Anybody bought the speedi planetary magnet?

[KWOG]

I was looking around for a way to raise my cutoff without playing with software or plugging in an electronic device. I came across the speedi planetary gear setup which makes the magnet spin 1.5 times slower. Has anyone used one of these on a bosch setup. I have 2022 Trek Rail 7 for reference.

Thanks,

Craig

 

[Eagleboy64]

Yes I have a trek rail 7 2023 smart system and all good. Done about 1200kms with it. Using the app and Kiox 300.

 

[Singletrack Scene]

I was looking around for a way to raise my cutoff without playing with software or plugging in an electronic device. I came across the speedi planetary gear setup which makes the magnet spin 1.5 times slower. Has anyone used one of these on a bosch setup. I have 2022 Trek Rail 7 for reference.

Thanks,

Craig

I'm also considering one of these, I'm trying to understand its effects on speed/distance and range whilst installed. Mileage corrections for example. Total miles ridden won't be the same. - Other than that, I'm sold!

 

[cakepanda]

I bought the Speedi and it worked really well for a few hundred miles, but then I got the dreaded Bosch 524001 speed sensor manipulation error.
Quite surprised that the bosch software managed to detect something like this...

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

I bought the Speedi and it worked really well for a few hundred miles, but then I got the dreaded Bosch 524001 speed sensor manipulation error.
Quite surprised that the bosch software managed to detect something like this...

Do you have your bike connected to the flow app while riding, and do you have activity tracking enabled?

General consensus is to not connect to the flow app if using a manipulator.

I'm also considering one of these, I'm trying to understand its effects on speed/distance and range whilst installed. Mileage corrections for example. Total miles ridden won't be the same. - Other than that, I'm sold!

Speed and mileage will record lower than actual, I believe cadence and power output readings are also affected. It pretty much makes the kiox redundant so I've heard.

 

[cakepanda]

Do you have your bike connected to the flow app while riding, and do you have activity tracking enabled?

General consensus is to not connect to the flow app if using a manipulator.


Speed and mileage will record lower than actual, I believe cadence and power output readings are also affected. It pretty much makes the kiox redundant so I've heard.

Had the Flow app installed but denied it any GPS/tracking or data permissions.
Now trying the 90mins cycle in limp mode, but suspect will have to take back to bike shop.

If this continues to happen, will have to change e-bike to one with a more easily derestricted motor like Bafang.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Interesting, yours is the first report I've read of the system picking up a speedi.
Seems it's detection is getting more and more sophisticated, though I'm not sure how it gets the data if you don't have the app running.

 

[cakepanda]

Interesting, yours is the first report I've read of the system picking up a speedi.
Seems it's detection is getting more and more sophisticated, though I'm not sure how it gets the data if you don't have the app running.

It's the second time this has happened to me. First time was, i think, my fault as the rear axle had become a little loose leaving the Speedi to occasionally slip in position which clearly would give erroneous speed data to the computer. I took it to the bike shop and they did a firmware update which cured the speed sensor error. I imagine that Bosch are aware of the Speedi and if average power figures look approximately 1.5x higher than expected overall for speed then it may trigger the error. Also the bosch software is expecting a specific min/max ratio for cadence and speed, however I was trying hard not to use the lowest couple of gears to avoid this pitfall.
I've emailed NLS components to see if they have had any other reports.
Maybe it isn't the Speedi, but I have a faulty speed sensor? That would be great if it were the case.

 

[Embt]

Ye but up could change ur chain ring to a higher tooth and speed would be lower cadence and same speed surely bosch would know this. Unless the motor reads diameter too

 

[xsurfy]

I converted my Orbea Wild 2023 from ring sensor to Disc rotor sensor and bought a Speedi. NLS Components helped me out as the Orbea Wild 2023/24 is not officially supported.

Really happy with the outcome, 25 km/h is just to slow imho.

