Are e-bikes ruining mountain biking?

[Tim29]

Madman, i think the outlaw bikes the New York City messengers where using to rip through traffic at 45+mph causing several deaths and many accidents that led to ebikes being banned in New York City was a big punch to ebike hate

 

[Tamas]

Yes I do feel entitled to derestrict my £7000 ebike that I paid for, so it's my property.
As long as I'm riding on private property I'm not breaking any laws either.

Yeah, I hear you, this is the reaction I hear 100% of the time. You bought your £7000 bike knowing about the assist limit but it doesn't matter. Sure, you ride your derestricted ebike only on private property... like everybody else.
As ebikes will be more popular the derestricting issue will be bigger too. On the long run, lawmakers can come up with an easy solution and change all ebikes' classification to mopeds same as the 45kph s-pedelecs and there goes the 'entitlement'.

 

[Benson]

I'm stating that you don't break the law by deresticting the bike, it's where you use the bike that's the issue

No, it’s doing the opposite of what the law says is exactly your issue. I don’t like the fact I can’t do 100mph on a motorway without breaking the law. Whether I continue to do it is another matter but I’m not in denial it’s illegal ....

 

[Rob Back]

Great observations and I will keep them in mind. Too bad things are not quite as positive as I hoped, at least in the US, but I still think the overall balance must be positive because at least most people who are beginners dedicate a substantially higher budget to the emtb than they ever would a normal bike and more people shy away from the direct sales model. Fingers crossed.

Direct sales is fine if you have a friendly shop who can maintain it for you, but the problem is the parts and they are not likely to have them on the shelf so you will be fitting after market some of the time. The worry for me is how will they get on in a few months time when the motor started to make a noise, you have to pack it up and send it back..... in the UK we do like to go direct to the warehouse if it means we will save a few bob. Is that the right way to go, the answer to that question depends on what type of user you are.

 

[Paul Mac]

No, it’s doing the opposite of what the law says is exactly your issue. I don’t like the fact I can’t do 100mph on a motorway without breaking the law. Whether I continue to do it is another matter but I’m not in denial it’s illegal ....

Why would you want to do 100mph?
Sounds dangerous ?

 

[Tamas]

Direct sales is fine if you have a friendly shop who can maintain it for you, but the problem is the parts and they are not likely to have them on the shelf so you will be fitting after market some of the time. The worry for me is how will they get on in a few months time when the motor started to make a noise, you have to pack it up and send it back..... in the UK we do like to go direct to the warehouse if it means we will save a few bob. Is that the right way to go, the answer to that question depends on what type of user you are.

My last four regular bikes were direct sales so as my ebike. Personally, I don't see more need for shop support for ebikes - if you choose carefully. My pick was a Shimano E8000 equipped Commencal with an external battery without any blings, no need for sponges for plugging holes etc. and great specs for the price. Shimano takes care of the warranty regarding to the E8000 system and the rest is exactly the same as with regular bikes. On a Shimano system, the motor/battery doesn't require any maintenance that you cannot do at home, firmware upgrades are done through your phone/tablet it's the best system (in my opinion).
So if someone has experience with direct sales bikes, I wouldn't shy away from the direct sales offering.

 

[steve_sordy]

EMTB will ruin MTB if it gets so popular that it becomes the majority. If this is the case then we'll see new trail building change in favor of the EMTB with steeper gradient climbs than what most mtb's can handle. ................

@The Flying Dutchman :
I'm sure there are already features at many trail centres that some and maybe many mtb riders can't handle, assisted by "e" or not. Unless some brave (and maybe foolish) soul builds a trail that is designed and designated for emtbs then I believe that trails will continue to be dual use.
I have seen guys on cross bikes riding red trails, and I'll bet some of them will tackle a black just to see if they can. Hardtail riders are not dissuaded from tackling black trails just because they don't have rear suspension. I agree that the power of "e" helps me get up steep stuff, but so far I haven't been able to get up anything that I couldn't have climbed five years ago. Maybe that says more about my "e" climbing skills than it should, but I haven't noticed anything that's made me go "wow!"
So I am inclined to disagree with your statement.

 

[Gary]

The thing about trail centre design is it's intentionally progressive.
Having said that people get far too hung up on the colour grading. (there is an overlap in the skill level required to ride various grade trails and there is very little consistency from trail to trail, centre to centre)
I consider myself a very compitent rider and no graded trail centre feature I have ever ridden has ever been as technical/difficult as natural terrain can be. They're all designed to be rideable and I honestly can't think of a single black feature that is not rideable on a fully rigid bike.
I could definitely show you a few climbs you couldn't do on a regular bike that can be done using the extra assistance of an Emtb. None are part of official trail centre routes though. By definition all climbs at a trail centre are entirely achievable on an unassisted bike.

what are we on about again?

