Eurobike 2025: The DJI Flood Begins

[steve_sordy]

.......................

................., but Shimano seem to have given up on e-bikes these days sadly. I’d love to think they’ve got something in the wings.

I was thinking the same thing only a few days ago.
My opinion is that Shimano are not great innovators, but they are really good at developing and improving upon the ideas of others. With reference to the view that maybe Shimano have given up on e-bikes these days.........Maybe they were working on something better than Bosch, until DJI came along: then it's back to the drawing board!

 

[Ou812]

I was thinking the same thing only a few days ago.
My opinion is that Shimano are not great innovators, but they are really good at developing and improving upon the ideas of others. With reference to the view that maybe Shimano have given up on e-bikes these days.........Maybe they were working on something better than Bosch, until DJI came along: then it's back to the drawing board!

There’s a new Shimano motor coming, my mate told me about months ago then they hinted at it on EMBN a few days ago. The real question is what brand is going to use it? Most brands that were using Shimano motors dropped them for Bosch, I can’t foresee somebody like Yeti that just released the LTe making a change anytime soon.

 

[steve_sordy]

There’s a new Shimano motor coming, my mate told me about months ago then they hinted at it on EMBN a few days ago. The real question is what brand is going to use it? Most brands that were using Shimano motors dropped them for Bosch, I can’t foresee somebody like Yeti that just released the LTe making a change anytime soon.

Maybe not the big brands, but Shimano's strength has always been their ability to leverage their entire brand portfolio (brakes, transmission, wheelsets, supply chain simplicity, etc). This enable Shimano to make offers to smaller bike makers that other motor suppliers cannot. These offers could be for example, smaller order sizes, and/or expertise.

I have not seen the rumours, but even with the larger brands, it will depend upon what Shimano pull out of the hat. If they can outdo DJI, then who knows?

 

[Bogdan_CH]

It's lighter and more powerful. Thus power to weight ratio is better. Lets do the maths using your figures.

750watts at 6.8kg = 110 watts per kg.

1000watts at 6.26kg = 160 watts per kg

(110 - 160 / 110) X 100 = 45% increase in power to weight performance.

It also delivers the power more smoothly with the encoder system built into the rear wheel.

If you are trying to convince people that a 45% motor system power to weight performance advantage, combined with a DC drive system that is being stabilised by an encoder system that is sampling every 50mm of forward movement, compared with every 2.2 metres in a Bosch system. If you are saying this is not a significant performance advantage. Then you are not really telling a very convincing story.

And where this superiority will provide the most advantage, is in technical climbs, where power to weight and traction control is most critical. Carrying less weight with more power and stability when climbing helps a lot. And this is what I experienced and witnessed in that race.

BTW ...... What appears to be a resonable climbing test between Avinox, Bosch and Specialized has been done. On average on all different types of climbs. Amflow/Avinox is about 13% faster than Specialized. And 20% faster than Trek/Bosch.

If you take mass in consideration I'm wondering how you make your calculations with 75 kg rider and a 95 kg rider.

 

[Astro66]

If you take mass in consideration I'm wondering how you make your calculations with 75 kg rider and a 95 kg rider.

So this thread is about the DJI Avinox Motor System is being spec'd to many bikes at Eurobike. With MTB and EMTB transmission specifications. The difference between a high spec'd bike and a lower spec'd bike is normally subtle things like, for example, the weight of the cassette.

Now when spec-ing a XX Sram T-Type cassette, over a GX T-Type cassette. The differences are subtle, and if you compared this weight advantage to the total weight of the bike and rider. It's a marginal improvement. But manufacturers are still doing it, because it separates a Hi Spec bike from a Low Spec bike.

So with a motor and battery system. The factor that makes a system more attractive to manufactuers and thus buyers, is the spec of that motor and battery system. So a system that offers a 45% improvement in power to weight ratio, is obviously going to be a far more attractive spec, to add to a high end bike. Hence confirming the title of the thread. Which is DJI Avinox Motor Systems is being spec'ed in so many bikes at Eurobike.

