E8000 "bottom bracket" bearing play after 1400km

[Gary]

Thanks again. The spoke rotating seems to have calmed down considerably since threadlocking. I'd definitely switch to a magnet that attaches to two spokes if i found one. pretty sure Cateye or sigma used to use a magnet that went between two spokes years ago but i couldn't find anything when i searched that avenue.

 

[Gary]

Shimano UN72 bearings used to last about 10-15 years. Shimano knew this.
HTII lucky if they last one year. Shimano also know this.
I'm talking multi thousand mile years not "I have a nice bike and take it to a trail centre every second saturday morning and ride 11miles" years.

Lets hope they used common sense when choosing the E8000 BB bearings

 

[towzer]

Any progress asks a man with a vested interest.

Just done my post ride service and checks - and yup I now have 'wiggle' on the cranks.
(if you wiggle the rh crank(line it up with swing arm and then try to pull it away from swing arm) you feel movement and a slight knock and the movement is also felt on the lh crank. I've had a few bbs go and to me that is exactly what it feels like. Will do some further investigation, I'm *sure* that it didn't use to wiggle but I don't always check the cranks so hoping to try a new motor for comparison. Suspect after that it's dealer time. But if you have a new e8000 can you do a wiggle test and post back pls. Thanks.

 

[Kernow]

Any progress asks a man with a vested interest.

Just done my post ride service and checks - and yup I now have 'wiggle' on the cranks.
(if you wiggle the rh crank(line it up with swing arm and then try to pull it away from swing arm) you feel movement and a slight knock and the movement is also felt on the lh crank. I've had a few bbs go and to me that is exactly what it feels like. Will do some further investigation, I'm *sure* that it didn't use to wiggle but I don't always check the cranks so hoping to try a new motor for comparison. Suspect after that it's dealer time. But if you have a new e8000 can you do a wiggle test and post back pls. Thanks.

There is some lateral play if you push and pull the cranks , it feels like you pull against a short spring . That is normal

 

[Tamas]

There is some lateral play if you push and pull the cranks , it feels like you pull against a short spring . That is normal

Since I had this problem I'm checking all the bikes with Shimano E8000 (new ones, used ones) whenever I see one. So far all of them had some play (even my brand new engine) - not lateral in/out but up/down. So I guess it should be normal unless it becomes excessive.

 

[Gary]

Any progress asks a man with a vested interest.

If you mean me. Yes. Received the bike back on Wednesday with a brand new motor fitted. It has the lateral movement against the spring but no bearing play or creaks.

 

[towzer]

mmm - just been to a shop and tried a brand new motor - no movement or knocking noise when doing my pull/push test

just to help me understand - esp 'lateral' and 'spring'

If I put the palm of my hand on the end of the 'bb/crank (black star tightener bit) and push it straight 'into the bike' that moves the crank in a little bit and then it comes back(and it does feel sprung) - ? is that what you mean by lateral and spring.

I am putting the rh crank along the swingarm(so the rh pedal is as near rear wheel axle as possible) and then holding the pedal end of the rh crank and trying to pull the pedal end of the crank away from the swingarm(or push towards the swingarm) - the end of the crank is moving slightly away from/towards the swing arm and there is a knock from the engine and that movement can be seen on the end of the lh crank - that to me feels like the bearings are allowing the crank to 'wobble' and I don't believe they should as it's non circular motion

 

[Tamas]

Every motor that I tried without exception has some slight bearing play even the new ones. I would say it's around 2mm at the end of the crank arm. Until it doesn't give any noise or gets bigger I don't care about it. I still have over one year from the warranty and I'll get a replacement before it expires.
As for the lateral play neither of my motors had any.

 

[Gary]

If I put the palm of my hand on the end of the 'bb/crank (black star tightener bit) and push it straight 'into the bike' that moves the crank in a little bit and then it comes back(and it does feel sprung) - ? is that what you mean by lateral and spring.

Yes.

 

[Gary]

I am putting the rh crank along the swingarm(so the rh pedal is as near rear wheel axle as possible) and then holding the pedal end of the rh crank and trying to pull the pedal end of the crank away from the swingarm(or push towards the swingarm) - the end of the crank is moving slightly away from/towards the swing arm and there is a knock from the engine and that movement can be seen on the end of the lh crank - that to me feels like the bearings are allowing the crank to 'wobble' and I don't believe they should as it's non circular motion

I've now done 10 miles or so and hit a few jumps on my brand new motor and the cranks do indeed now have BB play as you've described above.

not great, eh?

I can see me going through quite a few motors at this rate.

 

[R120]

It’s a bit of a conundrum isn’t it - if you are riding the hell out iof an emtb, and as Gary mentioned either in this or the Vitus thread, you would expect to have the same wear and tare as you would on a normal bike - from past experience I have had B.B. go after about a year taking into account fairly heavy amount of riding in bad conditions/wet weather.

Problem on the ebike is that the B.B. is part of the motor.

 

[Gary]

I just want a quicker way of getting a new motor really. A month was taking the piss. although I did lose half a stone from not riding with a motor

swings n roundabouts

 

[Danijel]

I just want a quicker way of getting a new motor really. A month was taking the piss. although I did lose half a stone from not riding with a motor

swings n roundabouts

Hey Gary! Just a quick question.

I have a Focus Jam2 with the shimano motor and everytime i put pressure on the pedals i get a click/creak. Did you solve your problem by getting a new motor? That is really the last thing i want to do to be honest.

What did Shimano say about this issue?

 

[Danijel]

I am by the way not able to reproduce this sound with the chain off. Even when i stand on the pedals and press hard down.

