How many motors have you blown? 2019 levo only

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

Be interesting to see the users above who have failed motors if their bike is derestricted or now

I can tell you right away that mine is. But I can also tell you that this doesn't matter in the slightest. The relationship between power requirement and "speed" doesn't change as substantially (for speeds we ride at) as the relationship between power and inclination. If you don't believe me, beacuse why would you - go have a test for yourself using BLEvo which can tell you instantaneous power outputs of the motor and your power inputs on the pedals. Try riding it below the speed limit on a flat piece of road and then 40-50% above the speed limit in the same situation and then get back to us with your findings on how many more Watts the motor is pushing out. Then compare this with the power output when you're climbing anything steep in any gear you'd like. These motors are failing due to an issue caused by Brose in their manufacturing of plastic parts in the interface between the plastic planetary gearset and the belt pulley/bearing.

 

[Maastricht]

Be interesting to see the users above who have failed motors if their bike is derestricted or now

I think the terrain (much climbing) and support setting (Turbo maximum power and torque) will make a big difference on the stress on the drivetrain and not if the bike is derestricted. Derestriction only has a minor impact according to my feeling. Motor automatically reduces power if heat increases above a certain level. But all is speculation.

If the failure rate really becomes too high, I can not imagine Specialized would let all of us down. They have to think about their reputation so at this moment I am not really concerned.

 

[HORSPWR]

This thread has cured me of ever wanting to buy a Levo!

 

[Koo]

Be interesting to see the users above who have failed motors if their bike is derestricted or now

nope.

-K

 

[McInner1]

This thread has cured me of ever wanting to buy a Levo!

That's just because you're misjudging what's posted on the forums.
For example, if you read the Garmin Edge 1030 forum, you think "hands off" - but the problems described there are usually in front of the device. In fact, it's the hottest sports navi on the market.

And the Levo is the hottest e-mountainbike on the market!

 

[Jamsxr]

It seems motor failures are a problem across all the manufacturers, it’s clealry happening more than it should.

All the talk and reports of failures has definitely tainted my interest in the sport, I’m not looking to drop thousands on another eBike until things have improved. I also hope my motor lasts outside the warranty period as it’s such a fun bike...

One the plus side, my eBike helped me rekindle my love for normal MTB riding and I’m loving being back on my trail bike, my next purchase will be a conventional MTB ?

 

[Bearing Man]

It seems motor failures are a problem across all the manufacturers, it’s clealry happening more than it should.

As the owner of Performance Line Bearings I repair more than my fair share of ebike motors. We repair most makes of motors, including Brose.

What we have noticed is that each make of motor has its weak point, but it is usually only one weak point! Bosch, it's the lack of water tight seals (Now addressed on the Gen 3 motor). Yamaha, it's the lack of seals and a noisy drive gear. But with Brose there seems to be 5 main weak points!

1, Brose fitted a lovely water tight seal to cover the right-hand crank bearing, but water still enters the left-hand bearing.
2, Water regularly enters the needle roller bearing between the crankshaft and the sprocket carrier. (This is normally when you hear of people complaining that their pedals are stiff to turn backwards) Sadly, if this is not addressed quickly, it tends to destroy the bearing surface on the crankshaft.
3, There are two clutch bearings inside the motor called sprag bearings, one works when you pedal, one works when the motor assists. The bearings Brose use have plastic cages to keep the sprags in place. These plastic cages crack and the bearing starts to fail. (This normally manifests itself by a slipping sensation through the pedals and sometimes noise and notchy feeling through the pedals.
4, Drive belt tensioner failure. This is where the drive belt tensioner actually snaps, shortly followed by the belt stripping. (Felt as instant failure and loss of drive)
5, Drive belt stripping. (Normally felt as a soft bumping or jumping sensation through the pedals, shortly before all drive is lost).

Before you get too disheartened, please bear in mind that there are thousands and thousands of these motors out there, doing exactly what they should be doing, with no problems.
And Specialized have a great warranty attitude. And, when you're out of warranty we are here to help.