 

[cakepanda]

update on my 524001 error with the Speedi. I took the Speedi off and the error disappeared plus speedo started working again. Inspected the Speedi - there was a thin film of dirt over the magnet which I suspect was disrupting the magnetic field slightly. Also distance from Speedi magnet to sensor was greater than with original magnet, so I ended up shimming the sensor to bring it slightly closer to magnet -now all working again as it should.

Interestingly, when I had the 524001 error, the speedo showed zero but the odometer was reading correctly as was average speed. So clearly the sensor was picking up a signal, but suspect bosch software calibrated for a particular strength of magnetic field and any less than expected throws the error.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

The distance and strength don't really matter so long as it's enough to close the reed switch inside the sensor. If your bike was reading distance but not speed, it wasn't the fault of the speed sensor - it was the result of the error. You are already aware of the potential problem with the low gears which puts you outside the possible range of cadence and speed map, which is good, but what Shimano did was just constrict this range further and further until it became non-viable for any meaningful gain in speed (no errors with 1.2:1 ratio but that's a negligible bump in speed). Since SPEEDi is basically a copy of the old Shapeways LSS with some features mixed in from PLANET3 (such as mounting it on the bolt heads), it was a matter of time before this started to happen. I tested this at least 2 years before Speedi was even on the market and yes, everything works for a few hundred miles or kilometers (the ratio I tested was 1.4:1 as 1.675:1 resulted in errors rather quickly) but then two bikes started to receive limp mode errors. That's when I decided it was not worth playing with people's warranties and started replying to every Bosch inquiry that PLANET3 isn't supported because it is detectable by Bosch after some time. The amount of time depends on your use case: for people that did more technical climbs in low gears - they got the error sooner. For some who used the bike for commuting they could get away with 1500 km before the error appeared, but it did appear sooner or later. The only way to reliably derestrict a Bosch motor is via a chip, but even here you have a problem that Bosch themselves are cheating - what I mean is, they basically say in their algorithm for detection that if your bike is never ridden OVER the speed limit WITHOUT power - you have manipulated it. This is, of course, technically wrong and immoral of them, but hey.. it's the company behind Diesel-Gate. Imagine the following scenario: you load your bike onto your car, go to the trail head, ride it uphill below the speed limit (physics will set it so), then descent over the speed limit but without pedaling. Do 1500 km of this and you will be in limp mode error with a completely stock bike. They simply pronounced that never running into the speed limit is "impossible". This is why other chip manufacturers now advise to put the speed limit at 35 km/h or to some value where you still run into the speed limit from time to time. However, I've made a full derestriction device for Bosch but am still testing how to implement this occasional speed limit hit i.e. you'd have a power cut for 50 ms every few kilometers or so, telling the motor that the speed limit was touched but it wouldn't be something that you feel. That's how they handle the nominal vs. peak power problem. Bikes all have a nominal 250W sustained power output, but we know all of them basically have 700W motors that should be illegal. The workaround is that every 30 seconds or 1 minute depending on the manufacturer, there is a current drop in the motor that takes it from 700W to 250W for a couple of miliseconds - just enough to satisfy the "letter of the law" that it wasn't "sustained power over 250W for more than 30 seconds". Anyway, the world is full of unscrupulous people who are ready to copy and sell products without worrying about warranties and potential problems. Be careful out there.

 

[cakepanda]