Now as shown in the test video I posted. This higher DJI Avinox spec motor system, is leading to a 20% climbing advantage to the Trek\Bosch motor system. And this was averaged over 3 differently weighted rider. So the better spec is creating a significant improvement. This justifies that this higher spec does make a significant difference, and is why Avinox is being spec'd.

This leads us back to your original comment, that riders won't notice the difference of weight. Whilst for some riders this may be true. Any rider will notice a 20% climbing performance improvement. Which was my whole original point, that it's not just the weight that makes it better. It's the 45% improvement over Bosch, in power to weight ratio, leading to the 20% improvement in climbing performance of the entire bike package.

 

[Highland Wheels]

There’s a new Shimano motor coming, my mate told me about months ago then they hinted at it on EMBN a few days ago. The real question is what brand is going to use it? Most brands that were using Shimano motors dropped them for Bosch, I can’t foresee somebody like Yeti that just released the LTe making a change anytime soon.

Shimano is dead as a motor supplier now unless it comes out with something super light/lots of power and torque with smaller and lighter battery's that have large capacity.

 

[Rando_12345]

Just found out a shop within walking distance of me opened that sells Amflow and Crussis bikes, will have to go check them out. Not at all sure what the story is with the rumoured motors and battery upgrades, with respect to many of these brands seem to be delaying their deliveries until the rumoured update.

I see in the other thread Rob has a veloduro rogue on test. If only there was a knowledgeable content creator with all this knowledge who could do a podcast to give his unfiltered advice on all these new bikes @Rob Rides EMTB

 

[Astro66]

If only there was a knowledgeable content creator with all this knowledge who could do a podcast to give his unfiltered advice on all these new bikes

I do miss the podcasts with Will and the other guy.

 

[Suns_PSD]

It's lighter and more powerful. Thus power to weight ratio is better. Lets do the maths using your figures.

750watts at 6.8kg = 110 watts per kg.

1000watts at 6.26kg = 160 watts per kg

(110 - 160 / 110) X 100 = 45% increase in power to weight performance.

It also delivers the power more smoothly with the encoder system built into the rear wheel.

If you are trying to convince people that a 45% motor system power to weight performance advantage, combined with a DC drive system that is being stabilised by an encoder system that is sampling every 50mm of forward movement, compared with every 2.2 metres in a Bosch system. If you are saying this is not a significant performance advantage. Then you are not really telling a very convincing story.

And where this superiority will provide the most advantage, is in technical climbs, where power to weight and traction control is most critical. Carrying less weight with more power and stability when climbing helps a lot. And this is what I experienced and witnessed in that race.

BTW ...... What appears to be a resonable climbing test between Avinox, Bosch and Specialized has been done. On average on all different types of climbs. Amflow/Avinox is about 13% faster than Specialized. And 20% faster than Trek/Bosch.

The Bosch is 10-20% more efficienct once these motors are normalized for the same power, therefore a 600w Bosch battery is equivalent to an imaginary 660-720w Avinox battery. There are tests that have shown this, several in fact. So in a 'meters climbed per KG' it would seem the Bosch is technically 'lighter'.
The Avinox needs a bash guard where-as the Bosch naturally provides protection. The E13 bash guard weighs 265 grams.
The Bosch has internal sensors that sample 1000s of times per rotation, which is why you can press your foot on the pedal of a Bosch with no movement and the torque alone will have you accelerate away. Where-as the Avinox requires cadence to initiate, so you have to spin the cranks to get going. The valve stem sensor that the Bosch uses is just for max speed limiting.
The DJI motors pedaled well when shut off, and rattled like crazy. The Avinox motors are like pedaling through mollasses when shut off as the gear lash was tightened, so now they don't rattle. This also likley reduces efficiency further. The Bosch uses a freewheel that disengages so no noise and very easy motor off pedaling.
Multiple people have reported that swapping the long 800w Avinox battery for a 600w dramatically improves handling. So yes, it looks good but is in fact a performance negative.
You may or may not care about geo-politics, 1st world living standards, etc. But one is a Chinese company and one is European. I buy from both regions personally but really try and support American & European manufacturing when possible.
The changes to the Bosch CX-R motor are 3 things: !) Ti shafts which saves 150 grams, 2) Ceramic bearings, 3) and they allow a more aggressive 'Race' tune. It's not correct when the magnesium case is listed for the CX-R, as all Gen5s have that, although the CX-R is a different color. I did order a frameset (Antidote) with the CX-R. It's my opinion that the CX-R should be even more efficienct due to the bearing upgrade as that's what high quality ceramic bearings do. Personally I like doing more with less. I do think that Bosch should make the CX-R the standard motor. But it seems that most people are blown away by power and slim looks and this extra expenditure from Bosch probably would not move the needle.

