Unanswered Are PLUS wheels just for show?

[pegnose]

For my new Jam2 I decided for the "L" size (my upper body is a little bit longer than average), but I took the Plus wheels because they looked a little bit smaller in diameter so that the bike in total would not get too large and too hard to handle. Does that make any sense? I am starting to question my decision because of the performance of the wheels. They likely are heavier (read a bit into tubeless) and with less PSI (only 35 max, 2.4 bar i.e.) you might get more friction anyways. One reason for going eMTB for me was being able to take longer tours.

So... are Plus wheels just for show? Did I make a bad decision? Is only having 35 PSI on the wheels actually a downside? And should I definitely not go beyond that?

 

[steve_sordy]

Plus tyres are not "for show", but they do not suit everyone. They are the bee's knees for some, but too big and heavy for others. You don't have to stay with them if you can't get on with them, you can go for narrower tyres (within reason). But first you have to give the plus tyres a fair chance.

The 35psi marked on the tyre is the manufacturer's recommended maximum tyre pressure, not their recommended pressure.

The pressure you use will depend upon your weight, what you ride and how you ride (ie how it feels to you). You could very easily drop to 17-20 psi or even less if you are a light rider. My recommendation is that you immediately drop to 20 front and 25 rear and then ride the bike. Then change the pressure up or down according to how the bike rides and how it feels to you. Look out for the tyre squirming on corners (too low), rims dinging on rock edges (too low), or a hard feel when going over rocks and roots (too hard). You will end up with the tyres at different pressures, mostly lower on the front. Watch this video from PInkBike's Tech Tuesday series on setting tyre pressure (it was a revelation for me when I first saw it).
Tech Tuesday - Find Your Tire Pressure Sweet Spot - Pinkbike

Edit: I am 92kg in my riding gear and I have 29 x 2.5" tyres. I have 17psi front and 20psi rear. The tyres are Maxxis High Roller II 3C WT Maxx Terra EXO TR, run tubeless with sealant. each one weighs 1016g plus about 100g of sealant.
The original tyres were Maxxis Rekon 29 x 2.6" 3C EXO Maxx Terra TR, each one weighed 890g plus a 240g tube. The grip was poor on both tyres and I never felt comfortable on them. The High Rollers however are brilliant!

 

[pegnose]

Thanks again, Steve!

EDIT: My rims are 40 mm, if I understand correctly ("AR 40"). I could probably go down to 2.6 from 2.8. For now I will not change anything. I have not updated the pressure so far, currently it feels it is more or less identical for front/read. I'll play around with it a bit and see what I like.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'm new to all of this - mountain bikes, electric mountain bikes, wheels, tyres .. everything .. so what I say shouldn't be taken too seriously because it's probably wrong .. though some of it might be right, or just interesting because of how wrong it is ! .. ..

I have 27.5+ . Started with Maxxis Ikons, tubed and from the bike shop these were at 3 bar (43psi). It felt like riding a bowling ball. So I lowered the pressure over, eventually to about 1.5 bar. 22 Psi. Which felt much better.

Swapped the tyres for DHF/DHRII combination as I wanted to try lower pressure and go tubeless - the Ikon's weren't tubeless rated so the LBS wouldn't do it. Unfortunately it came back still with tubes as they said they couldn't get tubeless to seal. Came back again at 3 bar (43psi) .. felt like a bowling ball again. So dropped the pressure to 1.5 (22Psi).

So the relevant part here to your question is the rolling resistance difference I felt. On a fast (for me) gravel descent,with the Ikon's I'd be on the brakes in various places to avoid underwear spoilage. With the DHR/DHF combination I lost so much speed from drag I didnt' need to brake at all.

So tyre type might also be an influential factor.

On the DHR/DHFII combination I eventually ended up at about 1.2 bar (17.5psi) . Which felt great, but as I improved and got faster it led to constant pinch flats.

