Levo Gen 4 Gen 4 Sworks and Non-Sworks New Firmware Coming Soon (Yes, Really !)

[Chris_R]

I doubt they bring more power - why would they? So far at least here in Europe availability of the bikes is dodgy. Doesn't seem to me that there are loads of L4s sitting in the shops. So either they get bought or not many shipped..

 

[Ndanger]

como disse, a pior densidade energética entre elas é a da bateria da specialized...

Oi Tavares, traduzi o português para o inglês da seguinte forma: ps. Adoro a forma como é falado no Rio de Janeiro...

Hi Tavares, I translated the Portuguese to English as follows: ps I love the way it is spoken in Rio De Janeiro...

As I said, the worst energy density between them is that of the battery of the specialized...

 

[DylanJM]

I doubt they bring more power - why would they? So far at least here in Europe availability of the bikes is dodgy. Doesn't seem to me that there are loads of L4s sitting in the shops. So either they get bought or not many shipped..

Because on paper they are now behind Bosch and Avinox. Specialized see themselves as market leader so they can’t have themselves being seen as behind.

I see Levos out there with discounts so I’m not sure there’s a shortage. If anything it looks like they are having trouble shifting g some models.

 

[Tavares]

I didn’t think they did. The poster I was quoting was trying to say that the Specialized was somehow behind with their battery so I was pushing back.

In practice, with 666W and 101Nm in the Levo G4's 3.1 motor, the power consumption is extremely high, even with these figures. I say this because I've had one for 3 months and its range is less than that of the Amflow (Avinox). Both were tested on the same route, and the Amflow was much faster and still had 15% more battery life left...

Could an update change the situation? Yes, but it needs to be quick, because on top of everything else, the G4 is 4.8kg heavier than the basic Amflow...

 

[Ou812]

I doubt they bring more power - why would they? So far at least here in Europe availability of the bikes is dodgy. Doesn't seem to me that there are loads of L4s sitting in the shops. So either they get bought or not many shipped..

There’s a few shops here in the UK that are already discounting them as they don’t seem to be selling. One is discounting them and offering a free range extender. I was down in Edinburgh a few weeks ago and one of the shops there was offering 30% off on the S-Works and 20% off on the other models as an in-store offer only.

I know some places can’t keep them in stock but other places can’t seem to sell them.

 

[DuncanDoughnuts]

There’s a few shops here in the UK that are already discounting them as they don’t seem to be selling. One is discounting them and offering a free range extender. I was down in Edinburgh a few weeks ago and one of the shops there was offering 30% off on the S-Works and 20% off on the other models as an in-store offer only.

I know some places can’t keep them in stock but other places can’t seem to sell them.

I think in countries where you cannot get a DJi bike, the specialized are still selling well..... in countries where there or a few DJI options to choose from specialised is struggling.

 

[emtbeast]

In practice, with 666W and 101Nm in the Levo G4's 3.1 motor, the power consumption is extremely high, even with these figures. I say this because I've had one for 3 months and its range is less than that of the Amflow (Avinox). Both were tested on the same route, and the Amflow was much faster and still had 15% more battery life left...

Could an update change the situation? Yes, but it needs to be quick, because on top of everything else, the G4 is 4.8kg heavier than the basic Amflow...

The article you posted on my profile is a legit one but also a bit misleading in certain ways, if we look at the difference between the nominal and real capacity numbers it is cca 20Wh on average, that's 2,5% of an 800Wh pack.
From my personal experience with a lot of testing and data logging I can for sure say that 20Wh is only enough for cca 50m of altitude gain on a 7% incline or 3km of riding on flat terrain. I would so conclude that is negligible for most of riders, so not really worth talking about.

I do agree that sometimes manufacturers stretch the real capacity numbers vs nominal a bit wich is not ok, but imagine the confusion if manufacturers would label their batteries with 769Wh, 613Wh, 801Wh...etc...