Where the Avinox is ahead is: 1) Aesthetics, 2) absolute power beyond the Class 1 standard. If these are priorities for you, the Avinox is the superior unit. Otherwise, I choose the Bosch as I think it's a better motor for the reasons listed above.

If my Antidote deal fell through for some reason, I'd either go with the Regulator CX, the Rogue (with an Avinox) or very possibly the new Trek Fuel EXE with the HP60 & 580wh battery. All would be amazing in their own way.

 

[ZR1]

The Bosch has internal sensors that sample 1000s of times per rotation, which is why you can press your foot on the pedal of a Bosch with no movement and the torque alone will have you accelerate away. Where-as the Avinox requires cadence to initiate, so you have to spin the cranks to get going. The valve stem sensor that the Bosch uses is just for max speed limiting.

I'd say this is factually incorrect. If you ever have a chance to ride an avinox you can switch to one of the screens with torque, you can hold the brake and push down on the pedal and it will tell you how much torque you are applying.

I don't know the algorithm or sampling rate it uses but the avinox is the only motor I can leave in turbo and still descend without worrying it will randomly chuck a load of power or ovverun at me . e.g. when dropping a pedal going around a corner, I've found it the most intuitive.

Have you rode an avinox?

 

[sethimus]

@Suns_PSD has now shown several times that he lacks understanding of key technologies, be it his solid state dream batteries that are just around the corner (but don't exist in real life) or his crude understanding of motors and their perceived "efficiencies" that don't correlate with real world measurements (velomotion.net). take his words with a grain of salt...

 

[Suns_PSD]

I'd say this is factually incorrect. If you ever have a chance to ride an avinox you can switch to one of the screens with torque, you can hold the brake and push down on the pedal and it will tell you how much torque you are applying.

I don't know the algorithm or sampling rate it uses but the avinox is the only motor I can leave in turbo and still descend without worrying it will randomly chuck a load of power or ovverun at me . e.g. when dropping a pedal going around a corner, I've found it the most intuitive.

Have you rode an avinox?

I've actually never even seen an Avinox in person. You only honed in on one of like 9 seperate points that I made. Does that mean my other points you agree with? I just corrected someone that claimed the speed sensor was the 'encoder' sensor on the Bosch. It's not, it's a max speed sensor. I'd say that the power delivery preference is split about 50/ 50 between the Avinox vs. Bosch when looking at most online reviewers/ influencers. Some prefer the Bosch, others the Avinox. Must be pretty close. But at least one reviewer has stated that on uphills, the Avinox requires the cranks to spin before the motor adds power, where-as the Bosch gently motors off just like a bike once pedal pressure is applied. So the screen reading a torque input on the Avinox, isn't the same as the bike actually reacting to the torque.

But really, my response was mostly in regards to the weight differential between the motor systems claimed by the poster that I had quoted. It's mostly an imaginary weight difference when one consideres the proven efficiency difference & the need to add a bash guard to the Avinox. The reduced weight of the CXR, while nice, is hard to obtain in the real world because the motor itself is rare. (In the USA, the CXR is probably less rare than the Avinox however, at this time)

It's clear that many e-bikers, get really stoked about the looks and power of the Avinox and that's enough for them to claim absolute superiority over the Bosch. So I just pointed out that it's not the 'slam dunk' that some people indicate as there are other points and features worth considering.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Suns_PSD]

@Suns_PSD has now shown several times that he lacks understanding of key technologies, be it his solid state dream batteries that are just around the corner (but don't exist in real life) or his crude understanding of motors and their perceived "efficiencies" that don't correlate with real world measurements (velomotion.net). take his words with a grain of salt...