The bike shop tried and failed again with tubeless so I did it myself and now find 1 bar to be nice for me (14.5 psi) . I don't find any more real world rolling resistance and the tyres don't feel squirmy (moving about) but bump absorbance is superb (Hardtail & bad rider who's depending on the bike to magically more than it should).

This morning I did a couple of tests just out of curiosity and ran 0.8 bar (11.5psi) and then 0.6 bar (8.7 psi).

Both of those felt squirmy on the descents, the 0.6 felt especially terrifying and was all over the place. Both felt like I was hitting the rim when I messed up and hit rocks hard. The interesting bit though was that with the 0.6 I finally took a KOM on a rocky, rooty climb I've been trying to get for ages but normally get bounced around too much on - so there can't have been much extra rolling resistance and the lower pressure gave me the extra traction/stability my inept riding style requires.

If your wheel/tyre combination is heavier than another option you considered, in proportion to the weight of an emtb it still can't be much ?

 

[Gary]

There's nothing stopping you running 2.4 tyres on a 40mm rim.
the internal width of the rim is still going to be 20mm narrower than the widest part of the tyre.
all it will mean is the tyre will have a wider/flatter profile.
I've run 2.3 tyres on 30 and 35mm rims with zero issues. (and at pressures upto 55psi)

I'm also just about to run a set of 2.0 slicks on a spare set of wheels with 30mm rims for commuting on.

 

[steve_sordy]

The thing about tyre pressures is that what works for roadies does not work for mtb. For smooth flat surfaces high pressure is good! It leads to lower rolling resistance and faster rides. But once you get bumpy trails, then those high pressure tyres end up bounding the whole bike back at you, slowing you down. Lower pressures allow the tyre to conform to the bumps, flow over them if you like and with reduced rolling resistance compared to the hard tyres. Tyres are the first line of suspension, so use them!

I can clearly remember flowing down a bumpy rooty trail and my mate following behind with his higher pressure tyres ("more efficient" he said) had to pedal to keep up, whilst I was not pedalling at all.

 

[Gary]

Depend how and where you ride too though Steve.
Plus tyres and low pressures don't work for shit for actual DH riders on proper DH tracks.

35psi and higher isn't unheard of for a big guy running a 2.5 DH tyre on a rough high speed track (think Ft William WC track)

 

[steve_sordy]

Depend how and where you ride too though Steve.
Plus tyres and low pressures don't work for shit for actual DH riders on proper DH tracks.

35psi and higher isn't unheard of for a big guy running a 2.5 DH tyre on a rough high speed track (think Ft William WC track)

I hear what you say Gary, but I'm betting that most of us are not actual DH riders on proper DH tracks. And I did recommend that the OP "....then ride the bike. Then change the pressure up or down according to how the bike rides and how it feels to you." That would take care of the DH riders on proper DH tracks. But I was answering pegnose and he is clearly not an experienced mtb rider (from his other posts, not just this one).

 

[Gary]

My point was big tyres at soft pressures does not always equal lower rolling resistance or higher rolling speeds even on bumpy terrain.
I took it as a given both you and your mate would be considerably slower than a more experienced descender on your bumpy flow trail no matter what pressures you were all running.
it was just an example of how/where different riders ride

 

[MarkH]

Tyre pressures are such a personal subject. As a rule of thumb I start at about 30psi for 2.2s or 2.4s, 20-25 for 2.5s or 2.6s and then 15-20 for 2.8s or 3.0s. Back a couple of psi higher than the front. But weight, terrain and riding style will adjust the above by maybe 5psi anyway. Add in tubeless or running liners and it's basically trial and error to find your sweetspot.

 

[flash]

I'm new to all of this - mountain bikes, electric mountain bikes, wheels, tyres .. everything .. so what I say shouldn't be taken too seriously because it's probably wrong .. though some of it might be right, or just interesting because of how wrong it is ! .. ..

