How long will your EMTB last you?

[Peaky Rider]

This one
You should have called in for a brew, I had a nice ride up the Goyt valley, over Derbyshire bridge to Buxton the over the old road, lovely weather.

We parked at the Cat & Fiddle to do that exact ride, after dropping down into the Goyt Valley past Errwood Hall(The Buxton circuit in one of the old guide books). Was really looking forward to it and to calling at the Bridge Cafe. Wanted to see the reservoir as I never saw my wife for three days whilst that scare was on as she is with the police.

Bloody E-MTBs.

P.S. Nice video.

 

[Peaky Rider]

The challenge for these motors is being the first to be super small so that the emtb is closer to a normal bike.

There are many trade offs to this. Not least thermal but also size of bearings etc

Some do better than others but I wonder if the Yamaha is bigger physically so has lower heat density?

Nice theory except, as I explained in my earlier post, my mates Yamaha motor is now back at the dealers.

 

[Fivetones]

Nice theory except, as I explained in my earlier post, my mates Yamaha motor is now back at the dealers.

Yeah, true. The Yamaha seems to be a little more reliable as a (self reported!) trend in this thread though.

The Yamaha actually isn’t huge either, which further discredits the theory.

The best eMTB motor you can buy | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

 

[33red]

I’m assuming E8000?

Is there something about the packaging of the motors within certain frames?

Yamaha motors are mostly pretty big and clearly most bikes with them have space around the motor (long chainstays ). Is this a factor?

I am very low on the knowledge side of tech stuff etc...
Just my view with 61 years on this planet. 45 years ago i got a moped the brand was Mobylette the other brand popular in Quebec was velo solex. They were kind of small motorcycles the cathegory was under 50cc. So at 16 years old there was no range issue, pedal use the throttle you choose. Riding in minus 30, minus 35 was fun skidding on ice.
Now 61 my Ebike is kind of similar with a twist, ya i have a Yamaha.
Now people buy bling, NEW but my 2017 has 3770kms simply pedal recharge, no bling.
No need for updates, no need for upgrades it is way beter than most 2020, it keeps on rolling.
I am no kid, i do not buy into new = better. No need for some cellphone.
I have no car so Reliable is important, others well you can read .....
Yamaha motors are not new, not bling on wheels, they are not marketing, they are motors.
Why people buy motors that do not work?
Ask them.
I demoed a Norco, liked the feel, short chainstay. But the Shimano needs to prove reliability before i give a dollar for it. They asked 8,000$ canadian with 15 % tx on top, i would hate if it was not reliable.
Are you a gambler?

 

[33red]

Nice theory except, as I explained in my earlier post, my mates Yamaha motor is now back at the dealers.

Is it a Giant?

 

[Fivetones]

I am very low on the knowledge side of tech stuff etc...
Just my view with 61 years on this planet. 45 years ago i got a moped the brand was Mobylette the other brand popular in Quebec was velo solex. They were kind of small motorcycles the cathegory was under 50cc. So at 16 years old there was no range issue, pedal use the throttle you choose. Riding in minus 30, minus 35 was fun skidding on ice.
Now 61 my Ebike is kind of similar with a twist, ya i have a Yamaha.
Now people buy bling, NEW but my 2017 has 3770kms simply pedal recharge, no bling.
No need for updates, no need for upgrades it is way beter than most 2020, it keeps on rolling.
I am no kid, i do not buy into new = better. No need for some cellphone.
I have no car so Reliable is important, others well you can read .....
Yamaha motors are not new, not bling on wheels, they are not marketing, they are motors.
Why people buy motors that do not work?
Ask them.
I demoed a Norco, liked the feel, short chainstay. But the Shimano needs to prove reliability before i give a dollar for it. They asked 8,000$ canadian with 15 % tx on top, i would hate if it was not reliable.
Are you a gambler?

Pure nonsense. Your Yamaha motor was once what Yamaha almost certainly claimed at the time, state of the art. I dare say what you might call ‘bling’.

My Shimano works fine. No-one buys a bike that ‘doesn’t work’. That’s a ludicrous thing to say.

 

[twistgripper]

I worked in the fitness industry 20+ years, just as DC motor powered treadmills were really becoming popular. Even the high end brands initially were putting motors and controllers that were ~30-50% under powered by today's standards. I suspect it may be the same with e-bikes - we need bigger motors with beefier bearings/gears etc & higher amp controllers...not for the extra power but for durability. Hopefully the manufacturers realize this sooner than later.

