Ebike Optimized Forks Or Not

[Al Boneta]

I still think that the MRP Bartlett, which is basically a dual crown Enduro fork in 170, 180, and 190mm travel options, would be a great choice for a heavy hitting EMTB.

I know Mojo Rising are working on a dual crown conversion kit for the Fox 36 too

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The last Manitou fork I ran was the Manitou Sherman. I have ridden this new fork the Manitou Mezzer. It is the stiffest single crown fork I have ever felt. I don’t care for double crown forks when it gets slow and technical with switchbacks. I feel like I am steering an aircraft carrier.

 

[Tamas]

I repeated the same thing because it already logically explains it.

You’re changing the weight of the rider on two different bikes to compensate in order to the achieve the same “total weight” that you’re basing your understanding on in order to justify that there’s no difference - when you made two distinct variables different to begin with lol

Added weight doesn’t offset base weight. Subtracting does.

If you go with the same rider the total weight with the ebike is 15lbs heavier that’s not really rocket science, but you claimed that if the total weight is the same it’s still not the same and I was just waiting for a logical explanation why?
The sprung/unsprung weight is the same in both combinations so I still think that there is no difference. Yes, the rider’s legs act like a suspension but because of the variability between riders it cannot be determined exactly so the manufacturers go with total weight.
If the total weight doesn’t exceed the manufacturer specifications it doesn’t matter if the fork is ebike specific or not.
Just a question - I’m 80kg and my friend is 108kg. With my Meta Power my total is 103kg and my friend is 122kg with his regular trail bike. Which one of us needs ‘ebike specific’ fork? Applying your ‘logic’, I need it because my bike is heavier than his bike even he’s 42lbs heavier in total.

 

[outerlimits]

My Levo came fitted with Reba’s, and they are 32mm ?
I destroyed them, and now have some Yari’s that I plan to do some mods to.

 

[raine]

If you go with the same rider the total weight with the ebike is 15lbs heavier that’s not really rocket science, but you claimed that if the total weight is the same it’s still not the same and I was just waiting for a logical explanation why?
The sprung/unsprung weight is the same in both combinations so I still think that there is no difference. Yes, the rider’s legs act like a suspension but because of the variability between riders it cannot be determined exactly so the manufacturers go with total weight.
If the total weight doesn’t exceed the manufacturer specifications it doesn’t matter if the fork is ebike specific or not.
Just a question - I’m 80kg and my friend is 108kg. With my Meta Power my total is 103kg and my friend is 122kg with his regular trail bike. Which one of us needs ‘ebike specific’ fork? Applying your ‘logic’, I need it because my bike is heavier than his bike even he’s 42lbs heavier in total.

-1.Okay just being honest here (not picking a fight or whatever, this is a good discussion) but you (and some others) are not understanding anything I've been explaining, because you keep turning back to "total weight" (or sprung weight) as your reference point.

2. The "rider's legs act as suspension" has NOTHING to do with weight capacity because of simple physics - meaning Newton's Law #3.

3. I think I've explained it fairly well numerous times already. If someone without the preconceived idea that "heavy rider + light bike = light rider + heavy bike" were to read everything I've typed, they would get it.

But hey - you can think whatever you want to think. I'm okay with it. Can't say I didn't try to explain it to you. And to show that all is good (we're all e-bike friends here), I'll still answer your last question. If you understand my answer correctly, then you understand what I've explained this whole time:

Just a question - I’m 80kg and my friend is 108kg. With my Meta Power my total is 103kg and my friend is 122kg with his regular trail bike. Which one of us needs ‘ebike specific’ fork?

Neither you nor your friend needs the E-Bike specific fork....
... but your heavier E-bike might.

Get it?

 

[Macone]

geez guys, so many variables here. ride a bike, if the fork does not meet your expectation or requirement, fit a better/burlier/thicker/more expensive(e.t.c.) fork. otherwise stick with the original. otherwise I want to invest in a fork company that can take financial advantage of the guys that think money is always the answer to making them "better". Just ride and get better. If a particular component is not up to your standard, buy a better one (please let me clip the ticket)

 

[Pdoz]

-

2. The "rider's legs act as suspension" has NOTHING to do with weight capacity because of simple physics - meaning Newton's Law #3.


Get it?

Ummm...suspension is a lot more than just a spring..... and so are our legs

 

[raine]

Ummm...suspension is a lot more than just a spring..... and so are our legs

Did you actually read that within context, or are you just picking one sentence and making a comment about it? LOL

 

[Gary]

semantics.

Semantics?

Yeah. Ok. let's go there

My point was, an e-bike is heavier and gets more forces applied to it than a comparable non-e-bike.

for the same weight rider. generally an enduro race bike will get higher forces applied to it.
ie the average to expert Enduro racer is far fitter and a more rad rider than the average to expert Emtbist.