 

[steve_sordy]

....................................

what are we on about again?

Whether trail centres will be designed with features that can only be done by emtbs. In the thread about whether e-bikes are ruining mountain biking. Pay attention Gary!

 

[Gary]

Sorry mate... I was joking

My real point was the discussion is pretty pointless

No. Trail centres won't be designed with features only possible on emtbs.

 

[R120]

It varies from country to country, but I would say in the UK EMTB'S may be just the shot in the arm that a lot of smaller dealers/shops etc have needed.

Lot of people coming in to buy the bikes, and even if they are buying the bike on line then there are still a lot of people going into the shops to buy equipment/helmets/servicing etc.

Most of the local shops I have spoke to where initially taken aback by the demand, and now very grateful for it.

 

[Gary]

I know for a fact my local bike shop owner holds back his true feelings on Ebikes to a lot of punters. But not necessarily in the way you might think.
Cycle punters can be very vocal in their views. sometimes it's best to just smile, allow them to vent and sell them the new shiny they want.

 

[Dax]

Emtb's definitely ruined mtb for me

 

[Rob Back]

If it wasn’t for emtb’s I would have given up mountain biking ?

 

[Coolbanana]

I'm glad I live in an area that has zero issue with ebikes; indeed, ebikes are quite common, being a tourist area and many rent them. We have very few bike shops but all say that ebikes now account for 40% of their revenue and increasing.

Trails are not a problem. I don't know of any private ones, they are all Council-owned and anyone can use them, free, without question. And we have amazing trails.

I've had my eMTB for a month now and it has really re-ignited my passion for cycling. It has made me stronger and fitter already, no doubt. My daily 40km ride is half road, half off-road and very hilly - and for most of it I am cycling above 25km/h and therefore above the assist level. I can feel the bike is heavy then and enjoy the workout, trying to push beyond the assist on the less steep hills.

I prefer my eMTB for off-road duty over my standard MTB, just from a fun factor. I will never want to chip it, I like the low down torque it provides on technical parts of the trails and enjoy the workout from exercising when it is above the assist; why? Because then when I jump on to my road bike, it feels wonderful and light. It is akin to carrying weights when training for running events to me. So making the assist level higher defeats the purpose of my eMTB to me. That said, I have no problems with others wanting to increase the assist levels of their bikes - we all enjoy our riding in different ways.

 

[steve_sordy]

I am in that category of "needing" an emtb. Over the last 3-4 years, my climbing speed has slowed dramatically, my distance covered has fallen down to 10-13 trail miles, and where I ride has cramped down to a few trail centres and an uplift location. Because I hate being "the guy at the back" that holds everybody else up, I gradually stopped riding with my mates in places with lots of hills, or long rides.

It is early days yet, but my Focus Jam2 with TEC pack seems to be the key to getting back to where I was. So I can honestly say that emtb has saved mountain biking for me.

 

[Mabman]

Madman, i think the outlaw bikes the New York City messengers where using to rip through traffic at 45+mph causing several deaths and many accidents that led to ebikes being banned in New York City was a big punch to ebike hate

Not that what you say isn't true it had little to do with eMTB's and really only affected that particular urban area. It still does to an extent but as I alluded to there is a general softening and acceptance of the fact that eBikes are here and here to stay, even in NYC: Push to Legalize E-Bikes and E-Scooters in New York City Sets Up City Hall Clash

 

[Dewi]

As I see around me, ebike owners feel entitled to derestrict their ebikes which - apart from being illegal - just fuels the negativity towards ebikes. It's a weird situation for me, other ebike owners think I'm crazy because I won't derestrict mine and 'ebike haters' don't believe me when I tell them that my bike is not derestricted. ?

I do believe if people keep derestricting bikes it will ruin EMTB, the authorities will reclassify them and we will lose trail access. Tread softly during these times.
It's not the time to have the "it's my $$$ bike and I only ride private property" attitude, because we all know that is BS.

 

[R120]

The problem is that the current laws surrounding them are as confusing to the matter as anything else - I think restriction of assistance above a certain speed is not the right metric, it should be the motor power output. The outright speed of a the pedalassist EMTB's is governed by the gearing on the bike, not the motor.

I also think that it is the motor power outputs going up that will do the arguments in favour of EMTB's no favours, and actually I suspect a mega torquey motor riden at well below the current speed restriction levels would be more likely to do trail damage that a derestricted EMTB being ridden over the limit.