The new Levo 4 battery is 16Ah, labeled as a 840Wh, nominal capacity on the specs sheet is 16Ah at 51V, do the math and we get 816Wh.

Edited: The higher capacity number(840Wh) is most likely calculated from the pack cells combined capacity.
The lower capacity number(16Ah/816Wh) is measured with a discharge test, that is what it can deliver, the difference is about 3% electrical heat losses in the system(cells, wires, motor windings, electronics).

The difference you saw between the bikes was due to the way the systems are programed for power delivery based on the rider input, the assistance settings used, system(rider+bike) weight, incline and terrain type, tyres and pressure(can have a huge impact)and other environmental factors.

Fundamentaly energy consumption is universal(plain physics) and can't be changed. Example below:

Levo
16Ah(real 816Wh) at 51V
If you bike uses for example on average 400W when riding:
400W/51V = 7,84A
16Ah/7,84A ≈ 2h of riding time

Avinox
22,3Ah(real 800Wh) at 36V
The same as before bike uses 400W on average when riding:
400W/36V = 11,11A
22,3Ah/11,11A ≈ 2h of riding time

 

[Ndanger]

Fundamentaly energy consumption is universal(plain physics) and can't be changed. Example below:

Levo
16Ah(real 816Wh) at 51V
If you bike uses for example on average 400W when riding:
400W/51V = 7,84A
16Ah/7,84A ≈ 2h of riding time

Avinox
22,3Ah(real 800Wh) at 36V
The same as before bike uses 400W on average when riding:
400W/36V = 11,11A
22,3Ah/11,11A ≈ 2h of riding time

I like the riding qualities of the Levo 4 and the way it handles steep rugged terrain and part of that may be the stability that the weight offers, I am also impressed that it has a more efficient / higher voltage that is utilizes which I am surprised that other brands have not adopted. As far as "energy consumption" in regards to range, I understand that weigh of the battery and overall bike would have an effect to the ultimate distance and elevation. In the discussion of battery energy density, I was inclined to be thinking in terms of weight to energy, in regards to the battery / bike energy density.

For the Levo 4, assuming the optimistic 840 Wh battery rating and not the 816 effective capacity as mentioned and a weight of 4.4 kg

Levo 4 - Energy density in Wh/kg is ~191 Wh/kg

Amflow PL Carbon - Weght-to-Energy Ratio Wh per kg is ~214 Wh/kg

Levo 4

~666 W motor

~26.08 kg bike weight

~25.5 W/kg power-to-weight (peak)



Amflow PL Carbon

Weight: ~21.2 kg

Avinox peak power up to 1,000 W (Boost mode up to 120 Nm)

~40–47 W/kg

I am not certain the numbers are correct but is it possible that the power to weight ratio is 25 compared to 40 with the two bikes compared could that have an effect on the "energy consumption" Next is a comparison of the torque as a reference:

Levo 4 - 3.88 Nm per kg

Torque: 101 Nm - Weight: 26.08 kg



Amflow - 4.95 Nm per kg

Continuous torque-to-weight = 105 / 21.2 4.95 Nm per kg

Peak torque-to-weight = 120 / 21.2 ≈ 5.66 Nm per kg

 

[Tavares]

Aqui no Reino Unido, algumas lojas já estão oferecendo descontos, pois os produtos não parecem estar vendendo bem. Uma delas está oferecendo desconto e um extensor de alcance grátis. Estive em Edimburgo há algumas semanas e uma loja estava oferecendo 30% de desconto no S-Works e 20% nos outros modelos, como oferta exclusiva para compras na loja física.

Sei que alguns lugares não conseguem manter o produto em estoque, mas outros parecem não conseguir vendê-lo.

Efeito Avinox

 

[Tavares]

I like the riding qualities of the Levo 4 and the way it handles steep rugged terrain and part of that may be the stability that the weight offers, I am also impressed that it has a more efficient / higher voltage that is utilizes which I am surprised that other brands have not adopted. As far as "energy consumption" in regards to range, I understand that weigh of the battery and overall bike would have an effect to the ultimate distance and elevation. In the discussion of battery energy density, I was inclined to be thinking in terms of weight to energy, in regards to the battery / bike energy density.

