Battery Life extension.

[KuRi]

In my visit today he said that it looked pretty normal, but I am also complaining that 3 times a red light showed on the ride control one indicating a battery problem. A restart sorted it out but I want a full check as soon as possible. Will let you know, but I am pretty sure they will say it is normal, go back home kid

One more thing for you to know: This is a Fathom E+2 Pro. I owned a Fathom E+2 (no pro version) for a couple of months and after 10 cycles it was at 100% all the time.

 

[Wernher]

Two charges off the bike, and the health has gone up one % to 96. Last two cycles were deep, taking the battery down to one indicator light and then charged off the bike. I'm gonna keep doing this (charge off the bike) and watch. Its mostly just a curiosity to me now. Where its charged either effects Giants health score, or it doesn't. Inquiring minds want to know.

Whether or not Giants health score is meaningful, or accurate, is another question all together.

I've charged on and off the bike. Found no difference. I also started checking my battery condition more frequently after I saw the posts here and found that my battery condition has gone down as low as 93% but then the next cycle went back to 98%. My opinion is that the information supplied by the app regarding battery condition should be taken with a pinch of salt. Just treat your battery as well as you can and enjoy the bike.

 

[Beekeeper]

I once had a totally dead car battery that as an experiment I tried to make new again.

I removed the acid, washed it out in water and then filled the cells with strong salt water as I knew this was a good electrolyte.

I attached a spot light to it and it actually worked!! For hours and hours!!! It was better than new and with salt water instead of sulphuric acid! I now thought I was going to be a millionaire.

Eventually it went flat so I decided to charge it. It was at this moment that I suddenly became very ill ?. The air turned green and I was on my knees coughing and spluttering. The battery was of course producing chlorine gas ?

I wish I paid more attention to my chemistry lessons at school.

 

[wepn]

Just treat your battery as well as you can and enjoy the bike.

Exactly right. For me, as well as I can is (voltages are for a 36V 10S pack):

Limit charge to 80% ~ 40V (39.7V to be exact) and only go to 100% - 42V as required.

If regularly limited to 80% SOC, then charge to 100% every month to balance the cells. Some quality BMS’s will balance as required & never need 100% charge unless range requires it.

Conversely don’t discharge below 20% SOC - 35V - unless necessary, never flat zero 0% and never keep a pack charged at 100%. Charge to say 50% after the ride and to 80% or 100% before the next one.

 

[DrStupid]

I've charged on and off the bike. Found no difference. I also started checking my battery condition more frequently after I saw the posts here and found that my battery condition has gone down as low as 93% but then the next cycle went back to 98%. My opinion is that the information supplied by the app regarding battery condition should be taken with a pinch of salt. Just treat your battery as well as you can and enjoy the bike.

Thanks for the info, that's a big change over (how many charges?) a few charge cycles. I cant remember mine moving more than 1% since I started watching it. Really, mine is quite a boring battery.

If we knew what metrics Giant was using to generate this health number, it might be a useful tool. As it stands right now, this number (battery health) is useless, in my book. The entire app is useless if anybody asked my opinion, but nobody at Giant ever does lol.

My guess is they are calculating resistence, and this is why some of us see a different number after charging on the bike, versus off the bike. This is just a guess, and probably a bad one at that.

I'm becoming frustrated with Giants general lack of technical information about their products. I cant find part numbers, service manuals, or spare parts online, and this is becoming a deal breaker for me. The Trance will likely be my last Giant.

 

[HikerDave]

Point taken. My battery is never even warm after a ride. Do you all experience a battery much warmer than ambient after a ride?

My Yamaha PW-SE battery wouldn’t charge after riding home with high assist against a headwind on a 110 plus degree day but it didn’t feel especially warm; I had to let it sit for about 20 minutes before it would take a charge. It’s good to know that the charging circuit protects the battery (and my house).

 

[DrStupid]

My Yamaha PW-SE battery wouldn’t charge after riding home with high assist against a headwind on a 110 plus degree day but it didn’t feel especially warm; I had to let it sit for about 20 minutes before it would take a charge. It’s good to know that the charging circuit protects the battery (and my house).

