Finally, some awareness begins.

[Mikerb]

As @Paulquattro posted a bove there is no such thing as an " EBIKE" and we are as guilty as the media by using a term that does not exist anywhere in law. There are bicycles, pedelecs ( which are classified as bicycles for legal purposes) and motorcycles/mopeds. We should not expect the media to know any better......but even recent reports by the police in the UK demonstrate that they are not a lot better informed. On one report a UK PC reporting on bikes that had been seized said he could tell if the bike was illegal by the size of the rear hub motor!! The term EMTB ( Electric MounTain Bike) is OK I guess but the term Bike or Biker is often used for motorcycles as well. We seem reluctant to use the word "bicycle"!
As for derestriction, as tempting as it is, especially in the UK, it makes a Pedelec illegal and presents a threat of future further regulations.
Central to the issue is the fact that few if any enforcement authorities have any real means of identifying the difference between a pedelec and a motorcycle without first seizing the bike and running some tests.....even then those tests are rudimentary. On one police report in the UK the PC said he could lift the back wheel and see what maximum speed the speedo reported.............that presumably takes 2 PCs and assumes the speedo reports the correct speed. I think he was referring to a vehicle with a throttle, and of course that is not permitted on a pedelec so he needed not bother!!

 

[The undecided]

In the UK kids riding electric scooters on pavements and paths, particularly in urban areas, are a serious hazard.

And adults as well using them for that matter too
The problem in Scotland is the sheer lack of Police these days means it’s a free for all and what Police are actually visible just turn a blind eye.

 

[Bontee]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek, lots of folks will rightly call out a Sur-Ron being ridden in public or an electric motorbike like the one in the OP, but many seem to have no problem with a UK Pedelec e-bike in ‘NZ mode’, for example.

I tend to agree with you, the UK law is the law and the assist limit is the limit, as much as people don’t like it.

I still think it’s worth pointing out poor reporting though.

Where’s your evidence that “many seem to have no problem” I don’t know a single rider (and I know a lot)that thinks this.

 

[Stihldog]

These guys.

They occasionally use the fire roads and trails on this mountain.(maybe twice a year).There has been a group of 8 in this area. The guy in the middle is extremely accomplished. Gaps, features etc.

They offered to let me try…I said “NO f***ing way”!
There’s also a young guy who uses an electric skateboard sometimes. A large mono wheel thingy.

But the jury is out …how do you control all the different conveyances?

 

[Fangs2k]

Where’s your evidence that “many seem to have no problem” I don’t know a single rider (and I know a lot)that thinks this.

It was tongue in cheek, and I don’t need ‘evidence’, this isn’t a court and there’s really no need to sealion about it.

But, check out the de-restriction section, even on here many will be happy with a bit more pedal assist speed, and whilst I’m not saying such bikes are in the same league as a Sur-Ron or Talaria electric motorbike, they’re still ‘illegal’ across most of the EU if not the US and NZ.

Like somebody said earlier, a bicycle is either legal or it isn’t, you can’t be a ‘little bit’ illegal. Honestly, how many Amflow’s are running the UK firmware and adhering to the 15.6mph cut off, not many I’d say even based on the Facebook groups etc.

 

[Stihldog]

Just finished a ride, on my way out I ran into an RCMP friend who said he clocked an electric scooter racing on a sidewalk at 45+kph. The chase was on but the scooter went down a walking trail. Chase was over.

He expressed that it’s difficult to identify rating for electric’s. He rides an EMTB so he has some knowledge.

 

[Downhillr]

Power and speed limits seem most important to me, I get the thing with throttles, but electric scooters are obviously throttle only and haven’t been too much of a problem. It’s the speed limit and overall power (Getting to that speed limit super quickly is just inherently more dangerous). But man, I don’t know why the EU decided on the silly 25kph limit, just crazy slow. The 20mph we have in the US and a few other countries seems a lot more reasonable.

Have to agree on speed limiting, 15 mph seems kinda stiff since non-motorized bikes hit that easily enough…. The 20 mph limit sounds like a better idea which would cover more situations, you can exceed it depending on road, just don’t supply e-assist beyond that.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

The whole idea of 'legal' ebike, 'illegal' ebike etc is abhorrent to me. I find it actually disgusting that people think they have the right to dictate to others what is a 'legal' bike. Coming from a motorsport background before getting into bikes. The culture in the bike industry is so hyper authoritarian, and that's really saying something considering the wrap and demonisation that modified cars get. I just cant believe the mentality of some of these people. And that this hyper authoritarianism is actually celerebrated is so baffling to me.

If you look at cars for example, you can go buy a 60hp hatchback, or a 1000hp supercar. The super car isn't speed restricted, it isn't power restricted. There are ofocourse licensesing, speed limits, and road safety rules, which dictate when and where the car can be used to its potential. But these restrictions don't blanket restrict the vehicle (apart from the emissions rules). They restrict when that vehicle can be used at a certain level. It is up to the person operating the vehicle, to do so in a responsible way. There are locations and events where it is acceptable to use these vehicle to thier max potential. For example drag racing, targa rally events, track days, skid pans etc. And even some motorways even have open limits.