The distance and strength don't really matter so long as it's enough to close the reed switch inside the sensor. If your bike was reading distance but not speed, it wasn't the fault of the speed sensor - it was the result of the error. You are already aware of the potential problem with the low gears which puts you outside the possible range of cadence and speed map, which is good, but what Shimano did was just constrict this range further and further until it became non-viable for any meaningful gain in speed (no errors with 1.2:1 ratio but that's a negligible bump in speed). Since SPEEDi is basically a copy of the old Shapeways LSS with some features mixed in from PLANET3 (such as mounting it on the bolt heads), it was a matter of time before this started to happen. I tested this at least 2 years before Speedi was even on the market and yes, everything works for a few hundred miles or kilometers (the ratio I tested was 1.4:1 as 1.675:1 resulted in errors rather quickly) but then two bikes started to receive limp mode errors. That's when I decided it was not worth playing with people's warranties and started replying to every Bosch inquiry that PLANET3 isn't supported because it is detectable by Bosch after some time. The amount of time depends on your use case: for people that did more technical climbs in low gears - they got the error sooner. For some who used the bike for commuting they could get away with 1500 km before the error appeared, but it did appear sooner or later. The only way to reliably derestrict a Bosch motor is via a chip, but even here you have a problem that Bosch themselves are cheating - what I mean is, they basically say in their algorithm for detection that if your bike is never ridden OVER the speed limit WITHOUT power - you have manipulated it. This is, of course, technically wrong and immoral of them, but hey.. it's the company behind Diesel-Gate. Imagine the following scenario: you load your bike onto your car, go to the trail head, ride it uphill below the speed limit (physics will set it so), then descent over the speed limit but without pedaling. Do 1500 km of this and you will be in limp mode error with a completely stock bike. They simply pronounced that never running into the speed limit is "impossible". This is why other chip manufacturers now advise to put the speed limit at 35 km/h or to some value where you still run into the speed limit from time to time. However, I've made a full derestriction device for Bosch but am still testing how to implement this occasional speed limit hit i.e. you'd have a power cut for 50 ms every few kilometers or so, telling the motor that the speed limit was touched but it wouldn't be something that you feel. That's how they handle the nominal vs. peak power problem. Bikes all have a nominal 250W sustained power output, but we know all of them basically have 700W motors that should be illegal. The workaround is that every 30 seconds or 1 minute depending on the manufacturer, there is a current drop in the motor that takes it from 700W to 250W for a couple of miliseconds - just enough to satisfy the "letter of the law" that it wasn't "sustained power over 250W for more than 30 seconds". Anyway, the world is full of unscrupulous people who are ready to copy and sell products without worrying about warranties and potential problems. Be careful out there.

Thank for for such a useful and comprehensive reply. That's a bit concerning to hear. It is odd however that my error code disappeared immediately after removing the Speedi and installing the stock magnet - literally as soon as a pedalled a couple of meters.
I see your point about Bosch seeing if you pedal above the speed limit but am not sure that this would be the case. The rationale for this is that my very heavy cargo bike is pretty much impossible to pedal without assistance above it's speed limit. Hitting 15.5mph is like hitting a wall! However, if this is the case that Bosch is detecting if you never pedal without assistance above the set maximum speed, I wonder if lowering the speed limit in the Flow app would be sensible so that at least I hit the speed limit more often?

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Interesting info, the detections seems so random, many people on Facebook groups reporting thousands of miles with zero issue, while others have issues within a few hundred miles.

I'm wondering if something else is to blame, faulty speed sensors

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

I see your point about Bosch seeing if you pedal above the speed limit but am not sure that this would be the case. The rationale for this is that my very heavy cargo bike is pretty much impossible to pedal without assistance above it's speed limit. Hitting 15.5mph is like hitting a wall! However, if this is the case that Bosch is detecting if you never pedal without assistance above the set maximum speed, I wonder if lowering the speed limit in the Flow app would be sensible so that at least I hit the speed limit more often?

You might be taking what I said too literally. They're looking for you pedaling without the motor providing power at or around the speed limit If you hit 25-26 km/h and simply keep it there, that satisfies the condition they've set - but never running into a speed limit power cut is what they consider "impossible".

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

So If I'm understanding this correctly, as long as you hit the assistance speed limit (which is easy to do with the speedi) and use leg power beyond it regularly, you reduce the chance of the system picking up a manipulation?

 

[checksum]

Extremely useful posts Alex. I don't think I would have any problem hitting the limit regularly, but I'm slightly nervous about the cadence issue in low gears. Are we talking avoiding sustained steep climbs or does the motor keep a running tally of your activities such that it's not worth risking it at all?