For the Levo 4, assuming the optimistic 840 Wh battery rating and not the 816 effective capacity as mentioned and a weight of 4.4 kg

Levo 4 - Energy density in Wh/kg is ~191 Wh/kg

Amflow PL Carbon - Weght-to-Energy Ratio Wh per kg is ~214 Wh/kg

Levo 4

~666 W motor

~26.08 kg bike weight

~25.5 W/kg power-to-weight (peak)



Amflow PL Carbon

Weight: ~21.2 kg

Avinox peak power up to 1,000 W (Boost mode up to 120 Nm)

~40–47 W/kg

I am not certain the numbers are correct but is it possible that the power to weight ratio is 25 compared to 40 with the two bikes compared could that have an effect on the "energy consumption" Next is a comparison of the torque as a reference:

Levo 4 - 3.88 Nm per kg

Torque: 101 Nm - Weight: 26.08 kg



Amflow - 4.95 Nm per kg

Continuous torque-to-weight = 105 / 21.2 4.95 Nm per kg

Peak torque-to-weight = 120 / 21.2 ≈ 5.66 Nm per kg

Thanks for the lesson, friend! It clarified the subject even more!

 

[emtbeast]

I like the riding qualities of the Levo 4 and the way it handles steep rugged terrain and part of that may be the stability that the weight offers, I am also impressed that it has a more efficient / higher voltage that is utilizes which I am surprised that other brands have not adopted. As far as "energy consumption" in regards to range, I understand that weigh of the battery and overall bike would have an effect to the ultimate distance and elevation. In the discussion of battery energy density, I was inclined to be thinking in terms of weight to energy, in regards to the battery / bike energy density.

For the Levo 4, assuming the optimistic 840 Wh battery rating and not the 816 effective capacity as mentioned and a weight of 4.4 kg

Levo 4 - Energy density in Wh/kg is ~191 Wh/kg

Amflow PL Carbon - Weght-to-Energy Ratio Wh per kg is ~214 Wh/kg

Levo 4

~666 W motor

~26.08 kg bike weight

~25.5 W/kg power-to-weight (peak)



Amflow PL Carbon

Weight: ~21.2 kg

Avinox peak power up to 1,000 W (Boost mode up to 120 Nm)

~40–47 W/kg

I am not certain the numbers are correct but is it possible that the power to weight ratio is 25 compared to 40 with the two bikes compared could that have an effect on the "energy consumption" Next is a comparison of the torque as a reference:

Levo 4 - 3.88 Nm per kg

Torque: 101 Nm - Weight: 26.08 kg



Amflow - 4.95 Nm per kg

Continuous torque-to-weight = 105 / 21.2 4.95 Nm per kg

Peak torque-to-weight = 120 / 21.2 ≈ 5.66 Nm per kg

Yes that's an interesting point of view, although only one part of the whole story. What does that mean irl.

If you move an object with a specific mass, let's say for example 1kg with 25W of power or the same object with 40W of power the difference will be how much faster you arrive to your top speed, if talking about torque numbers how much easier it feels getting to your top speed, that is in emtb world 25km/h or 32km/h.

The difference in mass of the bikes in your comparison is cca 4,9kg, from my experience that's only going to have a bigger impact on range once the rider weight gets in the range of 90+kg.