You wouldn't walk up to hyper car parked on the side of the street and start abusing the owner because his car isn't speed limited or power limited, and has more power than your own car. Atleast not unless you were some kind of Karen / Jerk. Yet bike riders feel entitled to this when they see an electric bike. But if that same car was doing doughnuts in the street, or speeding infront of a school etc, then ofcourse that is a different thing. The key difference here is how the operator is operating the vehicle. Yet when it comes to bikes, people often go straight on the offensive because the bike simply exists, irrespective of whether it is being operated in a responsible way or not. And there is this assumption that because there is eveb a possibility of the vehicle being operated irresponsibly, then the default response should be to limit, restrict and ban the vehicle. Not persecute the operator in the event that they operate it irresponsibly. Its akin to putting someone in prison BEFORE they commit a crime.

I understand there is a huge issue with reckless driving electric bikes / motorbikes / surrons etc in public places. Doing wheelies through shopping malls. Weaving in and out of traffic on the road and doing stunts down suburban roads etc. Using hi powered bikes on dedicated MTB trails etc. But this doesn't need to result in banning everything. It still comes down to operator. And if anything it points to a lack of dedicated space/venue in which to use these vehicles safely.

Dunno. Just my 2c

 

[Fangs2k]

If you look at cars for example

What do cars have to do with it? All cars to be legal have to be type approved, registered, insured and the driver has to be licensed and demonstrate a basic competence. It’s also limited where they can be driven in public.

You can buy and ride an electric motorbike (which is what’s being talked about here), whether that’s an off the shelf one, modified/de-restricted or home built, as long as you jump through some similar hoops to owning and driving a car. It can be done legally.

Pedelecs, due to their low power assist, are classified in most places in the world the same as bicycles and can be ridden in the same places as a non-powered bike.

That’s a huge benefit, everybody who rides an illegal ‘e-bike’ not only gives the bikes I ride an image problem but risks legal e-bikes being more regulated and restricted as to where they can be ridden.

Whether you’re riding an off the shelf electric motorbike unlicensed or de-restricting your pedelec so that it can assist to nearly twice the EU limit doesn’t really matter, unless you’re riding it on private land or another appropriate place it’s slowly killing it for everybody else.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

What do cars have to do with it? All cars to be legal have to be type approved, registered, insured and the driver has to be licensed and demonstrate a basic competence. It’s also limited where they can be driven in public.

You can buy and ride an electric motorbike (which is what’s being talked about here), whether that’s an off the shelf one, modified/de-restricted or home built, as long as you jump through some similar hoops to owning and driving a car. It can be done legally.

Pedelecs, due to their low power assist, are classified in most places in the world the same as bicycles and can be ridden in the same places as a non-powered bike.

That’s a huge benefit, everybody who rides an illegal ‘e-bike’ not only gives the bikes I ride an image problem but risks legal e-bikes being more regulated and restricted as to where they can be ridden.

Whether you’re riding an off the shelf electric motorbike unlicensed or de-restricting your pedelec so that it can assist to nearly twice the EU limit doesn’t really matter, unless you’re riding it on private land or another appropriate place it’s slowly killing it for everybody else.

The car analogy is pretty simply to follow. Cars don't have restrictions on hp or speed like bikes do. Its up to the person driving the car, to do so safely and responsibly, in the appropriate location.

Why do you need to lock a speed limit on a bike when speeding is already an offence?
Why do you need to cap a power limit on a bike when reckless driving is already an offence?

Its like banning kitchen knives when murder is already a crime. Its a very European mindset. It never works on anything from drugs to well, getting stabbed by kitchen knives, and ultimately it just ends up restricting those that follow the rules. Because if someone is already breaking one rule, adding a second rule isnt going to change anything.

Not only does it hinder responsible users who might want to experience more power or speed. It also hinders technological advancements. Its like NASCAR mandating push rod engines, effectively keeping American engine development stuck in the 50s.

To be honest, im really not surprised this type of mindset is so prevalent in MTB circles. MTB is a very eleitest click. Its basically a bunch of grandads stuck in middle-aged bodies. The economic barrier to entry with name brand eMTB manufacturers cultures a very specific demographic. All I picture whenever some advocates for speed/power restrictions on bikes is an old man shaking his fist in the air yelling "get off my lawn".

 

[Fangs2k]

The car analogy is pretty simply to follow. Cars don't have restrictions on hp or speed like bikes do. Its up to the person driving the car, to do so safely and responsibly, in the appropriate location.

Exactly, and you can buy and ride an unrestricted electric bike, but you have to comply with some rules and regs the same as any car, like getting a licence, insurance etc. You can do it but just because some people can’t be arsed with all that doesn’t mean there should be a free for all.