Both motor systems use identical battery cell technology, so this seems pretty irrelevant at this junction; and just feels more like a personal attack because you don't like your favorite motor system's dominance being questioned.

 

[ZR1]

I've actually never even seen an Avinox in person. You only honed in on one of like 9 seperate points that I made. Does that mean my other points you agree with?

No, just don't want to go over old ground of the legitimacy of efficency tests.

I think you'd be in a better position if you were able to ride both systems, only so much you can glean from spreadsheets and youtubers opinions.

 

[ZR1]

Both motor systems use identical battery cell technology, so this seems pretty irrelevant at this junction; and just feels more like a personal attack because you don't like your favorite motor system's dominance being questioned.

surely Bosch has the dominance? Plenty of good motors systems aren't getting any traction. Avinox has had to bring in some pretty hefty power increases/integration and weight improvements to get a look in

 

[Fangs2k]

I’ve not had much time on an Avinox e-bike, but it definitely has torque sensing and isn’t just a cadence based system.

Like the Bosch bikes, it’s also enormously customisable and can be tailored to your preferred riding style with things like overrun and other things.

One thing I always read that is incorrect is that the wheel speed sensor does the ‘traction control’ on Bosch bikes, when it doesn’t, it’s just a wheel speed sensor. @Suns_PSD is right about that. Torque sensors detect when a pedal stroke becomes ‘unloaded’ and it cuts power, otherwise you’d see wheel spin for a whole wheel revolution which I’ve never experienced. The Avinox does similar, as far as I can tell.

However both motor systems do it, it works anyway.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

I don't know the algorithm or sampling rate it uses but the avinox is the only motor I can leave in turbo and still descend without worrying it will randomly chuck a load of power or ovverun at me . e.g. when dropping a pedal going around a corner, I've found it the most intuitive.

Have you rode an avinox?

I disagree on this :


Link starts at 19:25 where they explain exactly this

 

[Astro66]

there are other points and features worth considering.

There are other points. But as soon as you raise points that are completely debunked by every person who has ridden an Avinox System, like your Cadence and Torque claims. Then it devalues your entire comment.

So I recommend to you. Put an Avinox Motor or a Bosch Motor in their most powerful mode. Put pressure on the pedals, and both will take off like a scalded cat. Because both use a Torque Sensor to transfer input torque to output torque. The only difference is the transfer ratio. And Avinox allow you to configure a larger ratio. So for the same torque in, you can configure more torque out. These are the facts.

Regarding Traction Control. I have no interest in getting into a Process Control discussion. I do it for a living and do not want to spend my fun time doing it. But I will say this.

With a process control loop, you can control the output one of three ways :

1) Measure the input variable, and control the output accordingly. Called Feed Forward Control.
2) Measure the output feedback, and control the output accordingly. Called Feedback Contol.
3) Measure both the input and output and use both Feed Forward and Feedback Control. Obviously this system gives the best result.

The Bosch and Avinox both measure the input power using Torque Sensors, so thus both regulate output power dependant on the Torque Input of the rider. But only the Avinox has an Output speed sensor with enough sensitivity to provide Feedback Control.

Using a sensor that only gives feedback after a full 2.2 metres of forward movement will cause your process controller to ocillate wildly in a low traction situation. So it clearly cannot be used to control your process loop. So it's used for indication and speed limit control only.

Anyway. That's enough about that. If you wish to read more detail, I suggest googling "feedback vs feedforward control".

Happy reading.

 

[sethimus]

I disagree on this :


Link starts at 19:25 where they explain exactly this

your point? you can set it up however you want?