Yes, and apparently the internal temps are quite a bit higher than what we feel on the outside of the pack.

 

[KuRi]

Hi! I have just come back from the LBS. They have replaced the battery with a new unrealeased 600wh 2020 battery from Giant for free!!! Nah, just kidding (or dreaming)

They just check everything with the Giant checker (very similar to the one in the bluetooth app), that gives some additional info about total mileage (1200km in my case) and other things (not too many really) but it is not very complex. However everything has passed ok but I have insisted that 3 months, 17 cycles and 96% battery health looks like a bit low and that my battery won't survive for several years

They insisted that the battery is covered for 2 years, so no worries. If it goes below 80% they will replace it no question asked. I will keep checking the health on every charge.

Thanks all for your comments.
Cheers!

 

[MattyB]

They insisted that the battery is covered for 2 years, so no worries. If it goes below 80% they will replace it no question asked. I will keep checking the health on every charge.

The problem here is you don't know how this health rating is calculated for any of the brands, and they could change it at any point with a firmware update. Hopefully they aren't that cynical, but...

 

[Wernher]

Hi! I have just come back from the LBS. They have replaced the battery with a new unrealeased 600wh 2020 battery from Giant for free!!! Nah, just kidding (or dreaming)

They just check everything with the Giant checker (very similar to the one in the bluetooth app), that gives some additional info about total mileage (1200km in my case) and other things (not too many really) but it is not very complex. However everything has passed ok but I have insisted that 3 months, 17 cycles and 96% battery health looks like a bit low and that my battery won't survive for several years

They insisted that the battery is covered for 2 years, so no worries. If it goes below 80% they will replace it no question asked. I will keep checking the health on every charge.

Thanks all for your comments.
Cheers!

You almost kidded me into running to my LBS for a new 650Wh battery ??

 

[Wernher]

Thanks for the info, that's a big change over (how many charges?) a few charge cycles. I cant remember mine moving more than 1% since I started watching it. Really, mine is quite a boring battery.

If we knew what metrics Giant was using to generate this health number, it might be a useful tool. As it stands right now, this number (battery health) is useless, in my book. The entire app is useless if anybody asked my opinion, but nobody at Giant ever does lol.

My guess is they are calculating resistence, and this is why some of us see a different number after charging on the bike, versus off the bike. This is just a guess, and probably a bad one at that.

I'm becoming frustrated with Giants general lack of technical information about their products. I cant find part numbers, service manuals, or spare parts online, and this is becoming a deal breaker for me. The Trance will likely be my last Giant.

The app is for sure not Giant's best product. Then again it does its job as far as tuning is concerned and also in testing if there's anything wrong.

Most manufacturers have the same shortcomings apart from Shimano with their app and they also have a very good aftermarket app that makes it one of the best options out there.

Giant has a very reliable bike and Yamaha motor. If you watch the forums, Yamaha and Shimano's motors don't fail whereas Specialized has a nightmare with the Brose motors, both old and new Mag-S. I haven't heard of a single Levo owner who's motor hasn't been replaced and some up to 6 times. Although they do this without questions asked, I would rather have my Giant that's ready every time I want to ride it than a Levo, where I never know if my ride is going to be cancelled or aborted because of a motor failure. Giant's support is awesome and whatever goes wrong on my bike is immediately replaced or fixed and I couldn't be happier.

What information are you looking for? In most cases I've been able to get hold of the info I require on the bikes. Most of the parts that you would need to change would be aftermarket, so that's not a problem and the rest you can find out from your dealer if it's not readily available.

Looking elsewhere there are many bikes that are very capable and super nice to ride. The new Merida carbon bikes are an excellent option, but I honestly haven't seen anything out there today that will make me replace my Giant with it.

If I do decide to make a change it will be a Shimano equipped bike, but with Shimano only offering 500Wh batteries and most other including soon Giant offering 650 Wh batteries and more it is a possible deterrent. Then again Shimano's batteries are very light and it makes sense to pop one in the backpack for the few occasions that you are going to push beyond the limits of the battery and ride a much lighter bike the rest of the time with much better handling.