Why do you need to lock a speed limit on a bike when speeding is already an offence?
Why do you need to cap a power limit on a bike when reckless driving is already an offence?

Again, you can buy electric bikes without assist limits or power/speed restrictions, they’re just not pedalecs that can be ridden anywhere a normal bicycle can be ridden.

MTB is a very eleitest click. Its basically a bunch of grandads stuck in middle-aged bodies. The economic barrier to entry with name brand eMTB manufacturers cultures a very specific demographic. All I picture whenever some advocates for speed/power restrictions on bikes is an old man shaking his fist in the air yelling "get off my lawn".

I think that says more about you than it does paint an accurate picture of who rides EMTBs, that’s before you look at the bloke who pays for the site you’re posting on.

I’ve got young kids, I’m not a ‘grandad’, and I’d rather they’re not sharing the same cycling spaces with effectively unrestricted electric motorbikes, so for me ‘ze rules’ make a lot of sense.

One more time, you can buy whatever bike you like, just don’t expect to be able to legally ride it wherever you want if it isn’t a legal e-bike. It’s really not difficult.

 

[Mikerb]

There is always an apparent tendency for commentators on this topic to ignore the fact that by far the biggest market for both bicycles and bicycles with electric motor assistance is " on road" not mountain biking. We (emtb ers) are a small niche. Bicycles are free from virtually every regulation applicable to every other form of personal mobility.....ridden by all age groups from 2 years old onwards. Any attempted comparison with cars is invalid.
To be clear, bicycles whether motor assisted or not, bicycles ( and a pedelec is a bicycle) are not subject to speed or indeed power limits. The limitation applies to the power of any motor assistance and the maximum speed it can continue to deliver any assistance.

The sort of developments that would help those of us riding EMTBs is not more powerful motors, derestriction devices, or vain attempts to get regulating authorities to rewrite the rule books.
What would help is bike weight reduction, 100% freewheel after motor cut off, and tyres that deliver less rolling resistance whilst retaining good grip and puncture protection.
If some or all that was delivered the rest is down to the rider.

 

[Bontee]

It was tongue in cheek, and I don’t need ‘evidence’, this isn’t a court and there’s really no need to sealion about it.

But, check out the de-restriction section, even on here many will be happy with a bit more pedal assist speed, and whilst I’m not saying such bikes are in the same league as a Sur-Ron or Talaria electric motorbike, they’re still ‘illegal’ across most of the EU if not the US and NZ.

Like somebody said earlier, a bicycle is either legal or it isn’t, you can’t be a ‘little bit’ illegal. Honestly, how many Amflow’s are running the UK firmware and adhering to the 15.6mph cut off, not many I’d say even based on the Facebook groups etc.

Yes and a lot of those complaining don’t live in the UK.
As for Amflows,the numbers involved ,if you are going to make a claim ,need to be backed up or it’s just an opinion based on a facebook group.
I would be interested to know out of the total number of pedalecs ,what percentage are as you say running NZ firmware.Probably not as many as you think,either way it;s academic.
If you are on an illegal bike and the police catch you and crush it…too bad.
The police , are despite a slow start, clamping down on these and I for one am very pleased.
The car analogy is quite fair in my opinion simply because people in cars don’t generally drive on the pavements or on cycle ways or footpaths at excessive speed.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Exactly, and you can buy and ride an unrestricted electric bike, but you have to comply with some rules and regs the same as any car, like getting a licence, insurance etc. You can do it but just because some people can’t be arsed with all that doesn’t mean there should be a free for all.

That is the exact opposite. Cars are not restricted out of the factory like bikes. You can take even the most basic low budget commuter car, put your foot on the gas and exceed the speed limit. An electric bike is hard wired / programed that way out of the box. You literally cannot exceed the limit, unless you ride down a slight hill. Which just goes to highlight how ridiculous the limit is, that riding down a hill using nothing more than gravity can break it.

If the speed limit must be set at 25kph, why are push bikes capable of going faster than 25kph? Why are downhill bikes capable of going faster than 25kph? Surely, in the interest of safety for all, these bikes should have a device that automatically applies the brakes at 26kph. It should be mandatory, and it should be installed as an integrated part of the bike, that is not easily removed or circumvented.

Again, you can buy electric bikes without assist limits or power/speed restrictions, they’re just not pedalecs that can be ridden anywhere a normal bicycle can be ridden.

Thankfully there are bikes that can be purchased or built around the ridiculous limit. The unfortunate thing is that it is a limited choice, from obscure manufacturers, and the vast majority of commercial options are restricted. Even exceeding the speed limit, you are still power limited. And this is often a physical hardware limitation, eg the motors, controller or batteries are incapable of running hotter. The hilarious part is that you often get more performance for less money in most cases. I do get a good chuckle with that one.