 

[HORSPWR]

That's just because you're misjudging what's posted on the forums.
For example, if you read the Garmin Edge 1030 forum, you think "hands off" - but the problems described there are usually in front of the device. In fact, it's the hottest sports navi on the market.

And the Levo is the hottest e-mountainbike on the market!

Not at all, 4 motor failures for one person should be enough to cure any one!

 

[Bryan Wells]

here is the thing, It's specialized, they help us out pretty damn well... they are as quick as they can be given supply, and help out without question for most of us. So with that, i'm not stressing it on my levo, just having fun. a lot. of. fun!

 

[Dirtnvert]

As the owner of Performance Line Bearings I repair more than my fair share of ebike motors. We repair most makes of motors, including Brose.

What we have noticed is that each make of motor has its weak point, but it is usually only one weak point! Bosch, it's the lack of water tight seals (Now addressed on the Gen 3 motor). Yamaha, it's the lack of seals and a noisy drive gear. But with Brose there seems to be 5 main weak points!

1, Brose fitted a lovely water tight seal to cover the right-hand crank bearing, but water still enters the left-hand bearing.
2, Water regularly enters the needle roller bearing between the crankshaft and the sprocket carrier. (This is normally when you hear of people complaining that their pedals are stiff to turn backwards) Sadly, if this is not addressed quickly, it tends to destroy the bearing surface on the crankshaft.
3, There are two clutch bearings inside the motor called sprag bearings, one works when you pedal, one works when the motor assists. The bearings Brose use have plastic cages to keep the sprags in place. These plastic cages crack and the bearing starts to fail. (This normally manifests itself by a slipping sensation through the pedals and sometimes noise and notchy feeling through the pedals.
4, Drive belt tensioner failure. This is where the drive belt tensioner actually snaps, shortly followed by the belt stripping. (Felt as instant failure and loss of drive)
5, Drive belt stripping. (Normally felt as a soft bumping or jumping sensation through the pedals, shortly before all drive is lost).

Before you get too disheartened, please bear in mind that there are thousands and thousands of these motors out there, doing exactly what they should be doing, with no problems.
And Specialized have a great warranty attitude. And, when you're out of warranty we are here to help.

Have you diagnosed shinamo steps problems? Any plans for parts and/or a vid?

 

[Swissrob]

As the owner of Performance Line Bearings I repair more than my fair share of ebike motors. We repair most makes of motors, including Brose.

What we have noticed is that each make of motor has its weak point, but it is usually only one weak point! Bosch, it's the lack of water tight seals (Now addressed on the Gen 3 motor). Yamaha, it's the lack of seals and a noisy drive gear. But with Brose there seems to be 5 main weak points!

1, Brose fitted a lovely water tight seal to cover the right-hand crank bearing, but water still enters the left-hand bearing.
2, Water regularly enters the needle roller bearing between the crankshaft and the sprocket carrier. (This is normally when you hear of people complaining that their pedals are stiff to turn backwards) Sadly, if this is not addressed quickly, it tends to destroy the bearing surface on the crankshaft.
3, There are two clutch bearings inside the motor called sprag bearings, one works when you pedal, one works when the motor assists. The bearings Brose use have plastic cages to keep the sprags in place. These plastic cages crack and the bearing starts to fail. (This normally manifests itself by a slipping sensation through the pedals and sometimes noise and notchy feeling through the pedals.
4, Drive belt tensioner failure. This is where the drive belt tensioner actually snaps, shortly followed by the belt stripping. (Felt as instant failure and loss of drive)
5, Drive belt stripping. (Normally felt as a soft bumping or jumping sensation through the pedals, shortly before all drive is lost).

Before you get too disheartened, please bear in mind that there are thousands and thousands of these motors out there, doing exactly what they should be doing, with no problems.
And Specialized have a great warranty attitude. And, when you're out of warranty we are here to help.