The Giant battery is probably one of the safest out there, but it comes at a price. It must be one of the heaviest as well. The new 650Wh battery that I heard rumours of will probably be the same weight with higher capacity and then you can also get the new external battery with another 500 Wh that you can mount on the water bottle mounting screws. That will make it big enough to go anywhere you might want to go.

The reliability and good support of the Giant and also the relative good value for the price makes the Giant an awesome buy and If I had to do it again, it will definitely be on my shortlist again.

 

[DrStupid]

I love the bike, dont get me wrong. My frustration is perhaps more industrywide and I'm venting ? with Gaint, becuase they are what I know.
My trance needed a new shifter cable after about 700 miles. This is regular maintenance that any owner should be able to do, and I think there should be some service papers? Its actually a pretty tough job, if you dont know what parts need to be removed, in what order. The battery lock maybe should have come out? and a special tool is needed to remove the chainring so you can access the screws to the skid plate without buggering them up...Idk, and neither does anybody else apparantly,. Giant either doesnt have sevice papers, or they are keeping them from the owners. I dont know what the facts are. But coming from motocross experience my entire life, I expect service papers. These bikes cost as much as most dirtbikes, yet every dirt bike I've ever owned had a service shop manual available. I cant find a decent shop manual for any of my ebikes, and its starting to get under my skin.

The fact that I cant find the part number for a derailleur hanger or battery charger is a problem for me too.

I dont think the dealer network as it currently stands, and the industry as a whole, will be able to handle the growth coming to the personal mobility market. I think traditional mobility companies i.e. automotive and motorcycles manufacturers, know this and are jumping in to fill the gap. If they're not careful, tradition bicycle manufactures may be pushed out. If bicycle manufacturers think we (new converters to bicycles from other forms of traditional transportation and powersports) will conform to "their way", I think they will be surprised by what actually happens. But I'm just one guy who actually knows very little about anything.

I want to buy my next ebike at the Yamaha motorcycle shop. I want to buy all the special tools and the service shop manual when I purchase it, so I can have all of this stuff when I need it. I want a recommend spare parts list, and the regular service intervals list. I want, I want, I want. I want an emtb that doesn't have a stupid derailleur.

I have toy helicopters, that have better survival rates in the woods than these stupid derailleurs!


Sorry. I got off topic. What were we talking about?

 

[Wernher]

I love the bike, dont get me wrong. My frustration is perhaps more industrywide and I'm venting ? with Gaint, becuase they are what I know.
My trance needed a new shifter cable after about 700 miles. This is regular maintenance that any owner should be able to do, and I think there should be some service papers? Its actually a pretty tough job, if you dont know what parts need to be removed, in what order. The battery lock maybe should have come out? and a special tool is needed to remove the chainring so you can access the screws to the skid plate without buggering them up...Idk, and neither does anybody else apparantly,. Giant either doesnt have sevice papers, or they are keeping them from the owners. I dont know what the facts are. But coming from motocross experience my entire life, I expect service papers. These bikes cost as much as most dirtbikes, yet every dirt bike I've ever owned had a service shop manual available. I cant find a decent shop manual for any of my ebikes, and its starting to get under my skin.

The fact that I cant find the part number for a derailleur hanger or battery charger is a problem for me too.

I dont think the dealer network as it currently stands, and the industry as a whole, will be able to handle the growth coming to the personal mobility market. I think traditional mobility companies i.e. automotive and motorcycles manufacturers, know this and are jumping in to fill the gap. If they're not careful, tradition bicycle manufactures may be pushed out. If bicycle manufacturers think we (new converters to bicycles from other forms of traditional transportation and powersports) will conform to "their way", I think they will be surprised by what actually happens. But I'm just one guy who actually knows very little about anything.

I want to buy my next ebike at the Yamaha motorcycle shop. I want to buy all the special tools and the service shop manual when I purchase it, so I can have all of this stuff when I need it. I want a recommend spare parts list, and the regular service intervals list. I want, I want, I want. I want an emtb that doesn't have a stupid derailleur.

I have toy helicopters, that have better survival rates in the woods than these stupid derailleurs!


Sorry. I got off topic. What were we talking about?