Furthermore, does anyone know if the SPEEDi works in eMTB or tour+ modes? NJS claim it won't work in auto, otherwise they only mention eco, trail and turbo modes.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

So If I'm understanding this correctly, as long as you hit the assistance speed limit (which is easy to do with the speedi) and use leg power beyond it regularly, you reduce the chance of the system picking up a manipulation?

Yes, but as @checksum said - there still remains the issue of very low gear speed vs. cadence which over time as your rack up enough time outside the "allowed" map of speed and cadence will likely cause a limp mode error.

Furthermore, does anyone know if the SPEEDi works in eMTB or tour+ modes? NJS claim it won't work in auto, otherwise they only mention eco, trail and turbo modes.

If those modes use the speed as one of the variables for adjusting the power assist levels - then it could be problematic but I don't see why it would not work completely. If the motor adjusts power based on speed, it's simply tuned to provide more power at lower speed and less power as you approach the speed limit so the cutoff doesn't feel as abrupt. If you put it in any "auto" mode - it should just provide let's say 5-10% more power over the whole range due to your 33% lower perceived speed due to gear ratio. That's why a Specialized bike equiped with a mechanical PLANET3 is faster than a bike equipped with a chip. Chips usually take 80% of the speed limit as a starting point for "lying" but you're already really close to the speed limit, while with a 3:1 planetary gear set you're at 3x lower speed (at 25 you're at 8 km/h) where the motor is naturally tuned to provide a lot more power.

 

[xsurfy]

Yes, but as @checksum said - there still remains the issue of very low gear speed vs. cadence which over time as your rack up enough time outside the "allowed" map of speed and cadence will likely cause a limp mode error.



If those modes use the speed as one of the variables for adjusting the power assist levels - then it could be problematic but I don't see why it would not work completely. If the motor adjusts power based on speed, it's simply tuned to provide more power at lower speed and less power as you approach the speed limit so the cutoff doesn't feel as abrupt. If you put it in any "auto" mode - it should just provide let's say 5-10% more power over the whole range due to your 33% lower perceived speed due to gear ratio. That's why a Specialized bike equiped with a mechanical PLANET3 is faster than a bike equipped with a chip. Chips usually take 80% of the speed limit as a starting point for "lying" but you're already really close to the speed limit, while with a 3:1 planetary gear set you're at 3x lower speed (at 25 you're at 8 km/h) where the motor is naturally tuned to provide a lot more power.

Hi there, according to NLS website the ratio is 1.5/1

"SPEEDi uses a mechanical planetary gear system to slow down the magnet by a factor of 1.5/1 meaning, for every 1 rotation of the magnet, the wheel has gone 1.5 rotations, therefore if your standard speed is 30kmph, it will now achieve 45kmph."

On theory 25 km/h = 38 ish km/h. That being said, the 3:1 (I asume its 3 wheel rotations) does not apply to Speedi..... Right? The only reason I use it is to avoid the "cut off" trying to jump something of consequence !! Very unpleasant feeling and dangerous.

BTW thanks for all the info on your previous posts.

Cheers

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

Yep, 2 different products. 3:1 is PLANET3, 1.5:1 is Speedi. Agreed on the jumping, that and starting from a stoplight followed by a truck going into something tight with a wall on the side (underpass) are the two most common nightmares with a restricted bike (at least for me).

 

[checksum]

The only reason I use it is to avoid the "cut off" trying to jump something of consequence !! Very unpleasant feeling and dangerous.

It's so jarring isn't it. I would give up the 680W power in a heartbeat if it meant just some leeway with the speed threshold to avoid such a dramatic brick wall effect occuring so regularly.

The main attraction for a mechanical device was the simplicity and lack of detection, but it's never simple with Bosch.

​

 

[xsurfy]

It's so jarring isn't it. I would give up the 680W power in a heartbeat if it meant just some leeway with the speed threshold to avoid such a dramatic brick wall effect occuring so regularly.