Maybe interesting for you or for someone...when I was bored I made chart based on various collected data that shows how much Driving Force(Nm) gets eaten from the getgo by combined mass(rider+bike) with increasing incline. Sorry about the bad quality...it's a screenshot unfortunately

 

[Power1tobe]

These are all great discussions, but the fact remains that whether its power to weight ratio / Driving force reduction they are 2 separate motors. So I submit that Specialized just raise their power to 750w and call it a day. This topic of more power + more range is crazy... when power is near = across motors then people will focus back on how the bike handles. I have ridden both the Gen4 and now the Amflow, they don't ride the same. Weight is irrelevant to me at 40-50lbs.... they are all pigs compared to my 25lb MTB. Or have ppl stopped riding their old bikes

 

[Pizzman]

It all goes to poo if you climb at the wrong cadence. I see it a TON.
My Levo likes 80-85.
My analog is 2014

 

[Power1tobe]

It all goes to poo if you climb at the wrong cadence. I see it a TON.
My Levo likes 80-85.
My analog is 2014

Yes I would say cadence as it relates to power output on these bikes plays a huge impact to energy savings, to the point that even though DJI is using more power the rate and cadence at which its climbing may gain efficiencies.... muddied by about 20 other factors. I want a bench test to see the 2 motors at max power and a high load (sim 15% grade). Both motors full battery proceed to max cadence for max output with identical gearing (or as close gearing), and record data till battery drops from max power or it hits thermal cut. Because the reality is no one is grinding at max power for 2 Hrs, difference between 720 and 850 watts is pretty enormous on a sustained climb. Hitting Class 3 max (28mph) on 5% with 720w is a ton of work, max 28mph at 15% is superhuman. At this point there is a ton of return on every addition watt you receive from your motor. Hence why the gaps on even short climbs between the two motors is so significant.

 

[Pizzman]

You can go far or you can go fast. But you can’t do both. Adjust your available settings to suit your riding needs. Plan your trips accordingly, there’s no need to worry.
All more power means to me, is bouncing off the motor shut off more.
Once gravity kicks in, all the motor is, is a nice comfy weight down low

I really enjoy my Levo. It puts a genuine smile on my face every time I ride it.

 

[Powerslider]

I truly find the scientific discussion interesting but the reality of the situation for me is my Levo 4 simply has more endurance than I do. So much extra range that I’m comfortable putting on dual Assegai MaxxGrip DH tires on it.

 

[DirkWisely]

I truly find the scientific discussion interesting but the reality of the situation for me is my Levo 4 simply has more endurance than I do. So much extra range that I’m comfortable putting on dual Assagai MaxxGrip DH tires on it.

Same. I got the ranged extender, but I've not needed it so far. I went on my longest ride ever with the RE on, and didn't actually end up needing it.

 

[robikinkela]

I only know that, in the real world, my Expert would perform better on technical climbs where, at times, the motor fails: 700 W of power instead of 666 W would come in handy in some (rare) cases.

 

[Powerslider]

I only know that, in the real world, my Expert would perform better on technical climbs where, at times, the motor fails: 700 W of power instead of 666 W would come in handy in some (rare) cases.

My view is the motor is only assisting, so unless it stops working, it’s never failing to get me up a climb. I’m failing to get me up the climb. It’s only worse for my ego that I’m failing with assistance!

 

[Tavares]

Yes I would say cadence as it relates to power output on these bikes plays a huge impact to energy savings, to the point that even though DJI is using more power the rate and cadence at which its climbing may gain efficiencies.... muddied by about 20 other factors. I want a bench test to see the 2 motors at max power and a high load (sim 15% grade). Both motors full battery proceed to max cadence for max output with identical gearing (or as close gearing), and record data till battery drops from max power or it hits thermal cut. Because the reality is no one is grinding at max power for 2 Hrs, difference between 720 and 850 watts is pretty enormous on a sustained climb. Hitting Class 3 max (28mph) on 5% with 720w is a ton of work, max 28mph at 15% is superhuman. At this point there is a ton of return on every addition watt you receive from your motor. Hence why the gaps on even short climbs between the two motors is so significant.

That's the point! Congratulations on the excellent presentation!

 

[Phil M]

I’d take a power update if it was there but I don’t need it, i probably ride about 2% of the time in ‘turbo’ and even that’s turned down to 90/90 (Pro model)

What’s 4kgs of weight when one rider could be 70kgs, the next 100kgs… as a % the bike weight is negligible.