I get your frustration. Too many bikers have their bikes serviced rather than doing it themselves and the market doesn't cater for us. I think you'll probably do better with a direct sales company like Canyon as they actually rely on the customer to look after his own bike.

Check their forums and you'll get some idea. As far as hangers are concerned, go to your LBS and ask for the part. Get the part number and if you think it's too expensive look for it elsewhere. But rather get a tool and straighten it because I've never had to replace one, although I recently just bought one I need to fix my bike in a hurry out on the trail.

Derailleur hangers and gears are well documented by the manufacturers of the items and your shocks and forks are very weel documented on the Fox and SRAM sites etc.

A good place to start is your bike's spec sheet. Get the details of the various parts from there. The items that you will battle with is the Giant specific parts but most have numbers on that yo can search for and you will in any case not get those from third party manufacturers. They are very good with their warranty and by the time you need to start looking after yourself you will probably sorted ?

 

[DrStupid]

My battery health is back to 97%. I've been charging off the bike and cleaning the contacts with maxima suspension clean at first sign of crud.

Also. I started charging to 60% storage mode as my normal charge. My typical ride around the farm uses 30%. I get 5 [30% to 60%] charges counting as 1 battery cycle from the app.

I will balance charge to 100% once a month.


Found this very informative.

 

[Bilko]

This battery is really good still at 100%

 

[fs0ciet1]

This battery is really good still at 100%

View attachment 32425

how u recharge? every time at 100% and never under 20%?

 

[Fangs2k]

It’s interesting to find the same views, concerns and arguments raging on e-mtb forums as on electric car ones.

I own a fully electric car, my third now, and to be honest without a decent battery management system they wouldn’t really be practical transport. Having to worry about what charge to store at, what voltage to stop at in use and what levels to charge at when the battery is warm or cold would make owning one very tiresome.

I use the car everyday, so don’t really need to worry about leaving it charged at 100%, and i don’t pay too much attention to my bike either.

I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that we all know that our bike batteries have a chemistry that likes to be stored and used as close to 50% as possible, and that there seems to be a correlation between charge cycles and max capacity, but my plea is to take all the questions implied by that knowledge and reply ‘so what’.

Will it have any meaningful or practical impacts on how you enjoy your bike? Unless you’re using all of your battery every ride, will you really notice given all the other variables if it’s a few miles less after a couple of years?

Will the cost of a new battery or rebuild really be crippling in a few years time, which you might need anyway even if you’ve ‘babied’ your battery?

I‘m all in favour of looking after things, but your bike has a battery management system and its job is to worry about the battery so you don’t have to, and so that you can just get out and enjoy your bike.

I always charge my bike (and car) to 100% just before I need to use it, and on return I leave it at whatever percentage it was until I plan to use it again. The cars have done fine that way, I think the bikes will be ok as well. I just don’t see the point in turning a 500Wh battery into a 300Wh one via a 20-80% regime in the hope that it lasts longer.

 

[Bilko]

I don’t worry about the battery at all, I do half charge if not using it for long periods though. I tend to go out and do my ride and if I have lots of power left just up the assistance and go a little further. I rarely do less than 30 miles on my rides and have managed 59 on this battery. On my newer bike the battery health is around 94% with a lot less charges and even though both batteries are 500wh the newer one will go a lot further on a charge.

 

[funnel]

Yesterday I managed to discharge the battery to the point the RideControl didn't even turn on. The battery health went from 100% to 82% in an instant. I checked like an hour before I discharged it and was still 100% health.

Apparently whatever you do don't discharge it to zero if you want to preserve the health percentage.

I'm guessing the percentage indicates the amount of unbalance between the cells. So I hope it returns to a higher percentage after a few cycles.

 

[04fuxake]

As I understand it, one battery cycle is counted when the battery has gone from 100% to 0% and back. So if you ride 100% to 75% four times and recharge 25% after each ride, that counts as one cycle. Now, if the Giant app is reporting EACH charge as a cycle regardless of how much is charged, I'd say the app is just reporting how many times the battery has been plugged into a charger. Lazy app development, basically.

