Fuel+ LX 9.9 XO or Yeti MTe T3 or Levo SL Expert gen 2?

[CaliforniaChuck]

I'm a new member, so please forgive me if I'm off base somehow with this post. I'm 70, and I've got about 3,000 miles on a Levo SL gen 1, which I've been riding for the last 3 years (Ibis Ripley before that). I ride blue/black flow trails in coastal central California, no jumps, no drops. Average ride is 20 miles, 2000 ft. vert, 2 or 3 times a week. The Levo SL is great, the range is fine for what I ride, and it's been completely reliable, but it's way too noisy and a bit underpowered (35nw, 240 watts peak), particularly heading into old(er) age!

I'm going to be buying a new SL soon (happy 71st birthday to me!), and I really like what I read about the new TQ HPR 60. It's impossible to demo any of these bikes, so I'm really interested in people's experiences.

Requirements: full 29er (no mullets), 160f/145-150r, as close to 40lbs as possible, as silent as possible, 50-60NM minimum. The Amflow PL carbon would be a contender, but no local service/warranty support makes it a no-go for me, as is also the case for the Propain Shresh and Orbea.

This will probably be my last bike, so cost isn't my first consideration (again, happy birthday to me!). I'm willing to spend for the right bike.

What would you do? Thanks in advance for your help/insight/opinions

 

[dcxs]

If you want more power, I would strongly suggest you stay away from at least the HPR50, and probably HPR60. At 100W rider input, the gen 1 SL actually provides significantly more assist in turbo. Or at least take the TQ on a long test ride before your purchase.

I haven't ridden the Levo SL gen 2 but researched it heavly for my new bike, It seems like a really good bike but slightly outdated given the price. Perhaps you can find a discounted one and wait for gen 3?
Mondraker, Cannondale and Merida has some good reviewed SL bikes. Just don't buy a Fazua!

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

Thanks for your response, much appreciated.

Do I understand correctly that it's your experience that turbo on the Levo SL gen 1 has more power than than the equivalent setting on the TQ60? (I'm not considering the older TQ50 because of both power and range issues.) That seems odd' given that the Levo is 35/240 and the TQ is 60/350, but it's certainly possible. I just got home from a 20 miler on my Levo SL gen 1 where I tested

Test rides are a thing of the past, at least in my region. When I asked where I could ride the Yeti MTe at a LBS (they are a Yeti "dealer" even though they have a total of only one Yeti bike in the store) I was told to go to the factory in Golden, Colorado. When I asked about riding the Trek Fuel+ at another LBS they had no suggestions at all. Welcome to the 21st century, where we're expected to drop $12k for a bike that we can't even see, no less ride. Go figure!

I really like many aspects of the Levo SL gen 2 (the pro build) on paper, but I'd have to buy a wheel set because it comes as a mullet, which I want no part of. So roughly $11k for the bike, maybe another $1500 for the wheels, and I get a 27.5 wheel I don't need to boot. And I'm concerned about motor noise, which Specialized says is "35% to 45%" quieter, but talk is cheap. One of the main reasons I'm in the market is that the noise from my Gen 1 Levo SL drives me crazy.

 

[Gd3fit]

I would not go for the SL gen2 given when the TQ HPR60 bikes offer in both efficiency and battery size. You can get a 580w battery and it’s 15% more efficient than the HPR50 with more torque and higher max watt at 350w. Everything I’ve read on the HPR60 has been positive and it’s even quieter than the previous gen TQ. I have the EXe and it’s so damn quiet. I now also have a Fazua ride 60 and it’s not even that loud but it def makes noise over the TQ. The range on the Fazua is really good compared to the HPR50 too.

If I hadn’t gotten the Heckler SL I would have been tempted to slap the HPR60 into the trek fuel EXe.

 

[levity]

Happy Birthday @CaliforniaChuck !

I thought I’d chime in as another senior rider from California who has faced similar decisions. I’ve owned Gen 1 and 2 Levos, a Gen 1 Levo SL, a Gen 1 Fuel EXe, and currently ride a Gen 2 Levo SL. I loved the power of the “full-fat” Levos but prefer the lighter though less powerful E-bikes. They‘re capable of climbs I’m willing to tackle just a bit slower and requiring more effort. They’ve all been fun on our local Laguna Coast Trails, the Tahoe area, at Mammoth Bike Park, and in the Moab/Canyonlands area.

