View attachment 77704
View attachment 77705
View attachment 77706
View attachment 77707
View attachment 77708
View attachment 77709
View attachment 77710
Shhhhh! They only wanted to see the water, I didn't want to upset them with the actual failures
Why did you wash it anyway ??Shhhhh! They only wanted to see the water, I didn't want to upset them with the actual failures
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
- Thread starter
- #53
Excellent, now we are talking.
Cant beat having professional input at times like this.
Personally, if possible, I would be more interested to see PCB images of a motor you stripped that didnt have such excess bearing failure. If indeed you are ever asked to work on one with no massive bearing clearances?
Im trying to ascertian how much moisture ingress happens before the motor bearings themselves allow a direct water entry point.
Cant beat having professional input at times like this.
Personally, if possible, I would be more interested to see PCB images of a motor you stripped that didnt have such excess bearing failure. If indeed you are ever asked to work on one with no massive bearing clearances?
Im trying to ascertian how much moisture ingress happens before the motor bearings themselves allow a direct water entry point.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
- Thread starter
- #54
Maybe you could offer a conformal coating service alongside your uprated bearings / seals should the project come to fruition.
And yes, you could start with mine as the test mule I guess.
And yes, you could start with mine as the test mule I guess.
Unless a pressure washer is used, or a motor has been submerged, there is no visible water moisture on the board or in the motor. The boards are already very heavily coated. The coating is also very delicate and reacts to most solvents. You absolutely nailed it with your video StuExcellent, now we are talking.
Cant beat having professional input at times like this.
Personally, if possible, I would be more interested to see PCB images of a motor you stripped that didnt have such excess bearing failure. If indeed you are ever asked to work on one with no massive bearing clearances?
Im trying to ascertian how much moisture ingress happens before the motor bearings themselves allow a direct water entry point.
this is exactly what kills almost every motor we look at.
A tiny bit of water or dirt gets into the bearing, this damages the race, that then wears the balls, that lifts the seals off their seats, that lets more water and dirt through the bearing, that then enters the motor, that gets onto the PCB = Game over!!
As you could see from some of my pictures, some people are oblivious to the grinding crunching noises and will happily keep pedaling way after the ball bearing has gone. At this point there is just a big hole in the side of the motor!... These are some of our favourite customers
As I always say: If you can hear the motor grumbling while you are riding it, it's already too late!
malc101
Active member
Stu, any idea if the batteries on Yamaha and Giant can sink a load if they are not connected to a communicating motor. My idea is to create a load test bench and see how many watt hours really come out of the battery. Of course, to make this a accurate I will have to record a ride session with and replay the varied amperage loading over a few hour period. I already have some code/boards to do that with a little bit of adapting from my solar systems. I might as well record GPS too so I can lookup the grade of the various climbs. I strongly suspect that the 625wh, 500wh, etc., ratings are like Craftsman Peak horsepower on their lawnmowers. What we want to know is the available watt hours to the rider and not aggregate battery WH, since the battery management circuit likely leans towards not stressing the cells too hard.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #57
Damn.
So what the hell is killing my bike randomly as im almost certain that all we had left was moisture in the motor, perhaps entering via the vent disc. Mind you, that was until the latest train of though pushing me towards battery firmware. (See here)
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #58
I have absolutely no idea to be honest.
In theory, if they are regulated like a cars electric motor then it requires a canbus torque request which will be calculated back as a currrent requirement for the motor which is likely where the ceiling sits in the software as we have regulated assistance levels so I suspect it regulates current allowance to the motor. (80NM @ 70rpm requires an allowance of 2A for example)
Another fella on here kindly worked out the wiring for the bikes which I have since confirmed as follows:
- Red = Battery + For motor supply
- Yellow = Charger Input + Supply
- Brown = CAN-H
- Green = CAN-L
- Pink = 1.5 Volts wake up signal
- Black = Negative (-) for everything
malc101
Active member
Only 2A for full torque, that is way less than I thought. That will make my life with 1 milliohm shunts difficult to measure with less than 1-2 millivolts of signal. May need higher resistance shunts.
Will keep you posted, and let's see how adding 20 (10s2p) more cells in parallel works on the Haibike/Yamaha, as per this guy: Battery hack I am strongly betting that this give more range than the, "reserve tank", thing on the Plus battery pack does.
Evolution Stu
E*POWAH Master
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- #60
That was an “example” of how I suspect the control process works. I’ve no idea how many amps it might be mate.
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