I think that says more about you than it does paint an accurate picture of who rides EMTBs, that’s before you look at the bloke who pays for the site you’re posting on.

I’ve got young kids, I’m not a ‘grandad’, and I’d rather they’re not sharing the same cycling spaces with effectively unrestricted electric motorbikes, so for me ‘ze rules’ make a lot of sense.

I've got young kids aswell. And I don't want them to grow up in a nanny state, devoid of fun, risk, adventure. Because today its banning bikes, tomorrow maybe its banning the internet or banning leaving your suburb or banning incorrect thought, or God knows what else.

One more time, you can buy whatever bike you like, just don’t expect to be able to legally ride it wherever you want if it isn’t a legal e-bike. It’s really not difficult.

One more time, you are missing the point, the bikes are built and sold ALREADY restricted/limited. There is no choice when someone else has mandated it. Even if you wanted to ride one on private property or a sanctioned location above the limit, you couldn't.

I think the point im trying to make here is that blanket bans are the exact opposite of personal responsibility and individual consequence. Its innocent people getting penalised for the actions of other reckless individuals. That should NEVER be acceptable.

I mean just take a step back and think about the term "illegal bike". What the actual fuck is wrong with the world when that is a thing?

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

TlAny attempted comparison with cars is invalid.

That's not true. Because there is nothing stopping anyone from driving a car. Yes, you must be licensed to drive on the road, but the car doesn't refuse to work if an unlicensed or underage driver sits in the seat. Its not enforced in the hardware.

To be clear, bicycles whether motor assisted or not, bicycles ( and a pedelec is a bicycle) are not subject to speed or indeed power limits. The limitation applies to the power of any motor assistance and the maximum speed it can continue to deliver any assistance.

That is the problem, they shouldn't be.

The sort of developments that would help those of us riding EMTBs is not more powerful motors, derestriction devices, or vain attempts to get regulating authorities to rewrite the rule books.
What would help is bike weight reduction,

Less weight. Hahaha. Meanwhile the guys riding DHWC, redbull hardines / urbans etc are literally cable tie-ing lead ballast to the down tubes To make them ride like ebikes. The brainwashing runs deep in bike lalaland.

100% freewheel after motor cut off, and tyres that deliver less rolling resistance whilst retaining good grip and puncture protection.
If some or all that was delivered the rest is down to the rider.

Sometimes its not about being a better rider, its about adrenaline, its speed, its fun, And quite frankly a restricted bike just doesn't cut it, unless your riding some high consequence stuff.

 

[Fangs2k]

If the speed limit must be set at 25kph, why are push bikes capable of going faster than 25kph?

It’s not a speed limit, it’s an assist limit.

I can pedal my e-bike faster than 25kph, but it’s under my own leg power.

This isn’t hard, if you want something with a higher limit, ie an electric motorbike, buy one and make you and the bike road legal or accept you can only ride it on private land.

Meantime, pedelecs exist in a unique category and as a result can legally be ridden anywhere a bicycle can be, which is a good thing.

How is it a ‘nanny state’ when you can also buy an unrestricted electric bike, and subject to the same things you need to do to drive an ‘unlimited’ car, you can own and ride it?

You’re lumping all two wheeled things into the same category, and it’s more complex than that.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

It’s not a speed limit, it’s an assist limit.

Semantics

I can pedal my e-bike faster than 25kph, but it’s under my own leg power.

Yes, but why are you not restricted? I mean, if 25 is the safety limit, why even allow it. And surely, you wouldn't exceed 25 with your legs, because wouldn't you feel bad inside?

This isn’t hard, if you want something with a higher limit, ie an electric motorbike, buy one and make you and the bike road legal or accept you can only ride it on private land.

That's exactly what i do. I consider myself somewhat of an enthusiast when it comes to hi power electric mountain bikes. I don't ride on the road, so why would it need to be road legal? This is the thing that's so baffling. Why are offroad vehicles like mountain bikes for example subject to road restrictions? They should be free of any restriction, and then, if ridden on road, or cycle path or whatever, it should be up to operator, to operate them in an acceptable manner or not in a restricted area. Failing to do so, could incur a monetary fine or what ever. Why the need to Mandate a limit for sale and equip hardware limitations?

Meantime, pedelecs exist in a unique category and as a result can legally be ridden anywhere a bicycle can be, which is a good thing.

How is it a ‘nanny state’ when you can also buy an unrestricted electric bike, and subject to the same things you need to do to drive an ‘unlimited’ car, you can own and ride it?

Its a nanny state in the fact that they are mandated to be sold with restrictions built in. Why is that so hard to grasp? That is pretty much the definition of nanny state. When the state uses its power to do shit just like that.

You’re lumping all two wheeled things into the same category, and it’s more complex than that.

Yeah 100% there are dozens of different motorised vehicles fram skate boards, scooters, bikes (with or without pedals), e motos, one wheels, karts, wheelbarrows, everything and anything with wheels has been electrified. Again, penalise those individuals that are breaking rules, not the entire category.