Have you had the chance to open up a non Specialised Brose motor? I would be curious to know if these problems are universal or Specialised has different internal specifications.

 

[Jamsxr]

That's just because you're misjudging what's posted on the forums.
For example, if you read the Garmin Edge 1030 forum, you think "hands off" - but the problems described there are usually in front of the device. In fact, it's the hottest sports navi on the market.

And the Levo is the hottest e-mountainbike on the market!

Lol unlike normal MTB I think there’s far too much focus in the eBike world of “my bike is the best” just take each bike on its merits and ride.

 

[Bearing Man]

Have you diagnosed shinamo steps problems? Any plans for parts and/or a vid?

I have just opened a Shimano E7000 and found out why they fail. It would be an easy fix but sadly, they are not repairable without considerable risk to the circuit board. We will not currently be repairing the E7000 . I just hope the E8000 is not also a fit and throw away motor!

 

[Jamsxr]

I have just opened a Shimano E7000 and found out why they fail. It would be an easy fix but sadly, they are not repairable without considerable risk to the circuit board. We will not currently be repairing the E7000 . I just hope the E8000 is not also a fit and throw away motor!

Please let us know once you’ve pulled apart the 8000. I would assume they use a similar platform so it doesn’t bode well..

 

[Bearing Man]

Have you had the chance to open up a non Specialised Brose motor? I would be curious to know if these problems are universal or Specialised has different internal specifications.

All the Brose motors I have seen are the same internally, regardless of what they are fitted into.

 

[Bearing Man]

Please let us know once you’ve pulled apart the 8000. I would assume they use a similar platform so it doesn’t bode well..

Will do. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Pukmeister]

Peter, does the Yamaha seal issue you have witnessed relate to the recent PW-X motors or just the earlier PW motors? I can live with normal motor noise (I actually like it as a bit of feedback for motor load and an indication of when to take it easy).

I never jetwash my bike, just a hand wash and low pressure rinse off with a garden hose sprayer (whilst avoiding bearings and the electrics.)

Glad I don't own a Brose after reading the above. I'm paranoid enough already.

 

[Bearing Man]

Peter, does the Yamaha seal issue you have witnessed relate to the recent PW-X motors or just the earlier PW motors? I can live with normal motor noise (I actually like it as a bit of feedback for motor load and an indication of when to take it easy).

I never jetwash my bike, just a hand wash and low pressure rinse off with a garden hose sprayer (whilst avoiding bearings and the electrics.)

Glad I don't own a Brose after reading the above. I'm paranoid enough already.

The PW-X Motors are just starting to come out of warranty now, so we will be adding them to our services soon. Saying this, the amount of times we get asked if we can repair them, I would say the issue is still there.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

Before you get too disheartened, please bear in mind that there are thousands and thousands of these motors out there, doing exactly what they should be doing, with no problems.
And Specialized have a great warranty attitude. And, when you're out of warranty we are here to help.

This is all well and good and you can keep a positive attitude as a consumer because you don't know better, or as a repair shop who's livelihood depends on the fact that the cycling industry feeds us all overpriced crap that we gladly pay for since it brings happiness into our lives.

HOWEVER, let's not forget the following: there are things in this world that actually work. Not only that. There are things that have to work right away and perform on the edges of their design envelope. If anyone had the "pleasure" of designing a racing gearbox for let's say unlimited class of hillclimb racing, you'd know that even things that come out of Quaife or Sadev are not all that great and they malfunction, break, wear out etc. People take this just as a constant in their life and pay and pay and pay. But, if someone is actually good at their job - every aspect of their job, from the design phase to the manufacturing of a single prototype that has to last at least a few seasons and win races - it can be done and it's not as expensive as one might imagine, or at least it's not so much more expensive than what you would otherwise buy for the same purpose. The safety factors for certain components of one gearbox are actually 0.8, otherwise it'd just be too heavy for racing.