 

[funnel]

As I understand it, one battery cycle is counted when the battery has gone from 100% to 0% and back. So if you ride 100% to 75% four times and recharge 25% after each ride, that counts as one cycle. Now, if the Giant app is reporting EACH charge as a cycle regardless of how much is charged, I'd say the app is just reporting how many times the battery has been plugged into a charger. Lazy app development, basically.

It's not counting every time you plug. I don't know exactly how it counts, but when you charge it, if it's not totally discharged, it doesn't increase the counter.

 

[04fuxake]

It's not counting every time you plug. I don't know exactly how it counts, but when you charge it, if it's not totally discharged, it doesn't increase the counter.

Which would imply that it is in fact measuring charge cycles correctly (at least as I understand how charge cycles work).

 

[MattyB]

Yesterday I managed to discharge the battery to the point the RideControl didn't even turn on. The battery health went from 100% to 82% in an instant. I checked like an hour before I discharged it and was still 100% health.

Apparently whatever you do don't discharge it to zero if you want to preserve the health percentage.

I'm guessing the percentage indicates the amount of unbalance between the cells. So I hope it returns to a higher percentage after a few cycles.

As per my previous post further up the page, these "Battery health" percentages mean diddly squat unless a) we know exactly how they are calculated, and b) we are confident manufacturers will not to change that calculation over time so like for like comparison is possible. It seems likely cell voltages are one of the factors, but is it the only one? What about capacity of last accepted charge, # charge cycles, pack/cell IR, etc etc? For me the only real test of a packs health is it's comparative performance to when new in the real world, but unless you keep a studious log of lots of data every ride that is almost impossible to quantify.

 

[funnel]

As per my previous post further up the page, these "Battery health" percentages mean diddly squat unless a) we know exactly how they are calculated, and b) we are confident manufacturers will not to change that calculation over time so like for like comparison is possible. It seems likely cell voltages are one of the factors, but is it the only one? What about capacity of last accepted charge, # charge cycles, pack/cell IR, etc etc? For me the only real test of a packs health is it's comparative performance to when new in the real world, but unless you keep a studious log of lots of data every ride that is almost impossible to quantify.

Yes, internal resistance would make sense too. I'm just monitoring the charge I put back in with a household power meter. After it was fully discharged I put back in 504 Wh.

Yesterday after a ride of 30km the battery health raised back up to 92%, from 82%. Today I'm gonna make a similar distance ride and monitor what happens.

 

[iXi]

My wife's ebike is showing 1000ks ridden, 13 charge cycles and battery health 57%. I think the battery might be on the way out. She doesn't get many ks out of a ride lately

 

[KuRi]

That is bad news... not so many km and charge cycles for such a low health.
Is it under warranty?

 

[DrStupid]

My wife's ebike is showing 1000ks ridden, 13 charge cycles and battery health 57%. I think the battery might be on the way out. She doesn't get many ks out of a ride lately

Its either a defect, or something bad happened to that pack along the way. My trance19 has 4 X 1000km and still has 102% of capacity.

 

[Nicho]

Yes, internal resistance would make sense too. I'm just monitoring the charge I put back in with a household power meter. After it was fully discharged I put back in 504 Wh.

Yesterday after a ride of 30km the battery health raised back up to 92%, from 82%. Today I'm gonna make a similar distance ride and monitor what happens.

My battery showed 94% health after 8 full cycles a couple of weeks ago. I got my LBS to ask Giant about it in the summer when it appeared to be dropping fast and they said it was normal!

 

[MountainBoy]

They just check everything with the Giant checker (very similar to the one in the bluetooth app), that gives some additional info about total mileage (1200km in my case) and other things (not too many really) but it is not very complex. However everything has passed ok but I have insisted that 3 months, 17 cycles and 96% battery health looks like a bit low and that my battery won't survive for several years

Lithium ion batteries all experience degradation initially as the anode becomes plated with lithium ions. This reduces the batteries total capacity. However, the good news is that the plating process helps inhibit further plating. This means the degradation is fastest in the first few months of life and then tapers to a very slow rate. So losing 5% early in the battery's life is normal and the degradation is not linear so don't sweat it.

Modern li-ion batterie are amazing in term of how long they last when not abused. Just ride and enjoy!