The main attraction for a mechanical device was the simplicity and lack of detection, but it's never simple with Bosch.

​

Yes it is! If the limit was 32km/h, I'm pretty sure hardly anyone would bother to derestrict their bikes. I had a Orbea Rise H15 (540w) previous the one I have now, downgraded the firmware (eTuning app) and change the region to US..... Happy camper

 

[cakepanda]

I have a further update regarding the Speedi and Bosch gen 4 smart system.

Just got the 3rd 524001 error using the Speedi. The first error was cleared by the bike shop after an update, the second error I cleared by riding 90mins. The third error - I cannot clear. I took it to the local Bosch dealer who were not able to clear the code and so are now in communication with Bosch for a solution. Stuck in limp mode.
I'm fairly sure that, at least, the second error was because my rear axle had become loose so the Speedi was turning on the axle as well as with wheel rotation. I made very sure that it was tight after this and put markers on the Speedi to ensure I knew it wasn't turning erroneously. I also shimmed behind the speed sensor to bring it closer to the Speedi magnet.

I think I had done about 500 miles between second and third errors.

I have a bad feeling that Bosch will not allow the motor to be reset and might end up having to buy another motor.

Am not ever going to buy another Bosch powered bike. In contrast to this I have a Shimano EP801 cargo motor on my other bike and unlocking the speed on this was really straight forward with a software modification so it now acts as a Class 3 US motor with limit of 45km/h.

 

[Spin]

I have a further update regarding the Speedi and Bosch gen 4 smart system.

Just got the 3rd 524001 error using the Speedi. The first error was cleared by the bike shop after an update, the second error I cleared by riding 90mins. The third error - I cannot clear. I took it to the local Bosch dealer who were not able to clear the code and so are now in communication with Bosch for a solution. Stuck in limp mode.
I'm fairly sure that, at least, the second error was because my rear axle had become loose so the Speedi was turning on the axle as well as with wheel rotation. I made very sure that it was tight after this and put markers on the Speedi to ensure I knew it wasn't turning erroneously. I also shimmed behind the speed sensor to bring it closer to the Speedi magnet.

I think I had done about 500 miles between second and third errors.

I have a bad feeling that Bosch will not allow the motor to be reset and might end up having to buy another motor.

Am not ever going to buy another Bosch powered bike. In contrast to this I have a Shimano EP801 cargo motor on my other bike and unlocking the speed on this was really straight forward with a software modification so it now acts as a Class 3 US motor with limit of 45km/h.

Question : Have you had the Flow app running when these errors occurred ?. Did you allow Flow to access your location while running ?

 

[Damo888]

I have a further update regarding the Speedi and Bosch gen 4 smart system.

Just got the 3rd 524001 error using the Speedi. The first error was cleared by the bike shop after an update, the second error I cleared by riding 90mins. The third error - I cannot clear. I took it to the local Bosch dealer who were not able to clear the code and so are now in communication with Bosch for a solution. Stuck in limp mode.
I'm fairly sure that, at least, the second error was because my rear axle had become loose so the Speedi was turning on the axle as well as with wheel rotation. I made very sure that it was tight after this and put markers on the Speedi to ensure I knew it wasn't turning erroneously. I also shimmed behind the speed sensor to bring it closer to the Speedi magnet.

I think I had done about 500 miles between second and third errors.

I have a bad feeling that Bosch will not allow the motor to be reset and might end up having to buy another motor.

Am not ever going to buy another Bosch powered bike. In contrast to this I have a Shimano EP801 cargo motor on my other bike and unlocking the speed on this was really straight forward with a software modification so it now acts as a Class 3 US motor with limit of 45km/h.

There was a company selling the same thing as the Speedi but before Speedi came on the scene. He stopped selling them because I think he could not gaurantee that Bosche and other companies would eventually work out what speedi was doing something like your not hitting the speed limited enough or something like that.

 

[cakepanda]

Question : Have you had the Flow app running when these errors occurred ?. Did you allow Flow to access your location while running ?