 

[Mikerb]

Every single vehicle with a power source other than a pedelec is regulated by law. Perhaps you need to understand the background and bigger picture related to EPACs/Pedelecs to realise why pedelecs are regulated as they are.
Firstly, recognise that the biggest market and use of electric motor powered bicycles is on the road....not offroad.
So you start with every powered vehicle on the road before the advent of pedelecs being regulated by the relevant Road Traffic Acts in virtually every country. The first aspect of that is Type Approval. Every type of vehicle offered for sale must go through rigorous safety checks including crash tests. That also applies to components used like tyres lights etc. That is a very expensive process.
Then you have the full set every car owners is aware of.....registration, tax, insurance, MOT tests , driving licences etc.
So along comes 2 wheeled vehicles with an electric motor and lithium battery, so it has to be integrated somehow into the regulation. Certainly in Europe the EU thought the easiest solution was to classify them as mopeds, so lights, horn, type approval, registration, insurance,helmets etc. A concerted campaign by various associations managed to persuade the regulators not to do that. The subsequent agreement was for a limit to power and speed well below that of a typical moped......the pedelec/EPAC. The principle victory was that it enjoyed the same status as any other bicycle.

So accept the restrictions and buy one. Significant numbers of people have.
Not prepared to accept the restrictions? Buy a motorbike and stay on the road.......or buy an mx bike and attend sanctioned events. Or buy an " analogue" bike and go as fast as your legs will power you.

Personally, I moved from mtb to emtb at 69 years old simple because my favoured riding is natural forest gravity trails and a typical ride was 10% adrenaline and 90% sweat and strain. Gravity delivers speed for me .....I just need the motor to get back to the trail head ......25k cut off does not bother me. 75 years old now and hitting those trails better than ever.

 

[Bontee]

Semantics

Yes, but why are you not restricted? I mean, if 25 is the safety limit, why even allow it. And surely, you wouldn't exceed 25 with your legs, because wouldn't you feel bad inside?

That's exactly what i do. I consider myself somewhat of an enthusiast when it comes to hi power electric mountain bikes. I don't ride on the road, so why would it need to be road legal? This is the thing that's so baffling. Why are offroad vehicles like mountain bikes for example subject to road restrictions? They should be free of any restriction, and then, if ridden on road, or cycle path or whatever, it should be up to operator, to operate them in an acceptable manner or not in a restricted area. Failing to do so, could incur a monetary fine or what ever. Why the need to Mandate a limit for sale and equip hardware limitations?

Its a nanny state in the fact that they are mandated to be sold with restrictions built in. Why is that so hard to grasp? That is pretty much the definition of nanny state. When the state uses its power to do shit just like that.

Yeah 100% there are dozens of different motorised vehicles fram skate boards, scooters, bikes (with or without pedals), e motos, one wheels, karts, wheelbarrows, everything and anything with wheels has been electrified. Again, penalise those individuals that are breaking rules, not the entire category.

No they should absolutely not be free of all restrictions,you clearly have no knowledge of the way the rights of way act works in the UK.In Australia you do not have Bridleways,RUPPS and BOATS are open to unrestricted vehicles .
To ride unrestricted bikes on some of these paths would be madness.
As for your nanny state comment,you couldn’t be more wrong ,you are attempting (badly) to comment on the laws in a country on the other side of the planet.
We are a small island,you are a continent,we in the UK are lucky to have the most accurately mapped trail network in the world,courtesy of the Ordnance survey.
We are also lucky that our bikes ,(however much it grieves you )have full access to trails as would ordinary pedal cycles.
You have nothing like our trail network.
I have friends in Australia,(Perth coincidentally to be exact )with whom I have ridden across Japan twice and France once,and who have ridden in the UK and are staggered by our rights of way network,so please try not to compare what you want to do in Australia to what we have here in the .UK
The rules are there for a reason.every country is different and your rules don’t apply over here.

 

[LeftItLancs]

I am struggling to understand why someone would voluntarily fork out a large amount of cash on a vehicle (pedelec) that they are already fully aware is restricted, but then complain about a nanny state afterwards.

Why on earth didn't they just legally buy an unrestricted ebike instead, requiring a licence, registration, and insurance?

A 14-year-old (or a 50-year-old) blasting around shared public spaces on an illegal unrestricted ebike at 60 + MPH (with no insurance) is just a fatal accident waiting to happen, whether it be them, the child in the pram they careered into on a blind corner, or otherwise.

Of course, the challenge for any government is balancing access with public safety, and hopefully without unnecessarily infringing on personal freedoms.

But as there is already a clear solution here for a consumer, both routes technically legal, I just can't understand the allegation of nanny state.

 

[Old Codger]

I think the point im trying to make here is that blanket bans are the exact opposite of personal responsibility and individual consequence. Its innocent people getting penalised for the actions of other reckless individuals. That should NEVER be acceptable.