Plus an Amflow for me would soon be heavier to beef it up to the spec of the Levo.

Someone said above and I agree, up the power to all similar amounts and people will focus on how the bikes ride, and from reviews I’ve seen the L4 is the best of the lot.

 

[DuncanDoughnuts]

I’d take a power update if it was there but I don’t need it, i probably ride about 2% of the time in ‘turbo’ and even that’s turned down to 90/90 (Pro model)

What’s 4kgs of weight when one rider could be 70kgs, the next 100kgs… as a % the bike weight is negligible.

Plus an Amflow for me would soon be heavier to beef it up to the spec of the Levo.

Someone said above and I agree, up the power to all similar amounts and people will focus on how the bikes ride, and from reviews I’ve seen the L4 is the best of the lot.

I only use the motor to get to the top of the climbs and will rather have a better descending bike than a powerful climber...(most of the guys I ride with are on gen2's and gen1, so its pointless getting to the top 5 min faster and having to wait anyways.

If I was a skinny 70kg rider I suppose I would want the most powerful climbing bike to get the most KOMs up the hill....
but thats not my interest or riding style.

A 115 kg rider on a amflow is not going beat a 70/80kg on a specialized, so get whats appropriate for your weight.

I think both bikes are fantastic....but aimed at different riders.

Want to climb fast and beat your mates to the top, get the Amflow.
want to race down the mountain in the sketchiest terrain you can find.. .get the Specialised ....

want a bike that can go both .... get the Commencal or Crestline. (you can have your cake and eat it) And that is the beauty of choice .... No one is forcing you into any particular brand, choose whats suites your riding style..

As for the rumoured software update.... Do I need it ...No ... Do I want it ... Yes - I just feel it would be less of a Fu** you poor boy attitude, that specialised has dished out with the two tier power system.

If I had the money would I get the S-works ... for sure.

 

[Tavares]

Eu aceitaria uma atualização de potência se estivesse disponível, mas não preciso dela. Provavelmente uso o modo 'turbo' em apenas 2% do tempo, e mesmo assim, a potência está reduzida para 90/90 (modelo Pro).

O que são 4 kg de peso quando um ciclista pode pesar 70 kg e o próximo 100 kg… em termos percentuais, o peso da bicicleta é insignificante.

Além disso, para mim, um Amflow em breve ficaria mais pesado para atingir as especificações do Levo.

Alguém comentou acima, e eu concordo, que se aumentarmos a potência para níveis semelhantes, as pessoas se concentrarão em como as motos se comportam na estrada, e pelas análises que vi, a L4 é a melhor de todas.

Não, discordo. O peso é, de fato, um fator determinante para o desempenho, tanto em bicicletas convencionais quanto em bicicletas elétricas. Os quase 5 kg extras da Specialized G4 representam quase 20% a mais de peso. Para um ciclista de 75 kg (como eu), isso é muito significativo.

E quando você diz: "Além disso, um motor Amflow seria muito mais pesado para atender às especificações do Levo", o motor Avinox é mais leve, tem mais torque e é mais de 25% mais potente que o do Levo G4. Qual é o seu raciocínio?

Quanto à análise que afirma que a Levo é a melhor, certamente é uma propaganda paga da Specialized...

Moderator Translation :

No, I disagree. Weight is, in fact, a determining factor for performance, both in conventional bicycles and in electric bicycles. The nearly 5 extra kilograms of the Specialized G4 represent almost 20% more weight. For a 75 kg rider (like me), that is very significant.

And when you say: “Moreover, an Amflow motor would be much heavier to meet the Levo’s specifications,” the Avinox motor is lighter, has more torque, and is more than 25% more powerful than the Levo G4’s. What is your reasoning?

As for the analysis claiming that the Levo is the best, it is certainly paid advertising from Specialized…

 

[Ndanger]

Não, discordo. O peso é, de fato, um fator determinante para o desempenho, tanto em bicicletas convencionais quanto em bicicletas elétricas. Os quase 5 kg extras da Specialized G4 representam quase 20% a mais de peso. Para um ciclista de 75 kg (como eu), isso é muito significativo.