There are also very small companies making very complex products for fields of application where literal lives depend on it - underwater diving for example - where you have a combination of mechanical/pneumatic and electrical assemblies inside a device which has to work under pressures ranging up to 500 atmospheres and more and be completely air and water tight while still operating flawlessly. This does not cost millions. Doesn't even cost that many thousands.

Stop being sheeple and thinking "it's all going to be fine". If the cycling industry was regulated in almost any way as the car industry for example: a) many people would be out of a job or in jail; b) things would work much better much more of the time.

Arguing that there are thousands of motors out there doing just fine while some people are on their 3rd or 4th motor in the same bike is not doing anyone any favors. Either these people are going to be struck by lightning real quick or there's an issue in the production of the motors and everyone is just waiting for theirs to fail. I firmly believe it's the latter, especially since this bike hasn't been sold for even a year and most people haven't put the mileage on it yet.

 

[Mikerb]

Some good points but I do not fully agree with your analysis. I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that all of the motors have limitations in their design that are exposed or accentuated by degrees and types of use. I am astonished by the mileage some do, the temperatures some ride in and the type of riding some do considering the Levo is a trail bike. The wear and tear of other components is accepted as normal but the difference is that most are within the scope of DIY. We are still at the stage where motors are a non maintainable sealed unit. You can pay nearly the equivalent cost of a motor for a set of forks and they need servicing every 50 hours.....and its no bother to diy or get a lbs to do that.
Of course the manufacturers are not going to suggest any limitations on use of an e bike compared to its analogue equivalent and lots of claims about its added capability but that is not the reality.
I hope the time comes when motors are serviceable/repairable items with lbs able to perform some jobs and specialists like bearings man available to do the rest. Meanwhile I think the best approach is to be aware of the way the motor is constructed and treat it accordingly and be reassured by the 2 year warranty. If it needs a new motor after that....well its about the same cost as new tyres all round for my car...and they only last 25k miles

 

[Fivetones]

Funnily enough there’s another discussion about this in depth here:

How long will your EMTB last you? - EMTB Forums

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

-.-

Mike, point is that it shouldn't be like this even with suspension components. What we're given in the mtb world is really utter crap compared to racing technology that has been around since the '80s in rallying. Yes, dropping the lowers and changing the bath oil and re-greasing the seals should be done as regular maintenance, but maybe not in the hours they claim. However, me personally witnessing MULTIPLE FOX 36 forks that had a myriad of problems such as creaky steerers and stanchions due to improper press-fit calculation, threads for the damper in the stanchion being cut in at a slight angle and the damper not being concentric - producing immense friction and stiction feeling, plastic IFP being wrongly tolarated for the 204 quadring (oversized by a few hundreths of a mm) again resulting in stiction city, new GRIP2 dampers not having a hardstop designed into the HSC/LSC adjusters, having the wrong number of clicks compared to the specification etc etc. It's not much different with shocks: IFPs installed improperly (too deep or too shallow), overtightened assemblies, wrongly pressed in bushings, oversized pins that don't even allow sliding contact which is their whole purpose. Most of the consumers just don't notice these sorts of problems. The manufacturers of course count on this, because every 50th or 100th person is going to be like ME and call them on their bullshit and they'll replace it under warranty. It's all in the calculation. But why people tolerate this kinda behavior and problems on a 1400 EUR fork or a 800 EUR shock is beyond me - but as long as we keep buying, the manufacturers have no incentive to change.

Also, please let's not compare tires for your car to EMTB motors. It's wrong on so many levels which should be so obvious that I shouldn't even need to tell you. Comparing a tire with a tire makes me want to kill myself. I pay almost the same money for 1 mtb tire that loses side knobs and wears out within 1-3 months of riding as I do for a car tire that does 3-4 seasons without issues. Compare motors with motors. If your car needed a new motor every 2 years you'd be HELLA PISSED.

