• Warning!!

    Riding a tuned or deristricted EMTB is not a trivial offence and can have serious legal consequences. Also, many manufacturers can detect the use of a tuning device or deristricting method and may decline a repair under warranty if it was modified from the intended original specification. Deristricting EMTB's can also add increased loads for motors and batteries. Riding above the local law limit may reclassify the bike as a low-powered bike, requiring insurance, registration and a number plate.

    Be aware of your local country laws. Many laws prohibit use of modified EMTB's. It is your responsibility to check local laws. Ignoring it, has potential implications to trail access, and risk of prosecution in the event of an accident.

    UK Pedelec Law

    Worldwide Laws

    We advise members great caution. EMTB Forums accepts no liability for any content or advice given here. 


deristriction worry

Sapientiea

Active member
Jul 12, 2019
296
192
Netherlands
If you de restrict it beyond what it is designed to, then you should be a man OR woman and accept that you need to pay yourself. Pretty much stealing otherwise....
Not talking about changing the speed from 25 EU to 32 US km/h to be clear....
 

yorkshire89

E*POWAH Master
Sep 30, 2020
468
660
North Yorkshire
If you de restrict it beyond what it is designed to...

You're missing the point, motors ARE designed to work beyond the cut off limit.

For the warranty side of things, you are using third party software to remove the cut off limit and trick the motor into not throwing out error codes (eg Bosch). It would be the same if you remapped a car unless it's manufacturer approved.

For whatever reason the law says it shouldn't be used past 15.5mph on a public road. I don't agree with it but it is what it is 🤷‍♂️
 

RustyMTB

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Jul 22, 2020
2,526
6,186
UK
Gary stirring the pot just for a change, stalking forums for the opportunity to stick the boot in, what a shrivelled existence that is. The answer I would guess is speed restrictions vary by country, so they build one motor to one specification beyond local limits for the purposes of egineering in a degree of resilience & restrict it via firmware to local requirements in order not to have to mess about with multiple versions. Nor sure the car analogy works, as manufacturers will definitely boot out warranty claims if they discover modifications which on an E bike, you definitely have to add to get more out of one.
 

Planemo

E*POWAH Elite
Mar 12, 2021
578
676
Essex UK
You're missing the point, motors ARE designed to work beyond the cut off limit.

And you sir are getting exactly what I was saying.

For the warranty side of things, you are using third party software to remove the cut off limit and trick the motor into not throwing out error codes (eg Bosch). It would be the same if you remapped a car unless it's manufacturer approved.

....and goes on to give a great answer (with an example) as to why Bosch don't like it. Makes sense. Thanks.

So all we need is an official Bosch derestriction service. I'm surprised they don't offer it for 'off-road use only'. It wouldn't be the first product to have that moniker.
 

MrSimmo

E*POWAH Elite
Apr 24, 2020
1,049
987
The Trail.
OK, so if the system itself is built to and capable of running in an unrestricted format, and we know that derestriction in itself isn't illegal then why is there even any conversation about what a rider has been doing when it comes to warranties?

It's a good question. I don't know the details of the warranty process in depth but I know Bosch (as with a lot of German engineering organisations) go well over the top when it comes to customer service processes; so I'd think they've had numerous committees to craft the warranty process (along with lots of people with differing agendas and ideas all inputting) which has resulted in an overly complex warranty process. I suspect there would have been numerous health and safety bods involved...

So what would be quite simple - i.e.
Is the motor physically damaged outside?
Does the software flag anything up?

Now looks like:
Is a3m screw 19 turned approximately 30 degrees to the left?
Are there cracks in the sheathing?
What percentage of motor has dirt ingress?
Has there been recorded pedal velocities of over 90rpm for a consistent period?
etc

we know that derestriction in itself isn't illegal

I think it might be illegal in certain countries. As Bosch supply motors to many many countries/states, it's easier for them as an engineered product to slap out one standard.

Similar to car petrol tolerances, they 'map' modern cars engines to be tolerant of crap fuel but in say the UK, the fuel quality is very high so you don't need that protection but you do in certain European countries. It's easier for them just to put one 'map' on instead of one per country, plus they need to take into account if someone takes the car into another country.


So all we need is an official Bosch derestriction service. I'm surprised they don't offer it for 'off-road use only'. It wouldn't be the first product to have that moniker.

Specialized actually were/are looked into this. Using a similar method that the Nissan GTR uses - GPS to determine you're on a closed track, then restrictions are temporarily removed. I don't know where they are with it at the moment but I know they were having issues determining what was classed as a safe place to remove the restrictions - reason being that on a race track you don't tend to have people wandering around but on mtb trails, you could have dog walkers etc.
 
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Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
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the internet
How about you actually read your warranty terms before typing utter drivel and accusing others of being condescending or stirring up trouble for simply replying with hard facts?

Cars are utterly irrelevant so please do everyone a favour and refrain from using them as an example.
 