E quando você diz: "Além disso, um motor Amflow seria muito mais pesado para atender às especificações do Levo", o motor Avinox é mais leve, tem mais torque e é mais de 25% mais potente que o do Levo G4. Qual é o seu raciocínio?

Quanto à análise que afirma que a Levo é a melhor, certamente é uma propaganda paga da Specializ

In regards to comments about weight, for downhill it can be an advantage for a host of reasons, for uphill not so much. The Levo is a thing of beauty in steep rugged terrain which I attribute it to the high spec components on the S works and the stability and compliance in rough stuff that weight brings to the party.


To be consistent with the language preference for the forum I have translated the post above...

No, I disagree. Weight is, in fact, a determining factor for performance, both on conventional bikes and electric bikes. The nearly 5 kg extra Specialized G4 accounts for almost 20% more weight. For a 75 kg cyclist (like me), this is very significant.

And when you say, "Also, an Amflow engine would be much heavier to meet the Levo specifications," the Avinox engine is lighter, has more torque and is more than 25% more powerful than that of the Levo G4. What is your reasoning?

As for the analysis that states that Levo is the best, it is certainly a paid advertisement from Specialized...

 

[Moderator]

@Tavares Please write in English

We realise you live in a country full of beautiful women, so it must be hard to concentrate.

However, lots of other members live in countries renown for their beers and they manage to post in English - therefore, in theory, we can all adapt to these life challenges.

Percebemos que você vive em um país cheio de mulheres bonitas, então deve ser difícil se concentrar.

No entanto, muitos outros membros vivem em países conhecidos por suas cervejas e conseguem postar em inglês — portanto, em teoria, todos nós podemos nos adaptar a esses desafios da vida.

 

[Tavares]

In regards to comments about weight, for downhill it can be an advantage for a host of reasons, for uphill not so much. The Levo is a thing of beauty in steep rugged terrain which I attribute it to the high spec components on the S works and the stability and compliance in rough stuff that weight brings to the party.


To be consistent with the language preference for the forum I have translated the post above...

No, I disagree. Weight is, in fact, a determining factor for performance, both on conventional bikes and electric bikes. The nearly 5 kg extra Specialized G4 accounts for almost 20% more weight. For a 75 kg cyclist (like me), this is very significant.

And when you say, "Also, an Amflow engine would be much heavier to meet the Levo specifications," the Avinox engine is lighter, has more torque and is more than 25% more powerful than that of the Levo G4. What is your reasoning?

As for the analysis that states that Levo is the best, it is certainly a paid advertisement from Specialized...

 

[Tavares]

Just to be clear, after the moderator pointed it out to me, all my posts are in English. If the site is having problems, it's not my fault...

@Tavares Please write in English

We realise you live in a country full of beautiful women, so it must be hard to concentrate.

However, lots of other members live in countries renown for their beers and they manage to post in English - therefore, in theory, we can all adapt to these life challenges.

Percebemos que você vive em um país cheio de mulheres bonitas, então deve ser difícil se concentrar.

No entanto, muitos outros membros vivem em países conhecidos por suas cervejas e conseguem postar em inglês — portanto, em teoria, todos nós podemos nos adaptar a esses desafios da vida.

 

[TheSnowShark]

If you use the translation feature in your language when writing your message, it won't write your message in English.

When I write in English (I'm French), if I leave the automatic translation enabled in Chrome, my posted message will be written in French.


Here is your message as I see it.

 

[Tavares]

If you use the translation feature in your language when writing your message, it won't write your message in English.

When I write in English (I'm French), if I leave the automatic translation enabled in Chrome, my posted message will be written in French.


Here is your message as I see it.

View attachment 171664

Thanks for the heads-up, I hadn't noticed and it wasn't my intention to cause a disturbance!

 

[TheSnowShark]

No problem.. Only a non-native English speaker would notice this subtle difference..