The differences between the models I’ve owned are not all that great. Yes, there are small variations in power, range and bike handling, but they're all capable bikes. I imagine the EXe+ is improved over the original, but it’s not likely to be a real game changer. I’m not familiar with the Yeti. in any case, the Gen 2 Levo SL was enticing enough that when it went on sale new bike fever got the best of me, and I’m very happy with it. The 1.2 motor is a little stronger than Gen 1. It’s also a bit quieter - not whisper quiet like the Trek, but not noticeable over tire noise riding off-road (maybe your SL 1 is unusually loud). I’ve set it up with a 29er in back as you prefer, and I run 155mm crank arms. The Mastermind TCU is also very nice. You are welcome to take it for a test ride if you’re down this way (we were just up in Santa Maria near you).

All that said, my 80th birthday is coming up in a couple of months, and the new Amflow has captured my imagination! Hmmm. . .

 

[pdqmach26]

Hi
You have an Amflow dealer in Santa Barbara and San Mateo. DM if you need more info
The TQ hpr60 should be enough power for your needs. I use the older model, hpr50 and it works for me. I ride a lot of SoCal steeps, and I am not young, but have no issues with the output

 

[dcxs]

Thanks for your response, much appreciated.

Do I understand correctly that it's your experience that turbo on the Levo SL gen 1 has more power than than the equivalent setting on the TQ60? (I'm not considering the older TQ50 because of both power and range issues.) That seems odd' given that the Levo is 35/240 and the TQ is 60/350, but it's certainly possible. I just got home from a 20 miler on my Levo SL gen 1 where I tested

Test rides are a thing of the past, at least in my region. When I asked where I could ride the Yeti MTe at a LBS (they are a Yeti "dealer" even though they have a total of only one Yeti bike in the store) I was told to go to the factory in Golden, Colorado. When I asked about riding the Trek Fuel+ at another LBS they had no suggestions at all. Welcome to the 21st century, where we're expected to drop $12k for a bike that we can't even see, no less ride. Go figure!

I really like many aspects of the Levo SL gen 2 (the pro build) on paper, but I'd have to buy a wheel set because it comes as a mullet, which I want no part of. So roughly $11k for the bike, maybe another $1500 for the wheels, and I get a 27.5 wheel I don't need to boot. And I'm concerned about motor noise, which Specialized says is "35% to 45%" quieter, but talk is cheap. One of the main reasons I'm in the market is that the noise from my Gen 1 Levo SL drives me crazy.

The SL gen 1 at low rider input (100W) provides more power then the TQ, this graph explains it well I think.

The HPR50/60 is a more powerful motor, if you input a lot of power. At least 250W+ to get the 300W motor assistance.

I live in Sweden, and I think we have it even worse with test rides. It's a joke, agreed.. I went with the Amflow and am very happy with my choice overall.

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

I would not go for the SL gen2 given when the TQ HPR60 bikes offer in both efficiency and battery size. You can get a 580w battery and it’s 15% more efficient than the HPR50 with more torque and higher max watt at 350w. Everything I’ve read on the HPR60 has been positive and it’s even quieter than the previous gen TQ. I have the EXe and it’s so damn quiet. I now also have a Fazua ride 60 and it’s not even that loud but it def makes noise over the TQ. The range on the Fazua is really good compared to the HPR50 too.

If I hadn’t gotten the Heckler SL I would have been tempted to slap the HPR60 into the trek fuel EXe.

Great info, thanks. I've been waiting for an updated TQ HPR, but now that it's here I'm getting cold feet for some reason. I'm starting to think the new Yeti MTe is the obvious way to go but it's tough when you can't ride or even see the bike before buying. The TQ is also modular in terms of battery size. Both the Trek Fuel+ and the Yeti ship with the 580, but Trek said the 360, which weighs almost 2 pounds less and might be enough for my needs, can also be used. Yeti said the MTe only supports the 290 or 580, no 360 for some reason, which sucks. But maybe they'll change that down the road?

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

Happy Birthday @CaliforniaChuck !

I thought I’d chime in as another senior rider from California who has faced similar decisions. I’ve owned Gen 1 and 2 Levos, a Gen 1 Levo SL, a Gen 1 Fuel EXe, and currently ride a Gen 2 Levo SL. I loved the power of the “full-fat” Levos but prefer the lighter though less powerful E-bikes. They‘re capable of climbs I’m willing to tackle just a bit slower and requiring more effort. They’ve all been fun on our local Laguna Coast Trails, the Tahoe area, at Mammoth Bike Park, and in the Moab/Canyonlands area.

The differences between the models I’ve owned are not all that great. Yes, there are small variations in power, range and bike handling, but they're all capable bikes. I imagine the EXe+ is improved over the original, but it’s not likely to be a real game changer. I’m not familiar with the Yeti. in any case, the Gen 2 Levo SL was enticing enough that when it went on sale new bike fever got the best of me, and I’m very happy with it. The 1.2 motor is a little stronger than Gen 1. It’s also a bit quieter - not whisper quiet like the Trek, but not noticeable over tire noise riding off-road (maybe your SL 1 is unusually loud). I’ve set it up with a 29er in back as you prefer, and I run 155mm crank arms. The Mastermind TCU is also very nice. You are welcome to take it for a test ride if you’re down this way (we were just up in Santa Maria near you).