Does your blanket ban dislike extent to guns, knives, hand granades etc? Just asking.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Does your blanket ban dislike extent to guns, knives, hand granades etc? Just asking.

Yes. Clearly blanket bans don't work. Let's look at the US city of Chicago as a bit of a case study. Chicago has a rate of 6 x more gun homicide than New York, and 3 x more than Los Angeles. In Chicago, someone is killed with a gun every 6 hours. Interestedly, 50% of gun homicide is represented by a subset demographic comprising just 14.6 of the population. Chicago /Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the US. But for some reason its just not really working. Its almost like criminals don't follow bans.

Knife bans are just as ridiculous. People have been inflicting violence on other people for millennia. Well before the advent of kitchen knives. Whether using wooden spears with flint stones on the end. Clubs, stones, arrows, fists. Tools like screwdrivers, carpenters chisels, etc can puncture flesh just as good as a knife.

Dogs teeth can puncture human flesh pretty good, and also cause severe wound infections. Perhaps we should we put a blanket ban on dog ownership to prevent all dog bites? Maybe the solution is to surgically remove all dog incisors? Perhaps we just ban any dog that can open its jaws wider than some arbitrary value like the width of a human hand.

 

[Astro66]

I'm getting an EP801 bike, 170mm, massively discounted,

I have a 2025 EP801 in a 160mm E160 Merida. I have fitted full Shimano Electronic Transmission. I had a 2024 E160 with the EP6 for 18 months prior. I fitted the Shimano Linkglide full electronic transmission with Autoshift to that bike.

Both are brilliant EMTBs. But I noticed the 100 watt performance upgrade going from EP6 to the EP801, in my ability to climb.

Stepping from that to the Amflow is quite the leap. Even the people I ride with, have noticed my skills improve on the Amflow. I jump better. I climb better. I bunny hop better. I wheelie better. I just look like a better rider, is the comments I get from all of them. I put it down to the weight reduction, the power delivery, and the control of that power I can achieve with my feet. There is a reason the EP801 EMTBs are so heavily discounted.

I remember when I went from the long straight snow skis, to the modern carve skis. My skiing improved like I had taken 2 years of lessons. That was the same step forward I took on the Amflow.

I know you won't get the Amflow, because you prioritise different rider needs. But from someone who owns and rides both the EP801 and the Avinox systems in identical travel EMTBs, concurrently. There just isn't a comparison. And as a result. The Merida has been ridden once since taking possession of the Amflow. I just have more fun on the Amflow. And the Merida will remain in my stable as a spare, due to the new nature of the Avinox System.

You will love the EP801. It's my sentimental favourite motor. And getting back on topic. I love how easily it can have it's region changed.

 

[Fangs2k]

Perhaps we should we put a blanket ban on dog ownership to prevent all dog bites?

The thread has drifted somewhat, but to use your example to try and get back on the topic, it would be like the press running a story that a zoo keeper had been eaten by a Lion but reporting it as a family dog being the perpetrator.

The way ‘e-bike’ stuff gets reported in mainstream media is likely why lots of people think a road and trail legal EMTB is the same as a Surron or Talaria.

RC model flying here in the UK and most of the rest of the world has changed beyond recognition since ‘drones’ arrived, it’s massively more regulated and expensive as a result and lots of people have left the hobby. Sure, some people ignore all that and just crack on anyway, but it was those people and crucially the way every drone infringement was reported in the press that contributed to get us here and stoked the calls for more regulation.

Sound familiar?

 

[Mikerb]

Well said! It's good some seem to have found their Nirvana with the Amflow but meanwhile I have never even seen one or know of any local shops selling them. I bought a new bike recently and given I already have a Whyte e160 RSX .....well in fact 2 of them the oldest being 2022.....I wanted just a pure trail bike. I chose a Levo Comp gen 3 at a knockdown price. I have never felt I needed more power with the Levo at 90nm or the Whytes at 85nm.
Seeing we seem to have regularly bow at the altar of Amflow I will give a shout out for Whyte. Both e160 RSXs are specced with all the components I would select if building my own bike, both are fully Enduro capable, both have been completely reliable and fault free. The newer of the 2 was bought in 2024 .........for £5800....bargain! So vfm, proven brand, excellent handling both up and down, proven Bosch motor and system, local dealers......no fanfare just fit for purpose.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

I am struggling to understand why someone would voluntarily fork out a large amount of cash on a vehicle (pedelec) that they are already fully aware is restricted, but then complain about a nanny state afterwards.