I have 27.5+ . Started with Maxxis Ikons, tubed and from the bike shop these were at 3 bar (43psi). It felt like riding a bowling ball. So I lowered the pressure over, eventually to about 1.5 bar. 22 Psi. Which felt much better.

Swapped the tyres for DHF/DHRII combination as I wanted to try lower pressure and go tubeless - the Ikon's weren't tubeless rated so the LBS wouldn't do it. Unfortunately it came back still with tubes as they said they couldn't get tubeless to seal. Came back again at 3 bar (43psi) .. felt like a bowling ball again. So dropped the pressure to 1.5 (22Psi).

So the relevant part here to your question is the rolling resistance difference I felt. On a fast (for me) gravel descent,with the Ikon's I'd be on the brakes in various places to avoid underwear spoilage. With the DHR/DHF combination I lost so much speed from drag I didnt' need to brake at all.

So tyre type might also be an influential factor.

On the DHR/DHFII combination I eventually ended up at about 1.2 bar (17.5psi) . Which felt great, but as I improved and got faster it led to constant pinch flats.

The bike shop tried and failed again with tubeless so I did it myself and now find 1 bar to be nice for me (14.5 psi) . I don't find any more real world rolling resistance and the tyres don't feel squirmy (moving about) but bump absorbance is superb (Hardtail & bad rider who's depending on the bike to magically more than it should).

This morning I did a couple of tests just out of curiosity and ran 0.8 bar (11.5psi) and then 0.6 bar (8.7 psi).

Both of those felt squirmy on the descents, the 0.6 felt especially terrifying and was all over the place. Both felt like I was hitting the rim when I messed up and hit rocks hard. The interesting bit though was that with the 0.6 I finally took a KOM on a rocky, rooty climb I've been trying to get for ages but normally get bounced around too much on - so there can't have been much extra rolling resistance and the lower pressure gave me the extra traction/stability my inept riding style requires.

If your wheel/tyre combination is heavier than another option you considered, in proportion to the weight of an emtb it still can't be much ?

Got to say I'd be a bit concerned about a bike shop that can't seat a tubeless tyre.......

Gordon

 

[flash]

For my new Jam2 I decided for the "L" size (my upper body is a little bit longer than average), but I took the Plus wheels because they looked a little bit smaller in diameter so that the bike in total would not get too large and too hard to handle. Does that make any sense? I am starting to question my decision because of the performance of the wheels. They likely are heavier (read a bit into tubeless) and with less PSI (only 35 max, 2.4 bar i.e.) you might get more friction anyways. One reason for going eMTB for me was being able to take longer tours.

So... are Plus wheels just for show? Did I make a bad decision? Is only having 35 PSI on the wheels actually a downside? And should I definitely not go beyond that?

I think you might be confusing road riding with MTB with those pressures you cite. Generally the smoother the surface the higher the pressure and the less tread for faster rolling. Lower pressures and more tread for looser surfaces (as Gary cited, there are exceptions). If you're considering touring on gravel or tarmac you'd probably swap out the tyres for somthing that matches the conditions better.

Like Gary I have a spare set of wheels with a fay slick on them for riding on the road if I want to run errands during the week. Same size wheels and rims. Different rubber.

Gordon

 

[Zimmerframe]

Got to say I'd be a bit concerned about a bike shop that can't seat a tubeless tyre.......

Gordon

Just one item on a list of many horrors ! An unfortunate mix of inexperience and lack of knowledge combined (him, not me, though that does also apply to me) with a bucket load of arrogance and an unwillingness to learn means I can't see things ever improving. Needless to say I won't ever ever ever be returning to Bodger Bike.

 

[R120]

I think as with any tyre it’s a question of horses for courses, and personal preference. plus tyres have their benefits, but personally I think the days of the 3.0 proper plus tyre are passing, as you can get most of the benefits and less of the negatives from a 2.8.