 

[Zimmerframe]

their windscreen wiper motors aren't too bad

There's your answer and swap the unit in with the mechanism and you'd never get home sick .. 2 foot forwards, 2 foot back .. 2 foot forwards.. 2 foot back ..

Sorry to hear about your motors .. It sounds a bit like you've been using sand or crushed granite as a lubricant (on the bike...) ..

 

[33red]

Pure nonsense. Your Yamaha motor was once what Yamaha almost certainly claimed at the time, state of the art. I dare say what you might call ‘bling’.

My Shimano works fine. No-one buys a bike that ‘doesn’t work’. That’s a ludicrous thing to say.

I bought the first front wheel drive from Toyota years ago.
It never had any issue.
They sold it when they knew how to build it.
When Yamaha built that 2017 they knew how to build it.
I bought it in dec. 2018 and i asked before buying.
No Kool-Aid was involved.

 

[Rusty]

How many of those 40-50 analogue bikes were in the same price band as the eBikes?

Very few.
There are some analogue MTB over $10K NZD and more than a few road bikes in that range but except for kiddies bikes the biggest selling range is $1200 - $2400 NZD with an entry level ebike there about $3500.
Their money is made on volume - even though the eMTB has a higher price and a bigger dealer margin. That is because they need to spend more time with new customers going through things and more time is needed on the first free service.

 

[wepn]

what bikes do u have ? and how often do you clean lube .ect? any services ?

None of the bikes that I clocked up big mileage on had derailleurs and so service really was minimal apart from chain lube, etc. The first was an Optibike more than 10 years ago along with 2 mates on different continents replaced the derailleurs with Rohloff Speedhubs - about 56,000 km on that & still going strong when I sold it.

The others were Stealth off-roaders one with a 9 speed gearbox - around 50,000 km - still have it but in need of a new battery. The other Stealth has a Schlumpf 2 speed and is undead - over 100,000 km & still going strong on its second battery though likely in need of a replacement battery soon. Who would've thought you can stay fit with a 5 kW hub motor. Great bikes.

 

[createthis]

I don’t ride religiously or anything, but I have 500 miles on my 2015 felt dual-e. I just upgraded to 11 speed replacing the cassette, chain, shifter, derailleur, and chain ring for about $270, not including tooling costs. My drivetrain is completely refreshed.

The Gen 2 Bosch motor should last another 500 miles I think, before I start hearing gear noise. After that, there is a gear replacement kit for about $120. I’ve watched the install video. It‘s pretty straight forward.

The motor itself is easily removable, so complete replacement should be straight forward too.

Eventually the battery will wear out, but with my 11 speed drive train I can still use the bike without the battery, so I’m not super worried about it. Just buy another one when the time comes.

It’s a bike. And a pretty nice one, albeit a bit heavy. I’m confident it’ll still be operating fine in 2025.

 

[Cyclopath1000]

I would imagine that water,sand and mud need to not get into motor.. there are still some significant water running high in the Sierra's and two weeks ago on the hole in the ground I really went out of my way not to immerse my motor. It's hard to shoulder pack a 52 lb bike. I suspect contamination is a reliable method to need a new motor.

 

[Beekeeper]

I would imagine that water,sand and mud need to not get into motor.. there are still some significant water running high in the Sierra's and two weeks ago on the hole in the ground I really went out of my way not to immerse my motor. It's hard to shoulder pack a 52 lb bike. I suspect contamination is a reliable method to need a new motor.

Yes for sure, I’ve seen online pictures of Bosch internals with noise issues and when they open them up there is rust everywhere. Water has clearly entered the box.
I know the motors are fairly water resistant but at the end of the day these bike are not amphibious ? ?

 

[DrStupid]

While looking into motor warranties, I did find something that seemed somewhat off (this normally means I'm confused, and dont know it yet).


1. Shimano warranties its motors for 2 years. This seems reasonable.

Quoted from Shimano webpage

"How long is the warranty valid?

Shimano provides a 2-year warranty for all STEPS components beginning on the date it’s purchased."


2. Yamaha warranties the motors in their own ebikes for 3 years. This seems even better.

Quoted from Yamaha webpage.

"Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles gives you peace of mind by standing behind your purchase with a limited warranty that covers the drive unit, battery and frame for 3 full years. Ride confidently knowing Yamaha has you covered! To learn more continue reading below for all the details."


3. Giant will warranty a Yamaha motor in it's bikes for 1 year.


Quoted from Giant webpage.