Oh man I 100% agree with you there. I've never even owned a restricted bike. I almost did. But at the end of the day, one of my core principles called "don't be a cuck" won out and I decided against it. Prior to 2021 I was right into regular MTB. Riding 2 or 3 times a week. 35yr old man. Life was great, killer job young family. And then I contracted a serious heart condition called myopericarditis. (Result of another wonderful blanket mandate BTW) It floored me. Actually damn near killed me. Was diagnosed, and spent week on life support in the cardio ward at RPH. Troponin, ST elevations, palpation, erratic beat. Full blown case. Heart was about to explode. A further month bed ridden, and a further year before I was able to even sit on a bike again. That was the point I decided I actually needed an ebike. So the hunt began, and I looked at a few options at the time. Pretty slim pickings. And nothing that felt good. Ive got a motor bike, and spent a fair bit of my 20s building and racing amatuer tarmac rally cars. And i was honestly surprised how underpwered and well just crappy the bikes i was testing at the time. Plus price was bonkers. I actually sold a Trek the year before for more than I paid for it new. And that's when I stumbled across the ultra powered rigs, and I knew right away, it was gonna be with something like that. Legit best bike I've ever owned. Now 3 years on and im accustomed to the power, and have an x1 rig. My myopericarditis has cleared up, I haven't regained anywhere near the cardio I had prior but atleast im out riding and not a statistic. Every time I ride my bike I think, thank God I don't own one of those slow arse "Pleb" bikes. That's what I call them. Because its like everytime I see someone riding one, thier always a pleb.

Why on earth didn't they just legally buy an unrestricted ebike instead, requiring a licence, registration, and insurance?

Thankfully you don't require a license, registration or insurance to ride a bike in the bush. Imagine living in a world like that?

A 14-year-old (or a 50-year-old) blasting around shared public spaces on an illegal unrestricted ebike at 60 + MPH (with no insurance) is just a fatal accident waiting to happen, whether it be them, the child in the pram they careered into on a blind corner, or otherwise.

Oh yeah, I agree there too. 100% there should legal repercussions for reckless riding. Like flogging down escalators in shopping malls, or doing skids and wheelies in busy pedastrian areas, reckless driving through the streets. Blasting past people jogging or walking their dog. Thats all fatherless behavior. Here we have things like hoon laws that could quite easily be adapted to combat that kind of non-sense. I just really struggle with a blanket ban that restricts people that don't engage in that kind of behaviour.

Of course, the challenge for any government is balancing access with public safety, and hopefully without unnecessarily infringing on personal freedoms.

Its a tough one. Im not a policy maker. Im just an enthusiast. I only see the situation through my lived experience.

But as there is already a clear solution here for a consumer, both routes technically legal, I just can't understand the allegation of nanny state.

I guess, you just don't realise it until you have lived it. I saw the nanny state for what it was after being forced to take what turned out to be a near fatal injection. And then being ostracised, discriminated, refused entry and generally treated like a piece shit, because having a second dose was state mandated, and i literally had doctors signing Immunisation Registry document stating I had a near fatal reaction after the first dose.

 

[RustyMTB]

I see Dezi Freeman's rolled into town.

 

[Mikerb]

Oh man I 100% agree with you there. I've never even owned a restricted bike. I almost did. But at the end of the day, one of my core principles called "don't be a cuck" won out and I decided against it. Prior to 2021 I was right into regular MTB. Riding 2 or 3 times a week. 35yr old man. Life was great, killer job young family. And then I contracted a serious heart condition called myopericarditis. (Result of another wonderful blanket mandate BTW) It floored me. Actually damn near killed me. Was diagnosed, and spent week on life support in the cardio ward at RPH. Troponin, ST elevations, palpation, erratic beat. Full blown case. Heart was about to explode. A further month bed ridden, and a further year before I was able to even sit on a bike again. That was the point I decided I actually needed an ebike. So the hunt began, and I looked at a few options at the time. Pretty slim pickings. And nothing that felt good. Ive got a motor bike, and spent a fair bit of my 20s building and racing amatuer tarmac rally cars. And i was honestly surprised how underpwered and well just crappy the bikes i was testing at the time. Plus price was bonkers. I actually sold a Trek the year before for more than I paid for it new. And that's when I stumbled across the ultra powered rigs, and I knew right away, it was gonna be with something like that. Legit best bike I've ever owned. Now 3 years on and im accustomed to the power, and have an x1 rig. My myopericarditis has cleared up, I haven't regained anywhere near the cardio I had prior but atleast im out riding and not a statistic. Every time I ride my bike I think, thank God I don't own one of those slow arse "Pleb" bikes. That's what I call them. Because its like everytime I see someone riding one, thier always a pleb.



Thankfully you don't require a license, registration or insurance to ride a bike in the bush. Imagine living in a world like that?


Oh yeah, I agree there too. 100% there should legal repercussions for reckless riding. Like flogging down escalators in shopping malls, or doing skids and wheelies in busy pedastrian areas, reckless driving through the streets. Blasting past people jogging or walking their dog. Thats all fatherless behavior. Here we have things like hoon laws that could quite easily be adapted to combat that kind of non-sense. I just really struggle with a blanket ban that restricts people that don't engage in that kind of behaviour.