I would be much happier being a limit of 80NM and no restriction being the legal qualification, Thant be riding around on a 120NM motor.

To keep EMTB's being essentially nor that far removed from normal MTB's, and as such under the same umbrella in terms of trail use/intneded use, going down the route of more power is not going to help

 

[Dewi]

Speed can be an issue as here we have shared paths. A 25+kg e-bike sharing a path with pedestrians, dog walkers, children should have enough sense to ride slowly, sadly sense is not common.

 

[R120]

Yes but the speed is no different to any bike being ridden at speed in an inappropriate area, and ultimately that is down to the user.

 

[Tim29]

Not that what you say isn't true it had little to do with eMTB's and really only affected that particular urban area. It still does to an extent but as I alluded to there is a general softening and acceptance of the fact that eBikes are here and here to stay, even in NYC: Push to Legalize E-Bikes and E-Scooters in New York City Sets Up City Hall Clash

I went to several state park meetings on the legalization of eMTB on the trail system and they referenced anew York city’s problems with them to a tiring point. Like a broken record.
I truly believe that if they didn’t have the ebikes to ride and several where de restricted and no one noticed the restricted vs derestricted bikes we wouldn’t have 80% of the trails we do in northern ca.
It was quite genius what Ted did by having them all ride bikes and several being illegal models to ride.
As at the end of the day in the meeting they said well the legal bikes we rode seem to be a good mix for our trails it’s the illegal models that are going to create a big problem.
Then he Informed them and showed them the illegal modified units that several of them had ridden already and not one person noticed the difference.
Holding back the info that several of the bikes had been modified till after the test was done was brilliant move and made a big impact in a positive way.
But my take is it seems to be a strong American trait to voice your disapproval on things you don’t have any first hand knowledge of and create a problem that doesn’t exist by falsely informing there specs and abilities, or misportaying them.

 

[Leethal1]

As a shop that sells Emtbs, there are a few things that most consumers don’t know:


3. The aftercare takes more time than a standard mountain bike. Noisy motor swaps, filter foams and now linkage upgrades, while free to the customer, take time away from paying service customers. While I could do a motor swap on a Levo 1 in 20 minutes, a Levo 2 takes... Significantly longer.

Al what is this linkage upgrade????

 

[Al Boneta]

Al what is this linkage upgrade????

it just has slightly more clearance between the frame and the linkage

 

[HikerDave]

I am in that category of "needing" an emtb. Over the last 3-4 years, my climbing speed has slowed dramatically, my distance covered has fallen down to 10-13 trail miles, and where I ride has cramped down to a few trail centres and an uplift location. Because I hate being "the guy at the back" that holds everybody else up, I gradually stopped riding with my mates in places with lots of hills, or long rides.

It is early days yet, but my Focus Jam2 with TEC pack seems to be the key to getting back to where I was. So I can honestly say that emtb has saved mountain biking for me.

Same here, but complicated with an SI Joint issue. I think that what's going to ruin mountain biking here in the US is too many bikes on the trails. eBikes let more people enjoy bicycling on the trails because let's not kid ourselves; without the eBike enjoyment of the mountain biking requires an elite level of fitness. The eBike lowers the barrier to entry, which means more bikes and more user conflicts.

Mountain bikers, like my former self, will hide between virtue-laden arguments like it's not human powered, or safety-driven arguments like the ridiculous "closing speed" argument (no, I'm not a jet fighter pilot intercepting a bomber).But it's really about keeping hiker conflicts low which means keeping the number of mountain bikers low.

 

[Tamas]

I think restriction of assistance above a certain speed is not the right metric, it should be the motor power output.

The restriction is the assist speed and power output - 25kph/250W continuous power (in the EU). I don't see a problem with it as there is an s-pedelec category that allows 45kph assist speed and over 250W power and they are considered as mopeds.
Yes, 25kph assist limit is a compromise - it only affects ~5% of my riding - but in return, we can ride our ebikes everywhere with the same conditions as the non-assisted bikes. For me, it's a pretty good deal and the assist limit is not an absolute speed limit, I can pedal faster from my own power or going downhill.
The power output is harder to regulate. The 'continuous' power is 250W and manufacturers listed ~500W peak power. I think it raised some questions and now they are giving some crazy torque numbers instead - TQ's 120Nm is the torque of a 1.2L petrol engine. ?
On the other hand, speed cannot be measured 'creatively' so regulating the assist this way is reasonable in my opinion.