All that said, my 80th birthday is coming up in a couple of months, and the new Amflow has captured my imagination! Hmmm. . .

Great perspective, thanks! It's coming down to the Levo SL set up just as you have yours, or the Yeti (which looks like an awesome bike). I agree about the Mastermind, I like that a lot, and the Genie shock looks interesting. And I can ride one up in Santa Cruz, which isn't too far away.

And, by the way, I'm very impressed that you're still riding. I'm starting to understand what it takes to keep going, and I know it's not easy, motor or not. So thanks for the inspiration, the very helpful info, and your kind test ride offer. And I think you need a birthday present too--I hear the siren song of the Amflow calling out to you!

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

The SL gen 1 at low rider input (100W) provides more power then the TQ, this graph explains it well I think.

The HPR50/60 is a more powerful motor, if you input a lot of power. At least 250W+ to get the 300W motor assistance.

I live in Sweden, and I think we have it even worse with test rides. It's a joke, agreed.. I went with the Amflow and am very happy with my choice overall.

I get it now, thanks for the info. I'd consider the Amflow, too, I think, but the nearest dealer for warranty/service is too far away to be practical. Have you had any issues with yours? What's your take on the motor noise levels?

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

Hi
You have an Amflow dealer in Santa Barbara and San Mateo. DM if you need more info
The TQ hpr60 should be enough power for your needs. I use the older model, hpr50 and it works for me. I ride a lot of SoCal steeps, and I am not young, but have no issues with the output

Thanks, good to hear. It seems that the new HPR 60 is quieter, with much better range (and obviously a bit more power). And I like that the batteries are, at least theoretically interchangeable. So, for example, one could save about 2 pounds by changing out the 580 battery (that comes with the Yeti or the Trek) to the 360, if that was sufficent for one's needs.

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

I was finally able to demo some bikes in Santa Cruz: Levo Gen 4 and Levo SL Gen 2 the first day, Santa Cruz Vala and Heckler SL the next day. I was able to go back and forth on both bikes each day to compare them, so it was very informative.

First, I'll pass on Spesh--the Levo was just too heavy for me, and the SL was underwhelming. Still noisy, but less so, and a bit more power, but not enough for future me.

The Santa Cruz bikes were a relevation, though. I've never been on an SC before, and I was very impressed with each of these. The Vala rides much lighter than its weight, and was easy to throw around a bit. The suspension was both plush and supportive, even though the 38 fork may be a bit of overkill for where I ride. Power and range were both more than enough for me. I wasn't really considering a full-power bike, but now I'm rethinking. Overall, it's probably a bit too much bike for where I ride, and it's heavier than I want, but it felt so good that it's hard to rule out. And, as a 71 year old rider, it has all the power I'll need to matter how much older (read "weaker"!) I get while still riding. And the Bosch CX Gen 5 was very impressive, and gets great reviews pretty much everywhere.

But the winner, for me, was the HSL. I'm coming off a Gen 1 Levo SL, so the power from the Fauza 60 was fantastic. I found the motor to be very quiet and natural feeling, and I loved everything about it (well, I suppose the display and the controller could be better). The bike itself felt nimble but still planted, the weight was spot-on, and it was just a blast to ride. In fact, it was everything I've been searching for.

So, here's the thousand-dollar question: Am I nuts to buy a Fauza bike, in terms of reliability? If motor problems weren't an issue I'd buy the Heckler SL XO AXS Reserve tomorrow, without question. And I've got a good LBS (Cambria BIkes in San Luis Obispo), so warranty/service support should be there if I need it.

Help! What would you do?

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

Sorry, but one more thing: does anyone out there have a take on the TQ60 (I'm still considering the Yeti MTe, which I can't demo) vs the Fauza 60, in terms of noise/power/reliability/pedal feel? I was blown away with the power and responsiveness of the Fauza, and everything I read seems to indicate that the TQ60 doesn't have the same oomph. Opinions, please?

 

[dcxs]

There is a Fazua thread on this forum, enter it.. if you dare

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

There is a Fazua thread on this forum, enter it.. if you dare

Yeah, I've gone down that rat hole! It would be lovely to know how much of the abundant negativity is the internet megaphone effect (those with problems tend to post, those without issues not so much) and how much of it is objective, actionable intelligence. But in the end it's impossible to know.

 

[1234]

Sorry, but one more thing: does anyone out there have a take on the TQ60 (I'm still considering the Yeti MTe, which I can't demo) vs the Fauza 60, in terms of noise/power/reliability/pedal feel? I was blown away with the power and responsiveness of the Fauza, and everything I read seems to indicate that the TQ60 doesn't have the same oomph. Opinions, please?