Its a tough one. Im not a policy maker. Im just an enthusiast. I only see the situation through my lived experience.

I guess, you just don't realise it until you have lived it. I saw the nanny state for what it was after being forced to take what turned out to be a near fatal injection. And then being ostracised, discriminated, refused entry and generally treated like a piece shit, because having a second dose was state mandated, and i literally had doctors signing Immunisation Registry document stating I had a near fatal reaction after the first dose.

I think we can all sympathise with you concerning your health issues but better to learn from it than let it guide your outlook on life. If the issue with your heart has been mostly dealt with I would bet your cardio is probably still better than mine which has had to survive 7.5 decades of use and one of those jabs you referred to! I still need no more than 85nm!! .........and learnt not to have any more of the jabs you referred to.
The emtb is not merely an mtb with a motor....that is a mistake even experienced reviewers make. It is a different bicycle and best suited to specific terrain and use. No other bicycle can match it for technical uphill and with the right gradient it is faster and more stable downhill. On the flat and mellow downhill is where the extra weight and motor cut off makes it slower than an mtb....so pick the right terrain. You will not improve your cardio riding something that requires little rider input!

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

I think we can all sympathise with you concerning your health issues but better to learn from it than let it guide your outlook on life.

thanks. thats all in the past now. Took me a little while to grasp the situation and come to terms with it. Every once in while i still get a little PTSD bubble through to the surface. Day to day it doesn't really affect me, even though that probably came across as quite nutso.

If the issue with your heart has been mostly dealt with I would bet your cardio is probably still better than mine which has had to survive 7.5 decades of use and one of those jabs you referred to! I still need no more than 85nm!! .........and learnt not to have any more of the jabs you referred to.

Yeah good on you. So many of my friends folks, and family are stroking out or getting cancer before 75. My old boy had his kidney removed because it randomly and quite rapidly turned into a huge tumour the other year. And a good friends dad just started stroking recently too.

The emtb is not merely an mtb with a motor....that is a mistake even experienced reviewers make. It is a different bicycle and best suited to specific terrain and use. No other bicycle can match it for technical uphill and with the right gradient it is faster and more stable downhill. On the flat and mellow downhill is where the extra weight and motor cut off makes it slower than an mtb....so pick the right terrain.

Well that's one take. It is kinda the vibe you get with name brand offerings. Which, if you think about it is probably shaped by what they are allowed to sell. But its not what I personally want out of an electric mountain bike, and I don't think it it should be the only option for electric mountain biking. For me, im a motor head. I love the feeling of power. I want to ride something that i can feel some acceleration, something im actually alittle afraid of even. That's what I loved with the rally car. It doesn't need to be the most agile thing in tight corners, and it doesn't need to be exceptionally capable on big consequence gravity. Because that's not the type of riding I enjoy. For me I like most natural terrain, single track trail riding. Trees wizzing past, rocks, roots, and chunks and the odd jump/drop to get through, without being too rocky, rooty or chunky. I definetly don't want to ride a manicured bike park, jump park type venue. And too much slow tech, chunk decent or vert lipped jumps doesn't really interest me. But I totoally understand how that type of riding would appeal to others, and i would never try and restrict someone from doing what they love, because it isnt what i love.

There should be all sorts of bikes, catering for all types of riders, and all subsets of terrain/trail/use. That's why people often have (had) more than one regular mountain bike. A little bit harder to have multiple emtbs because of the finacial impact.

You will not improve your cardio riding something that requires little rider input!

Don't think that just because a bike has a more powerfull motor that it doesn't require rider input. That a bit of misconception with more powerfull than standard mtbs, and I can see how people can make that assumption if they haven't ever experienced it. Your not grinding away on a treadmill to get up hill quite the same as a regular eMTB or even a MTB unless battery is a concern (which it often is when your juggling high instantaneous output, vs having a decent length ride). But you still need to work the bike to ride it. And you sure as hell feel it after a session.

 

[Zero cool]

I personally think that the UK/EU 15.5mph/25kph limit is one of the main reasons that e-bikes are so widely accepted over here compared to place like the US where the limit is 20mph/32.1kph which is pretty damn fast to be passing walkers/slower riders on a trail.

That and our American cousins like to throw their toys out of the pram at the drop of a (cowboy) hat.

If we lobby and change the rules for the cut off we’ll end up like the yanks with lots of places banning w-bikes on their trails. I expect the Forestry Commission would be first in line to ban 20mph e-bikes (and rightly so) and that closes nearly all the UK trail centres to e-bikes which would be a million times worse than having to put more effort in to exceed 15.5mph.

@Astro66 - don’t ride e-bikes on the road then. I have tried with mine and it was just annoying having the motor cut in and out at 15.5mph, the solution was to stop riding my Decoy on the road and get the road bike out that will happily hit 25-30mph on the flat if I put the effort in.