 

[Gary]

I am by the way not able to reproduce this sound with the chain off. Even when i stand on the pedals and press hard down.

in that case it's unlikely to be your motor.
my money would be on your spider lockring (behind the crank arm) needing tightened

 

[Danijel]

in that case it's unlikely to be your motor.
my money would be on your spider lockring (behind the crank arm) needing tightened

Perfect! Thanks for your quick response!

I have almost all the tools to work on the bike except the one to tighten or remove the spider lockring. They are freakin expensive.

 

[Gary]

I used pipe grips (carefully) to tighten mine. it's a L/H thread BTW.

 

[Tamas]

Perfect! Thanks for your quick response!

I have almost all the tools to work on the bike except the one to tighten or remove the spider lockring. They are freakin expensive.

I know it's an 'investment' but the 35€ is worth it for the TL-FC39 if you plan on doing regular maintenance on the bike.

 

[Gary]

Cheapest I've seen it here is £40. which is a joke. and No. IMO it's not worth it.
There's no maintenance to be done by a home mechanic on the E8000 motor that involves using that tool. The lockring on mine wasn't tight enough from new,

 

[Danijel]

The thing is that the FC39 alone is not enough. I would still need another adapter to tighten with a torque wrench or special wrench. So the FC39 by itself is useless. And i haven't come across a third party that sells something for a decent price. Cyclus makes one but that is almost a 100 euro.

 

[Tamas]

Honestly, whatever... ?
It is 35€ at bike-discount.de. Yes, you need a HTII tool which is pretty much the most common BB tool and can be had for under 10€ but usually every ‘home mechanic’ has it already. No, you don’t need a torque wrench, with the short handle of the BB tool you won’t over tighten it.
As for what does a home mechanic needs or doesn’t need depends on the home mechanic. If I remove the motor when replacing the shifter cable outer etc. removing the chainring assembly makes it a breeze.
I paid ~5000€ for the bike and I rather spend 35€ for the tool than messing around with a pipe grip... but hey, that’s just me...

 

[Kernow]

Kind of agree , we share the tool but you only need it if it comes loose which it doesn’t if it’s done up ok in the first place , or if you need to remove the motor to send it off for repair . There is nothing behind the ring to service , I took mine off to service , then took the circlip off behind to find there was nothing to service at all ,
However I can’t really think of a tool that’s going get it properly tight . It was very tight from new Pipe grips won’t undo for sure it will work loose again I think . Hammer and punch is the only butchers way I can think of

 

[Danijel]

The only reason for me to remove the chainring is to lube everything and tighten up per specification. But spending a total of 60 euro's for something that i will maybe use once or twice is a bit much so maybe i will check if i can borrow one from my LBS.

 

[Gary]

The chainring is a standard 104 BCD 4 bolt item bolted to the spider like any other. There's no need to remove the spider for cleaning or changing chainring.
I have changed my chainring for a larger sized Alu NW and regularly clean behind the spider without removal of anything.
I found most LBS didn't carry the tool. Tried a few of the bigger ones around Edinburgh, incl shops that sell Shimano equipped Ebikes with no luck. Worth a try though. Also might be worth asking on the forum if anyone near you has the tool

Pipe grips kept mine solid for 800miles until the motor broke (- completely unrelated)
It does need to be tight but needn't be mental tight.

 

[Danijel]

I have fixed the click guys! It was the rear suspension. I put the bike with the wheels against the wall and pushed against the frame a couple of times until the creaking stopped. After removing the cranks, headset, cassette, chainring, shock, seat and wheels this seemed tot eventually fixed it.

Weird but i am Happy! Thanks for your help and suggestions!

 

[Gary]

I put the bike with the wheels against the wall and pushed against the frame a couple of times until the creaking stopped.

Erm? that doesn't sound very "fixed"
Did you also do a full bolt check on the pivot bolts? shock mounting bolts and motor mounting bolts?
No idea what your drop outs are like but also check your rear mech hanger for any play/looseness, when those creak it often seems to sound like it's coming from a pivot or somewhere further forwards in the frame
A dropper post creak can also sound like it's coming from the BB or headset area as it resonates inside the hollow alu tubes. Carbon is even worse for locating creaks.
creaks can be a nightmare to find but with patience slowly isolating each part until you locate the source usually gets you there.

 

[Danijel]

Erm? that doesn't sound very "fixed"
Did you also do a full bolt check on the pivot bolts? shock mounting bolts and motor mounting bolts?
No idea what your drop outs are like but also check your rear mech hanger for any play/looseness, when those creak it often seems to sound like it's coming from a pivot or somewhere further forwards in the frame
A dropper post creak can also sound like it's coming from the BB or headset area as it resonates inside the hollow alu tubes. Carbon is even worse for locating creaks.
creaks can be a nightmare to find but with patience slowly isolating each part until you locate the source usually gets you there.

I know! It is a strange fix but somehow flexing the frame/rear triangle did the job.

I have literally done all the things you mentioned. This was except for removing the spider the last thing I could think off.

But I want to thank you for being so helpful. Appreciate it. I hope that this "fix" is permanent. If not I will definitely let you know.

 

[Gary]

hahah... can't wait

 

[Eckythump]

@Danijel check the pivot bearings where the rear triangle connect to the FOLD linkage. I had a dry bearing there which would tick at the same point of each pedal stroke.

 

[Kernow]

Thanks again. The spoke rotating seems to have calmed down considerably since threadlocking. I'd definitely switch to a magnet that attaches to two spokes if i found one. pretty sure Cateye or sigma used to use a magnet that went between two spokes years ago but i couldn't find anything when i searched that avenue.

Get a chunky tie wrap fix it tight to the next spoke , take the end back to the magnet drill a hole in it and pass the fixing screw for the magnet through the tie wrap tail .