"7 Legal documentation 7.1 warranty

Warranty of one year for electronical equipments such as:
•RideControl display & buttons
•SyncDrive motor
•EnergyPak battery; Per year, a loss of no more than 20% of its original nominal capacity at a maximum of 300 charges. •Wiring The maximum permissible total weight (bike, rider and luggage) for our E-bikes is 156Kg (344lbs)."

What's up with the short Giant warranty on Yamaha motors? Did I miss something?

 

[33red]

While looking into motor warranties, I did find something that seemed somewhat off (this normally means I'm confused, and dont know it yet).


1. Shimano warranties its motors for 2 years. This seems reasonable.

Quoted from Shimano webpage

"How long is the warranty valid?

Shimano provides a 2-year warranty for all STEPS components beginning on the date it’s purchased."


2. Yamaha warranties the motors in their own ebikes for 3 years. This seems even better.

Quoted from Yamaha webpage.

"Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles gives you peace of mind by standing behind your purchase with a limited warranty that covers the drive unit, battery and frame for 3 full years. Ride confidently knowing Yamaha has you covered! To learn more continue reading below for all the details."


3. Giant will warranty a Yamaha motor in it's bikes for 1 year.


Quoted from Giant webpage.

"7 Legal documentation 7.1 warranty

Warranty of one year for electronical equipments such as:
•RideControl display & buttons
•SyncDrive motor
•EnergyPak battery; Per year, a loss of no more than 20% of its original nominal capacity at a maximum of 300 charges. •Wiring The maximum permissible total weight (bike, rider and luggage) for our E-bikes is 156Kg (344lbs)."

What's up with the short Giant warranty on Yamaha motors? Did I miss something?

Cool, i still have 28 months covered.

 

[Rusty]

While looking into motor warranties, I did find something that seemed somewhat off (this normally means I'm confused, and dont know it yet).


1. Shimano warranties its motors for 2 years. This seems reasonable.

2. Yamaha warranties the motors in their own ebikes for 3 years. This seems even better.

3. Giant will warranty a Yamaha motor in it's bikes for 1 year.

What's up with the short Giant warranty on Yamaha motors? Did I miss something?

Personally i don't really worry about the warranty period. Down here in NZ they have something called 'The Consumer Guarantee Act' which over-rides any warranty. With a $6000 and up eMTB
($7600 & $9000 in my case) if I had a failure within 3 years I would take a quick note of various documented failures on the web for my brand then advise my supplier that if not rectified I will contact my lawyer as the devices obviously was 'Not Fit For Purpose'.
Had to do this with a Giant CF frame that failed and the distributor claimed it was crash damage. The crack was on the underside of the top bar - virtually impossible to damage. A F1 CF guy reckoned that the frame had been handled before being top coated without gloves as the area was the size of a thumb print. His guess was the guy had either handled some machinery, or more likely had a sandwhich for lunch and did not wash hands before returning to the production line.
The minute the Giant importer was advised of my action they offered a complete bike replacement.

Know your rights - and always stand up for them.

 

[Rusty]

Yes for sure, I’ve seen online pictures of Bosch internals with noise issues and when they open them up there is rust everywhere. Water has clearly entered the box.
I know the motors are fairly water resistant but at the end of the day these bike are not amphibious ? ?

The two things I have observed in the last few moths
1. Every ebike motor I have looked at would be considered seriously lacking in the water sealing department.
2. The bearings I have noted being used are way below the quality/rating standard I would expect to see on such an expensive item. Kind of reminds me of the original Japanese MX bikes where they used plastic swingarm bushings .... not up to par for the application.

I am not a designer and only a self taught mechanic but having played with some cad-cam software and a 3D printer I am positive I could design something much better.
Am actually looking for a totally trashed motor that I can pull apart and see where I would need to start on design. Think I could re-learn my old sand casting skills and build something.

 

[R120]

For me the biggest problem is that the motors cannot be locally serviced in the majority of cases, and that any issues tend to mean a lengthy delay in getting he bike back on the trails as the motor is sent back to the manufacturer for warranty.

I have now been without my E-Sommett for nearly 10 weeks, and I am pretty sure that any half component mechanic could have fixed the motor by replacing the relevant parts in under an hour.

Whilst bike companies are jumping on the Bike bandwagon as they see it as the current bicycling goldrush, the infrastructure to maintain the bikes isn't in place yet to anything like a satisfactory level.

 

[Rusty]

I have now been without my E-Sommett for nearly 10 weeks, and I am pretty sure that any half component mechanic could have fixed the motor by replacing the relevant parts in under an hour.

frack that - after 10 days I would be clamouring for my money back.