MrSimmo

E*POWAH Elite
Apr 24, 2020
1,049
987
The Trail.
How about you actually read your warranty terms before typing utter drivel and accusing others of being condescending or stirring up trouble for simply replying with hard facts?

Cars are utterly irrelevant so please do everyone a favour and refrain from using them as an example.

Are you talking to me?
 

RustyMTB

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Jul 22, 2020
2,526
6,186
UK
It doesn't tbh, I had an AMG which had the speed-limit raised to 180mph by Mercedes AMG in the factory; but there was small print in the manual that said the warranty would be voided if I drove it over legal speed limits on public roads and over "regular tolerances" (whatever that means) on private tracks. The car was capable of >200mph but driving it over 70mph on a road would void the warranty.
Small print is small. Car warranties are often plagued with vague T&C's of this nature but they're vague for a reason, to give wiggle room to the manufacturer when your engine falls out. I ran Porsches for a while & one big thing in that world is over revs, usually from enthusiastic down changes. The ECU records them & if you then have some form of warranty issue, it becomes a handy get out of jail. I have also known Porsche decline warranty claims on for example, a corroded air con condenser because the owner had fitted non approved tyres. The game is rigged.
 

MrSimmo

E*POWAH Elite
Apr 24, 2020
1,049
987
The Trail.
Small print is small. Car warranties are often plagued with vague T&C's of this nature but they're vague for a reason, to give wiggle room to the manufacturer when your engine falls out. I ran Porsches for a while & one big thing in that world is over revs, usually from enthusiastic down changes. The ECU records them & if you then have some form of warranty issue, it becomes a handy get out of jail. I have also known Porsche decline warranty claims on for example, a corroded air con condenser because the owner had fitted non approved tyres. The game is rigged.

Its a good point 👍 I think that mentality could be making its way into the ebike world.

Edited my previous post to remove the bit about car warranties, it was wasn't as relevant as it could have been around ebike de-restriction.
 
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RustyIron

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
Jun 5, 2021
1,510
2,389
La Habra, California
I don't understand why so many are getting their panties in a bunch. First, your bike store can't tell if your bike was derestricted in the past. Although it's conceivable that a history of past configurations could be programmed into the firmware, it's not. If someone can provide a screenshot of a diagnostic tool showing otherwise, I'll gladly recant.

The other confusing part is that the tone of the conversation leaves me thinking there is an adversarial relationship between stores and riders. Are shops really the enemies of riders? Are bike mechanics really hell-bent on "catching" riders?
 

stiv674

E*POWAH Elite
Mar 4, 2019
777
600
Wiltshire
Why should bike shops 'help' customers by basically lying for them...

Most who derestrict will be breaking the law at some point, however daft the law might be.

I'm sure some people have access to private land but most will be riding on public land.

If you want to derestrict then fine, just deal with the potential consequences.
 

Planemo

E*POWAH Elite
Mar 12, 2021
578
676
Essex UK
How about you actually read your warranty terms before typing utter drivel and accusing others of being condescending or stirring up trouble for simply replying with hard facts?

You really are an obnoxious, toxic individual. I have seen your scathing replies towards others since I joined this forum and I wondered at what point your vitriolic diatribe would end up being directed my way.

And no, no one was moaning or indeed behaving like a toddler. It was simply a discussion around Bosch warranty proceedures. But once again you needed to get your anger filled fingers to work.

With that, I'm out. I won't have anyone speak to me like a mug, least of all by someone in their living room hacking away at their keyboard.
 

dschae1

Member
Jul 20, 2021
31
14
Texas
Because of your terms of warranty.
#NotRocketScience
I am the second owner, got lucky in July and found a Rail 7 (Bosch). I called Trek and confirmed that as a second owner, I do not have any warranty on the motor. If it fails, it will be up to me to pay for the replacement. Having said that, I think the derestriction should be OK for me,

I'm risking motor failure and recovery from 504 errors only. Honestly, I feel I'm risking motor failure any time I ride though as electronic parts are what they are (could go for years or fail tomorrow - aka Murphy's law? :cool: ) I do worry about the 504 error and would probably do the 90 minute crank drill technique to get past it. That 504 error issue has stopped me from getting a chip for months now actually. That and there is 3-4 brands of chips, so I don't know which one is best?
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,688
the internet
Yeah. No reason to worry at all if your motors already out or warranty. All motors eventually fail. Buying secondhand you simply have to take the hit if you need replacement or repair.
 

Rotwilder

Member
Apr 19, 2019
43
40
West Yorkshire
This information was passed onto me recently, although I’m way out of warranty and don’t need derestrictions as I have the Speed version fitted now👍Loving it! Info below, read the detection paragraph!:



NEWS BY ROTWILD

Our engine supplier Brose is providing a new update of its software with which, among other things, the function of the pushing aid is improved, damage to the belt is detected and consequential damage can be avoided. In addition, the update with revised algorithms increases the stability of the electronic system. A new display design can be set on the Brose Allround Display, and the options for customizing the motor support have been significantly improved.