Know a guy with a Fazua bike and a Yeti MTE, Fazua is noticeably faster. HPR60 is definitely a bit faster than the HPR50 which I have but not as boosty as the Fazua.

 

[Greg E]

Californiachuck

I've kind of been in the same boat as you. I have a Yeti 160E and while I love the bike and likely will not get rid of it sometimes I wish I had a lighter ebike. I too demoed the Santa Cruz HSL with the Fazua up at Santa Cruz HQ. Like you I loved the bike. The only thing that has kept me from getting one is the Fazua motor and all the issues you hear of. I've also done a glorified parking lot ride of the Pivot SL/AM. I really liked that bike too. Power seemed acceptable although you got that power at a higher cadence it seemed. Very nice bike and I haven't ruled it out. I plan to visit Phoenix soon and plan to take it out on a few hour demo in the dirt. I've also done a glorified parking lot ride on the Yeti MTe. Now I"m a certified Yeti freak and while the bike is awesome the TQ motor left me a little underwhelmed power wise compared to the Bosch SX and Fazua. I haven't ruled the MTe out yet. I need to do a real demo again just to confirm it isn't the one.

Spending the type of money these bikes are nowadays it's worth the effort to actually demo these things!!


Good luck with your decision.

 

[CaliforniaChuck]

Where you able to demo the Vala? I thought that it sort of falls in the middle between SLs and full-power bikes, weight-wise, at around 47 pounds with pedals. The Bosch CX felt great--more than enough power, very quiet, with a very natural reponse on the pedals. The new Kiox 400 screen is a big improvement, and provides a lot of cool info. The fit and finish is superior to the Fauza, and it's hard to find a bad word about it online. The 600w battery should also be adequate for my needs, and the new adaptive EMTB+ mode looks interesting. I alternated laps on the Vala and the HSL, over and over on the same trail, and I was surprised how similar they felt to me, which I wasn't expecting. I demoed the Levo Gen 4 the previous day on the same trail and it felt like a pig to me--I was very aware of the weight (around 53 pounds, probably a bit more), so I wasn't expecting much from the Vala. But I'd have to say that the Vala handled/felt much more like an SL than a full-power bike, and I didn't feel the extra weight while riding.

The HSL, on the other hand, is a lovely bike, and it just flat-out rips. And it's lighter! But the Fauza system is considered to be generally unreliable, the screen/controller are outdated (the IP is only 54) and feel flimsy on the bike, and the Fauza app isn't as good as the Bosch. And I'd bet there will be an updated version soon ( I'd also bet it gets a different motor when it does come out), because the current version is already more than 2 years old, which is an eternity, given how fast motor tech is changing.

So the issue, for me, comes down to how much the 4-pound weight saving is actually worth. Funny, when I put it that way, the Vala seems like the obvious choice for my needs. And it would be nice to know that the power should be sufficent as I trundle thrugh my 70s, something I'm not quite as confident the HSL will do.

I'd really like to hear your take on the Pivot SL-AM, if you do get a chance to demo it. It would be on my short list if I could ride one, but I can't (same with the Yeti MTe). Good luck, and maybe consider giving the Vala a try if you have the opportunity.

 

[martin_m_bo]

TQ has no active mode like trail mode and no micro tune. depends what you want.
You can buy a custom range extender for levo sl2 with 240wh 1 kg and 480 wh 2kg so range is no problem anymore

range extender custom sl 1.2

Extender Turbo LEVO SL, KENEVO SL, CREO SL y VADO SL - Bag

Additional battery kit, range extender of 270Wh or 540Wh for e-bikes Specialized Turbo Levo SL, Kenevo SL, Creo SL and Vado SL.Valid for Bicycle Specialized SL 1.1 and 1.2 versions.Weight: 1kg / 2kg

www.volabike.com

 

[Scott_123]

I currently have the Spectral Onfly with the TQ50 motor. I’m 63 and have put about 860 miles on it. The TQ 50 or 60 motors are great but if this is going to be your last bike I would go full power because in the next few years mid-power and full-power are going to merge into one. Most manufacturers are backing off R&D on mid-power because the consumer is speaking with their wallet and overwhelmingly spending money on full power. I personally don’t like it, but that’s the way it is. Amflow and a few others are finally getting the weight close to the mid-power, and once that happens it’s lights out for mid power because the consumer is not that interested in 50-60 Nm bikes which I think is unfortunate but it is what it is.

 

[Jengle]

For a test drive..go to 2Peaks bike shop in Los Angeles. It’s on Westwood Blvd and Santa Monica Blvd. You can test ride and even rent a MTe. Ask for Oz or Andre