For most people I think a 2.6 is the sweet spot on an EMTB. Personally I think any bigger than this and the plus tyres get squirmy and inaccurate in corners when ridden hard, and you loose a lot of feel, unless you pump up the pressures which kind of negates the purpose of them in the first place.

One area where a larger volume tyres are of real benefit IMO is hardtail a where they really do take the edge off the trail, but again I think a 2.8 or 2.6 gives you the benefits without the downsides.

 

[steve_sordy]

My point was big tyres at soft pressures does not always equal lower rolling resistance or higher rolling speeds even on bumpy terrain.
I took it as a given both you and your mate would be considerably slower than a more experienced descender on your bumpy flow trail no matter what pressures you were all running.
it was just an example of how/where different riders ride

Oh I see. I had thought you were referring to my response to the OP, not my later post. My apologies for my confusion.
You are absolutely correct to assume that my mate and I would have been slower (not considerably slower please) than a more experienced descender. I have been left behind by too many fast guys for me to doubt that. I suspect that it is my reluctance to take too much of a battering. When I feel as though the bike is about to disintegrate I slow down, but my perception of that point occurs earlier than for some others.

 

[pegnose]

Thanks to everyone for your insight and sharing of personal experience! I am slightly short of 90 kg (i.e. <200 lbs, if my math is correct). I definitely do not DH, just out of lack of opportunity. I do a lot of bumpy rooty trails and the ride to and fro on the road. For everyday use/errants I have a different bike, "clockwork" as Steve calls it.

For now I will start in the area of 20-25 PSI (rear > front) and take it from there. I never really used the tire as a suspension element as I did not want to ruin the rims. This will change now obviously (carefully, though). I was also concerned about the squirminess of the tires in corners as my everyday bike does not like low pressure. But the 2.8 Rekon+ 27.5ers probably take that differently, right?

Any tips for easily measuring/adjusting the pressure on the trail? Would this be a good choice?
SMARTGAUGE D2 | Topeak

EDIT: Re tubeless I was rather referring to the mass that has to rotate than the overall weight of the bike. Mine is supposed to be around 20 kg which is rather on the low end of moderately priced eMTBs afaik.

 

[Welshman]

There's nothing stopping you running 2.4 tyres on a 40mm rim.
the internal width of the rim is still going to be 20mm narrower than the widest part of the tyre.
all it will mean is the tyre will have a wider/flatter profile.
I've run 2.3 tyres on 30 and 35mm rims with zero issues. (and at pressures upto 55psi)

I'm also just about to run a set of 2.0 slicks on a spare set of wheels with 30mm rims for commuting on.

what slicks you running on the commute gary??

 

[cjm_wales]

For my new Jam2 I decided for the "L" size (my upper body is a little bit longer than average), but I took the Plus wheels because they looked a little bit smaller in diameter so that the bike in total would not get too large and too hard to handle. Does that make any sense? I am starting to question my decision because of the performance of the wheels. They likely are heavier (read a bit into tubeless) and with less PSI (only 35 max, 2.4 bar i.e.) you might get more friction anyways. One reason for going eMTB for me was being able to take longer tours.

So... are Plus wheels just for show? Did I make a bad decision? Is only having 35 PSI on the wheels actually a downside? And should I definitely not go beyond that?

I had a Jam2 with 2.8 tyres.

I thought it was the bees knees. Then again, I was comparing it to old 2.1" ish tyres on my 2008 boardman hardtail.

I liked the way they handled, especially the 'float' in corners.

Having gone to 2.5s on a Vitus E-sommet VR though, it's astounding how different the feel is. The smaller tyre is much more precise and gives a lot more feedback. I don't think I'd go back to 2.8".

 

[Dax]

Pressure is massively dependant on conditions and riding style. Mine had some air in this morning, rode a couple of trails with a layer of slime over hard pack and it didn't feel good, let a sniff out and now it feels good

 

[steve_sordy]

..........