The software update 7.4.1 has been available since April 1, 2021 and can be installed for the following Brose motors via the ROTWILD specialist dealer:

Drive S Alu, C97272-100

Drive T Alu, C91143-200

Drive S Mag, horizontal, E06855-200

Overview of changes to software version 7.4.1

Improved pushing aid: The new pushing aid no longer requires 1.5 turns of forward movement on the rear wheel, but provides full support as soon as it is actuated.

Error 29: The algorithm has been readjusted for improved system stability, so that the hard shutdown (abrupt system shutdown) in the case of error 29 is only active if an e-bike system component has a long communication breakdown. Any short-term communication interruptions no longer cause the system to shut down.

New manipulation detection: The new manipulation detection ensures that the drive detects when the spoke magnet has been attached to the crank and thus the rear wheel and crank are moving in a ratio of 1: 1 to each other. If this is the case, the drive switches off the assistance after 500 pedal turns. Error 47 becomes active and can be read out in the service tool.

Detection of a belt break: In the event of a belt break, the drive switches off immediately to prevent consequential damage to the mechanics. The error code 48 becomes active and can be read out in the service tool. If the bike is restarted, the error is deactivated again.
 

ian408

Member
Dec 1, 2020
19
5
Silicon Valley
will there be anyone to turn to when bike shops start checking for deristriction ? iv heard mechanics are being told to check for deristriction on every bike they work on iv used the badass box just wondering if theyl see that on diagnostics ?
Bosch make ECUs for cars and motorcycles. They are pretty good at identifying things to monitor to ensure their products are not abused or miss-used. I wouldn't be surprised if they upload statistics and serial numbers when the bike is connected to the computer for updates either and if they said a bike that was modified, you can bet they'd void the warranty.
 

Moderator

Moderator
Staff member
Subscriber
Jul 15, 2020
172
642
FORUM
Gentlemen, Ladies or otherwise.

We can all get frustrated with the way some of us write our replies. We all have lots to give and all have lots to learn - be that about bikes or forum communication.

Maybe everyone who's got a bit tense, frustrated, really f**ing p***ed off, or is just bored - can swiftly move on and put it behind you. Give each other a virtual benefit of the doubt. Drink a quick virtual beer together, admire some specs and pictures of some 2027 virtual de-restricted bike being ridden by a hot chick/bloke/chilly and let the thread continue without baiting or belittling.

Cheers !
 

Mabman

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Feb 28, 2018
1,048
1,735
Oregon USA
Screen Shot 2021-12-04 at 12.09.52 PM.png
 

Arc52

New Member
Apr 17, 2021
1
0
Cornwall
Gentlemen, Ladies or otherwise.

We can all get frustrated with the way some of us write our replies. We all have lots to give and all have lots to learn - be that about bikes or forum communication.

Maybe everyone who's got a bit tense, frustrated, really f**ing p***ed off, or is just bored - can swiftly move on and put it behind you. Give each other a virtual benefit of the doubt. Drink a quick virtual beer together, admire some specs and pictures of some 2027 virtual de-restricted bike being ridden by a hot chick/bloke/chilly and let the thread continue without baiting or belittling.

Cheers !
I prefer it the other way
 

dobbyhasfriends

🌹Old Bloke 🎸
Subscriber
Sep 19, 2019
3,208
4,568
Llandovery, Wales
reminds me of when they strangled learner 125 bikes in the 80's etc.
they made a cracking bike
government didnt like it
ruined bike with restriction
yoofs happily derestricted and much fun was had

point being that while it was illegal to ride a derestricted bike on you provisional license, it wouldnt invalidate the bikes warranty. why?
cos it was designed to not be restricted.
bit like ebikes.
without the 'invalidating the warranty' bit.
 

geehaw

Active member
Nov 17, 2019
107
86
Melbourne Australia
If a car within warranty blows a rod out the side whilst at top speed, the warranty isn't void because of the speed element.

No, but if you modify the ECU software to give you more turbo boost or change the timing curve or add a piggyback chip to do the same.warranty will be denied irrespective of the fact that the engine was probably designed ti take a bit more. Its no difference.
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,688
the internet
why is my rockshox shock squeaking? Only does it on compression.
That's the sound of it complaining because it's owner doesn't know how to look after it properly.

The fact of the matter is I'm just as plain spoken and to the point in real life. But one other thing about real life is that strangers tend not to talk quite so much absolute pish about subjects they have very little knowledge of.
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,688
the internet
Googling and downloading the service guide would have been far more efficient for us all.
 

Doomanic

🛠️Wrecker🛠️
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 21, 2018
8,476
9,948
UK
I love how friendly this place is, makes me feel all warm inside... :ROFLMAO:
 

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