 

[Mikerb]

I am not disagreeing. I raced cars for over a decade and a lot of the prep work was dealing with poor manufacture and/or design. Engine components impossible to machine because they were so far out from blueprint etc. My point is they are what they are and you can either howl at the moon or work within the limitations. Knowing what those are likely to be is a good starting point. My tyre comparison was one relating to cost due to wear. Its a performance car and I accept the cost v performance. Even if you do not wear them down a tyre now has a recommended max life of 5 years regardless. They are all after our money!!

 

[Dirtnvert]

I have just opened a Shimano E7000 and found out why they fail. It would be an easy fix but sadly, they are not repairable without considerable risk to the circuit board. We will not currently be repairing the E7000 . I just hope the E8000 is not also a fit and throw away motor!

Thanks. Best of luck with the 8000. Maybe some day in the future youll have your own motor design to swap into these bic pen motors

 

[Tom Noyes]

This thread sounds like a competition...I wonder what the point of it is. LBS are not allowed to strip the motor so it is interesting that folks seems to know what their motor issue was when the only people who would know are the Specialized warranty team. Also strange that one person can have repeated motor problems whilst clearly the vast majority have none. So is it the motor, the LBS that assemble the bike, or the user?

It's the motor!

 

[55plusmxinsanity]

Shoot, anyone care to share if they have taken the motor apart and give their thoughts on DIY repairs?

 

[Maastricht]

Shoot, anyone care to share if they have taken the motor apart and give their thoughts on DIY repairs?

Besides Bearing Man I doubt if someone has taken the motor apart as everyone still has at least one year of warranty.

 

[seamarsh]

Before you get too disheartened, please bear in mind that there are thousands and thousands of these motors out there, doing exactly what they should be doing, with no problems.
And Specialized have a great warranty attitude. And, when you're out of warranty we are here to help.

I tend to disagree with this thought because... you would be surprised how many people buy bikes and do not really ride them, there are a lot of garage queens out there! lot of people who are riding them but not putting huge miles or stress on them.

These forums have multiple stories of people having multiple motor failures, on the same bike!.. if what you said was true above then why multiple failures under same owner.. just bad luck? dont think so.

 

[Mikerb]

I tend to disagree with this thought because... you would be surprised how many people buy bikes and do not really ride them, there are a lot of garage queens out there! lot of people who are riding them but not putting huge miles or stress on them.

These forums have multiple stories of people having multiple motor failures, on the same bike!.. if what you said was true above then why multiple failures under same owner.. just bad luck? dont think so.

So you agree it is the type of rider/user that typically experiences problems.!!!

 

[Bearing Man]

I tend to disagree with this thought because... you would be surprised how many people buy bikes and do not really ride them, there are a lot of garage queens out there! lot of people who are riding them but not putting huge miles or stress on them.

These forums have multiple stories of people having multiple motor failures, on the same bike!.. if what you said was true above then why multiple failures under same owner.. just bad luck? dont think so.

I fully understand your scepticism, it was the same with Bosch 6 months ago. The forums were full of people complaining about failures, but no one was looking at the real statistics. Don't get me wrong, I am not standing up for the manufacturers but if you take out the people who stop in the middle of a river crossing, jet wash their motor, suffer repeated pedal strikes, lay their bike on its side to clean it, carry it on a canted car rack, etc, etc. This will balance out the "garage queens".
So, what you're left with is a couple of hundred very upset people out of the thousands or in fact millions of people who own Brose motors.
I have already stated that Brose may have a few Achilles heals and as it's fitted to the Specialized range, one of the most popular bikes in the EMTB world! It stands to reason there will be a majority of failures reported all in one place.
The sad thing is, the owner does not get any feedback as to why their motor failed. If the manufacturers came back and asked if you have suffered a pedal strike, because they found your motor had a snapped belt or tensioner.
It would be so much better if the owners could report exactly what had failed on the forums and why. The failures caused by genuine motor issues would be seen clearly by all and the manufacturers would, if the numbers stack up, have to address it. And, the failures caused by owners would start to disappear as people learn't what can hurt their motor.