Any tips for easily measuring/adjusting the pressure on the trail? Would this be a good choice?
SMARTGAUGE D2 | Topeak

EDIT: Re tubeless I was rather referring to the mass that has to rotate than the overall weight of the bike. Mine is supposed to be around 20 kg which is rather on the low end of moderately priced eMTBs afaik.

That pressure gauge is superb, buy one with confidence.

Ref tubeless: Do it, you will not regret it.
There will be a few cursing and swearing moments with some tyres and also some learning opportunities as you discover that rim tape even on new tyres can be faulty. I always strip off whatever comes on the bike and use two layers of Gorilla tape.

 

[Gasser]

Hi OP, I have the exact same Sam2 as you with same suspension and tyre combination, I'm also pretty much the same weight as yourself and I've been running about 18psi F&R and absolutely love it, really helps the budget fork / shock with really great low speed compliance and as much grip as you'd expect from the Rekon tyres.

 

[Jaygam]

I bought my bike in Feb as I miss motocross but it's too much hassle. It came with 27.5 by 35mm rims, Boost hubs, a 2.8 Maxxis DHR II on the front and a Reckon EXO on the rear, was the OEM setup on my bike. Both tyres are sub 20psi with tubes im 85 kg on the pedals.

I Would not run a Rekon on the front as it does let go at times but is still quite perdictable. it has opened my eyes to the enjoyment of deliberately getting a bit loose round certian bends to carry the speed through. I will however consider somthing else when it comes to replacing it.
The DHR up front seems odd but by the nature of what it's called but I don't think It could be any better. It tackles everything and never falters unless it's over 20psi on clusters of roots but at the right pressures those roots are where you can actually feel the difference of the 2.8 and how it does absorb some shock and just rolls over.
They are both noisy on the tarmac at those pressures but is perfectly ride-able as long as you dont go flat out into kerbs!
There is a fair amount of rolling resistance with shimano motor off it would become challenging after 3 miles or so.
They also ride up stairs very well at the right speed with low rebound on rear shock, if the rear wheel bounces and tyre slips you are stopped and it gets a bit awkward.
If I were to have to commute on this bike I would consider a 29 wheelset with more appropriate tyres, then just switch back for the trail riding.
I wouldnt say they were for show at all but depending what your riding on they have the capacity on one hand to extend your limitations off road and on the other hand restrict them on road. To truly do it all... two sets of wheels... two different setups or go for smaller less aggressive tyre for most the on road benifits but less forgiving off road.
As with everything, there is always compromise.

 

[Gary]

what slicks you running on the commute gary??

Schwalbe Big Bens.
I've just bought a new bike for them

 

[Welshman]

Schwalbe Big Bens.
I've just bought a new bike for them

i looked at those, but wanted around 2.2's

what bike are they going on??

 

[Gary]

My new commutEr ?

2.2 might have looked a little more... Erm.. Look at MEEE.. But in reality a 2.0 will be faster.

0.2" of a difference isn't going to make the bike do anything it couldn't already.

Tyre size is the NEW Black

 

[Dax]

0.2" of a difference isn't going to make the bike do anything it couldn't already.

Tyre size is the NEW Black

Surely you've noticed there's no direct link between the number written on the side of the tyre and the width of it ?

 

[Swissrob]

i looked at those, but wanted around 2.2's

what bike are they going on??

Here are 2 for Chf20 if you can organise postage.
Schwalbe Big Ben plus 27,5“x 2.00

 

[Welshman]

Here are 2 for Chf20 if you can organise postage.
Schwalbe Big Ben plus 27,5“x 2.00

i run 29ers.......and at the mo i'm running conti tour rides at 700x47mm

but thanks

 

[Gary]

Big apples come in 29
Pretty similar and also cheap.

 

[Gary]

Surely you've noticed there's no direct link between the number written on the side of the tyre and the width of it ?

*shrugs*

I'm the one guy here who still happily runs old skool 26x2.35 Maxxis on 21mm rims in proper gnar
(those things probably measure up no wider than 2.1")