I know a lot of guys with enduro race bikes. All (except me) regularly race them. A few still also race DH. When riding together they very rarely hold back. Other than myself I haven't seen a single Emtb out on the trails ridden to even vaguely the same level. (not saying they aren't. I'm saying it's rare)

If you genuinely think you're rad enough to actually need it by all means buy a beefed yup chassis E-fork. You're probably not though.

 

[Pdoz]

Did you actually read that within context, or are you just picking one sentence and making a comment about it? LOL

Yes, and did you read MY original comment about our legs acting as suspension in context, or are you just obsessed with your own argument?

 

[Swissrob]

There really is very little reason for most folk on E bikes to need a single heavier part than an Enduro race bike would have.[/QUOTE]

This is where you finally are wrong Gary, there are a lot of reasons why emtbs need stronger, betterer parts.
Generally the riders are older, fatter and richer.
Component upgrades are a good way of overcoming poor technique and fitness.
If it costs a shedload it must be good.
It is something to talk about.
They look nice.
And we are talking about reasons not logic!



I will see myself to the door..............................

 

[Gary]

Watch it's not sprung and smacks you in the ass

I didn't say anything about "strongerer or betterer" bud.

.

 

[raine]

Semantics?

Yeah. Ok. let's go there

for the same weight rider. generally an enduro race bike will get higher forces applied to it.
ie the average to expert Enduro racer is far fitter and a more rad rider than the average to expert Emtbist.

I know a lot of guys with enduro race bikes. All (except me) regularly race them. A few still also race DH. When riding together they very rarely hold back. Other than myself I haven't seen a single Emtb out on the trails ridden to even vaguely the same level. (not saying they aren't. I'm saying it's rare)

If you genuinely think you're rad enough to actually need it by all means buy a beefed yup chassis E-fork. You're probably not though.

Haha "Other than myself"...

See... this is why this discussion has reached a point where it will go nowhere. You, Pdoz, even Swissrob's last sarcastic comment (lol) are all going along the same lines as Tamas:
you're all focusing on the rider, not the machine.

Or in your case, if someone is as "rad enough" as you apparently are.

But I've been focusing on the machine this whole time. My very first reply to the OP's question was about the machine. I never said I needed beefed up chassis e-forks.

Yes, and did you read MY original comment about our legs acting as suspension in context, or are you just obsessed with your own argument?

Not obsessed at all, pal. I can stop here. Enjoy your weekend

 

[TMS]

If you are arguing is it total weight or just bike weight that demands stronger parts. Here is simple example. Bike with no suspension. You drive over a rock and bike jumps. Because the bike has no suspension, bike weight affects directly the forces that the frame has to handle. Biker always flex (don't change from horizontal direction as much as the bike). And heavier the bike, more stronger it has to be. It's not about total weight.

 

[khorn]

Take a look at this Pinkbike test, the only parts that actually do not flex is the the inner tubes on the forks.......


This is just another EMTB gimmick!

Karsten

 

[TMS]

Durability is not calculated how much abuse bike can take at one shot. Parts has to handle the stress continuously. That's why even small weight increases in the bike have to keep in mind. As long as the parts only flex, that's good. But if the beyond the limit, that is not so good. If you want parts that are not flexing, you can triple the material and the bike weight at least. And we don't want that.

 

[outerlimits]

If a particular component is not up to your standard, buy a better one (please let me clip the ticket)

This is what I do,... if a component does not cut it then I just replace it with something that will. But you have to understand why a component has failed you to replace it with something that will perform for your riding.

If you genuinely think you're rad enough to actually need it by all means buy a beefed yup chassis E-fork. You're probably not though.

I see this all the time, they have all the latest and greatest components and still can’t ride to the components potential. A less expensive and lighter fork would do the job just as well for where and how they ride

 

[Dewi]

My 160E 36 feels a bit better on my VLT than my 170mm 36 on my Range but I don't know if it's because I ride my Range a bit more aggressively and it's a HSC/LSC damper, compared to my E fork which is a grip2 or if it is the added stiffness. Both bikes are set up with the same head angles, rim widths and tire types. My Range does run cushcores for racing though and slightly lower tyre pressure.
The difference is not enough for me to rush out and upgrade, maybe the damper???. Perhaps an Elite rider would care, I'm just a hack and it's good enough for me.

 

[Pdoz]

My 160E 36 feels a bit better on my VLT than my 170mm 36 on my Range but I don't know if it's because I ride my Range a bit more aggressively and it's a HSC/LSC damper, compared to my E fork which is a grip2 or if it is the added stiffness. Both bikes are set up with the same head angles, rim widths and tire types. My Range does run cushcores for racing though and slightly lower tyre pressure.
The difference is not enough for me to rush out and upgrade, maybe the damper???. Perhaps an Elite rider would care, I'm just a hack and it's good enough for me.