 

[Pug907]

As has been said, ignorance & in my personal experience, elitism is the worst enemy of the emtb. I've just bought my first emtb from a local bike shop selling mainly mtb's. When the staff suggested getting a couple of ebikes in to sell, the owner's reply was "who the hell would buy one of those????" He eventually relented & after his first test ride response was " bloody hell, who wouldn't want one of these?" They now have more emtbs than mandraulic mtbs ?

 

[R120]

The restriction is the assist speed and power output - 25kph/250W continuous power (in the EU). I don't see a problem with it as there is an s-pedelec category that allows 45kph assist speed and over 250W power and they are considered as mopeds.
Yes, 25kph assist limit is a compromise - it only affects ~5% of my riding - but in return, we can ride our ebikes everywhere with the same conditions as the non-assisted bikes. For me, it's a pretty good deal and the assist limit is not an absolute speed limit, I can pedal faster from my own power or going downhill.
The power output is harder to regulate. The 'continuous' power is 250W and manufacturers listed ~500W peak power. I think it raised some questions and now they are giving some crazy torque numbers instead - TQ's 120Nm is the torque of a 1.2L petrol engine. ?
On the other hand, speed cannot be measured 'creatively' so regulating the assist this way is reasonable in my opinion.

I think we are making the same point in a round about way - at the moment all proper EMTB's offer their assistance in a broadly similar way, i.e you are not going to go out on a group ride with people on various bike, and find that certain riders are going to pull ahead based on the motor alone - motors with higher peak power outputs may change this.

I.E at the moment someone on an EMTB is faster than someone on a normal MTB up a hill, but only faster than someone else on an EMTB if they are fitter/putting more into the climb. With a bike like the new Flyon, will we see a spot between EMTB riders where by legally we are riding the same class bikes, but some can blast up hills a lot faster due to the higher peak power outputs.

The fact that the speed cut off point is different around the world, but the power classification is not, shows the confusion on this. I do believe they have to be regulated properly to ensure clear boundaries to ensure we can ride the bike, as you say, I just don't think the current regulations actually reflect the reality of riding the bikes.

With or without a motor there have always been people riding faster than others, what EMTB's bring into the equation is people riding faster in areas no one expected people to be riding faster, and from my experience that is higher average speeds in trail sections where you are not riding that fast.

 

[Tamas]

I think we are making the same point in a round about way - at the moment all proper EMTB's offer their assistance in a broadly similar way, i.e you are not going to go out on a group ride with people on various bike, and find that certain riders are going to pull ahead based on the motor alone - motors with higher peak power outputs may change this.

I.E at the moment someone on an EMTB is faster than someone on a normal MTB up a hill, but only faster than someone else on an EMTB if they are fitter/putting more into the climb. With a bike like the new Flyon, will we see a spot between EMTB riders where by legally we are riding the same class bikes, but some can blast up hills a lot faster due to the higher peak power outputs.

The fact that the speed cut off point is different around the world, but the power classification is not, shows the confusion on this. I do believe they have to be regulated properly to ensure clear boundaries to ensure we can ride the bike, as you say, I just don't think the current regulations actually reflect the reality of riding the bikes.

With or without a motor there have always been people riding faster than others, what EMTB's bring into the equation is people riding faster in areas no one expected people to be riding faster, and from my experience that is higher average speeds in trail sections where you are not riding that fast.

I don't know, if I had the power to regulate ebikes I would do it in the same way as it is now in the EU - assist speed and power.
The assist speed limit can be debated but when you have two camps - one which says a motor assisted bike is a motorized vehicle, not a bicycle and the other which wants it to be a bicycle and doesn't want a limit on the assist, both sides need to compromise. Of course, the regulations are not the same globally, and we need to be careful what we wish for we cannot really pick and choose. In the US, the assist limit is 20MPH but their trail access is limited/restricted to motorized trails. I'd rather give up 4MPH assist speed than trail access...

Before I bought my ebike I rode my wife's LP Overvolt a lot to see if the 25kph assist limit is an acceptable compromise for me or not. I found it a non-issue for my riding so I bought my Commencal. I live in a hilly area and the average speeds/times on my regular loops (15-45km) are ridiculous compared to my regular bike. Shimano improved with each firmware update and the cut-off is pretty much unnoticeable and it's not holding me back from anything. On flats, I can easily keep up 30-32kph and I'm not much (if any) faster with my regular bike.

 

[R120]

I agree that that the need to derestrict or not is somewhat separate, I just think that that focusing on the speed limit is not the real crux of the issue, but the overall power of the bikes is.