Nope, disabled the Flow app, even took out the GPS tracker device that came with the bike.
It seems to be down to the motor detecting that acceleration/speed do not correlate with their pre-set values

 

[xsurfy]

Only use that flow app to change something on the motor... after that ... delete the app. if i ever need to do something, install it again.... and repeat. don't like spyware tracking me ;-)

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Nope, disabled the Flow app, even took out the GPS tracker device that came with the bike.
It seems to be down to the motor detecting that acceleration/speed do not correlate with their pre-set values

Are you certain the speed sensor isn't faulty?
I only say, as I had a similar issue, which I thought was being caused by the speedi, but turned out to be the speed sensor.
The dealer needed to update their own software before they could clear the error, replaced the speed sensor and it;s been fine since.
What kind of riding do you do? Any commuting with sustained high speed in high gears?

 

[cakepanda]

Are you certain the speed sensor isn't faulty?
I only say, as I had a similar issue, which I thought was being caused by the speedi, but turned out to be the speed sensor.
The dealer needed to update their own software before they could clear the error, replaced the speed sensor and it;s been fine since.
What kind of riding do you do? Any commuting with sustained high speed in high gears?

It's a cargo bike so only used for short journeys and not at sustained high speed.
As far as I can tell, the speed sensor is fine. The speed never jumps around or is erratic. The bike shop did a diagnostics and couldn't find fault with the sensor.
It is possible that the Speedi magnet is not as powerful or close enough to the speed sensor compared to the factory original. I had shimmed the sensor to be about 2mm closer, but still got the error.
The bike shop didn't seem to get any more detailed information as to why the error occurred, they only get the information that there is an error so sadly cannot see what the software flagged as the cause.
I suspect that the system logs speed and acceleration data and if there are enough erroneous readings, it causes the fault. I do tend to accelerate quite fast most of the time.
Maybe I should replace the speed sensor anyway, but I am not planning on reinstalling the Speedi as now every time there's an error, it's off to the bike shop which is not very close.
I'm tempted to install a Volspeed, and only activate it when absolutely needed.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

There was a company selling the same thing as the Speedi but before Speedi came on the scene. He stopped selling them because I think he could not gaurantee that Bosche and other companies would eventually work out what speedi was doing something like your not hitting the speed limited enough or something like that.

Yep, that'd be me and my replies a couple of posts above. In fact, I never ever started selling them them for Bosch. I tested a PLANET3 with a 1,5:1 ratio on a Mondraker Crafty RR and I believe I was the first person to have their hands on that bike (EU wide) as it was before official release. For 2 days it worked fine even with a 3:1 PLANET3 device. Then the errors started but it wasn't limp mode, it was just a speed sensor error because Bosch hadn't implemented anything regarding Limp mode back then. Over the next couple of months those updates came but I never sold one device because it was untested. Then a customer from the UK asked and I said he can try on his own responsibility and I sent him a device that had a 1,6:1 ratio. It was fine for 400 miles and then he got a limp mode error. Then we tried a 1,4:1 ratio device as he was very friendly with his bike shop and that one caused a limp mode within 500-600 miles. Then I said we're not doing a PLANET3 for Bosch because I saw in the software that they have pre-defined gear ratios for the motor. Most of the time it's not a problem, but if you spend enough time in low speed pedaling outside of what's "possible" or within their range - you are inevitably getting a limp mode error. However, when someone goes and copies a product and starts mass-producing and marketing it, then things like long term testing take a back seat. Both Shimano and Bosch shouldn't be attempted with a mechanical derestriction device. Stick to chips for Bosch (but better made, smarter ones - like PLANET3-E - which is not yet available for Smart System but it is for older Bosch connector types up to CX Gen4 Non-SS) OR stick to eMax Tuning for Shimano as it's the most elegant and best supported solution out there. I don't care that it's a competitor's product - it's the best for Shimano and I have no problems recommending it.