Have you ever tried swapping them? ( and weighing them? )

I'd be fascinated to know if the extra thick ebike forks feel better, or if it's just the heavier bike contributing ?

 

[Dewi]

Have you ever tried swapping them? ( and weighing them? )

I'd be fascinated to know if the extra thick ebike forks feel better, or if it's just the heavier bike contributing ?

Quite a long steerer on my XL Range, VLT is short by comparison, not sure it would fit. Would be a good experiment though.
Also axle to crown and travels are different so back to back in same bike the same geometry would be difficult to achieve.
I was thinking of getting a grip2 damper for the Range, they are just too pricey.

 

[Pdoz]

Quite a long steerer on my XL Range, VLT is short by comparison, not sure it would fit. Would be a good experiment though.
Also axle to crown and travels are different so back to back in same bike the same geometry would be difficult to achieve.
I was thinking of getting a grip2 damper for the Range, they are just too pricey.

Couldn't you fit the range forks on the norco and see if it's crap?

 

[Dewi]

Couldn't you fit the range forks on the norco and see if it's crap?

Possibly, but to be honest I couldn't be arsed.
Both perform better than I do.

The grip2 factory was a noticable improvement over the grip stock on the VLT. Particularly on whoops and small bumps.

 

[Gary]

you're all focusing on the rider, not the machine.

With respect:
The "machine" is fucking pointless without the rider.

hope this helps

Disclaimer: Unless the bike is an Ironhorse Sunday

 

[raine]

With respect:
The "machine" is fucking pointless without the rider.

With respect:
Without the correctly equipped machine, the rider - no matter how "fucking rad" they are - will be walking.

Agree to disagree

 

[Gary]

if a component does not cut it then I just replace it with something that will. But you have to understand why a component has failed you to replace it with something that will perform for your riding.

 

[R120]

I was out in Surrey Hills recently and got chatting with a well known pro free rider, we are talking someone who has ridden Rampage etc etc. We got talking tech, and I was interested in why he rode a fairly boring bog standard bike. He rides a mid level model from his sponsor, with no factory level parts in sight - I asked why he chose that model when he had the pick of their range to ride, and his response was because its simple to set up, perfectly adequate, and half the MTB industry is marketing bullshit - he said ride round here and you'd think you need a top end Santa Cruz just to ride a blue run, go to Queenstown or Whistler and see kids laying it down big style on ten year old or beaten up second hand bikes.

He didn't say it with any malice, but he makes a good point, and it will always be the case that a good rider can make any half decent bike perform.

 

[raine]

LOL exactly

 

[outerlimits]

Ha This kid knows ....

 

[R120]

One thing I am wondering about, is if the EMTB Specific Fox 36 isn't just a Marzocchi Bomber Z1 with some bling on it - the Bomber is based off the fox, but has thicker stanchions, and 34 internals from what I know of it.

 

[tedturbine]

One thing I am wondering about, is if the EMTB Specific Fox 36 isn't just a Marzocchi Bomber Z1 with some bling on it - the Bomber is based off the fox, but has thicker stanchions, and 34 internals from what I know of it.

The marzocchi's *look* a bit different

"With uppers made from 6000 series alloy rather than the Fox’s 7000 series. "

"The 15mm quick release Boost axle is adequate but it feels cheap and reminds me of the old RockShox axle of five years ago, where you tighten the bolt by turning the QR against a collar that’s too soft to take the force. I upgraded to a Fox Kabolt, but it’s an aftermarket upgrade you shouldn’t have to make "

"I then went one step further and slid the fork into the monstrous Specialized Turbo Kenevo e-bike, a machine that weights 50lb, replacing the stock RockShox Lyrik RCT3 and pumping the Z1 to allow for the extra weight of the bike and get my sag right. It pretty much confirmed the Z1’s faults, the extra weight the e-bike carries exaggerates the usual fore and aft weight shift any bike experiences as you ride, and it really put pressure on the fork, overwhelming it on steep trails. "

Marzocchi Bomber Z1 review - MBR

So I would assume similar but different.
Explore 36e E-Bike Bike Forks | FOX

Bomber Z1 Red - Marzocchi MTB Suspension

 

[steve_sordy]

How does the fork "know" that it is attached to an ebike that weighs a bit more than a clockwork bike?
The fork will be designed to have a max (rider + bike) weight in mind from a stiffness and strength viewpoint to withstand static and the huge range of dynamic loading. What I'm struggling to identify is what physical or engineering laws state that a 120kg (bike +rider) combo will affect the design of the fork if the proportional split between bike and rider was a variable?