 

[Pukmeister]

My Giant warranty is for two years, lifetime for frame.

 

[33red]

Do not worry.
You are not being abused by some bike companies.
They all do it.
They eliminated countries with free trade so they can hide in some limbo, away from taxes, away from jail.
They killed the humans, the consumers and just focus on bank accounts.
Seriously you agreed to automatic withdraws from many.
Painlessly you pay every month even when you sleep, even when you are dead.
They grab money and pretend it is legal because you are too busy, because it would take too much money, too much time.
You bought into the single ring.
You bought into the dropper.
You bought into the brand name and kool-aid.
An electric motor is not new, i know i am 61.

 

[Fivetones]

I expect there’ll be a boom in services (example on here is @bearingman) that specialise in quick turnaround exchange under either warranty or, if you’re outside of that, refurbs.

Car turbos are one example of this (alternators another). Usually a couple of days turnaround.

 

[Jamsxr]

Do not worry.
You are not being abused by some bike companies.
They all do it.
They eliminated countries with free trade so they can hide in some limbo, away from taxes, away from jail.
They killed the humans, the consumers and just focus on bank accounts.
Seriously you agreed to automatic withdraws from many.
Painlessly you pay every month even when you sleep, even when you are dead.
They grab money and pretend it is legal because you are too busy, because it would take too much money, too much time.
You bought into the single ring.
You bought into the dropper.
You bought into the brand name and kool-aid.
An electric motor is not new, i know i am 61.

Seriously, they’re not all out to get us ? however, they are here to make money first, although that does not excuse substandard components.

It’s a frustrating situation but in my experience we really shouldn’t be shocked, there are an abundance of high-end MTB parts that don’t live up to the job - look a Fox and RockShox suspension, the chances are that at some point the steerer and/or stanchions will start to creak - it’s only taken 3 months and 1,000 miles for it to happen on my eBike.

Personally I don’t want more power etc.. on the next generation of EMTB motors, I just want improved reliability. I would hope this is something Shimano, and all the others, address.

 

[R120]

To be fair getting 16 months out of a component like a BB would be good going for me, I would factor in on my normal bikes that I get through one BB a year due to all round riding and the conditions I put it through. The frustrating thing is that if need a new BB, I just go down the lbs and get one, whereas with a motor we are not yet in that position, whereby you can pop down and get the relevant part, or have the lbs do it.

I know some of the Specilized dealers will swap out your motor on the same day, but that's not going to be a model that's sustainable with he demand we are now seeing, unless the manufacturers up their game.

 

[Pukmeister]

I think the whole EMTB market needs a shake up in terms of support, there are so many tales of woe on here from folk who have paid a lot of money and received service that is clearly lacking. Most notable are the two cases I have recently read about of a direct-to-consumer brand where the dealers have seen more of the bikes than the owners and taken ages to get their act together.

I can't vouch for my own chosen brands longer term reliability or support yet as I have owned it just a few short weeks. Thus far my dealer has been excellent however and I have every confidence in them to stand by their product whilst under warranty and hopefully beyond.

In the longer term, perhaps in future there will be a service exchange scheme in place whereby you can return your particular brands faulty motor or problematic parts to your agent and swap it out for a warrantied refurbished unit for a fee once out of warranty?

 

[DrStupid]

My Giant warranty is for two years, lifetime for frame.

This seems strange .. why would Gaint have warranties that vary by street address?

Also, has anybody bought a spare motor for there Giant ebike? Whats it cost?

I can buy a shimano motor on Amazon or Ebay, so I'm not too worried about availability, but Gaints lack of prices or part numbers online continually gives me the creeps.

 

[DrStupid]

From this article, it seems margins are better for ebikes (as most here guessed) but not crazy better than regular bikes.

~20% of sales (ebikes), drives margin up 1.3%.

Also, the artical lists the constraint to be ebike specific components. Could this be driving the reliability issues, as motor manufactures rush to make demand while sacrificing quality?


E-bikes to carry momentum into next year: Merida - Taipei Times

 

[33red]

Here in Montreal, Quebec it seems dealers of Shimano and Giant are told:
unscrew + ship
i do not think your mecano neighbor will be helpfull they will say touch it and no more warranty. They are simply poorly designed by their vast team of engeneers if you are into Kool-Aid.

 

[Pukmeister]

This seems strange .. why would Gaint have warranties that vary by street address?

My dealer verbally quoted me two years. I could have sworn my user manual had a page amendment slip in it that corrected the warranty section to two years which I would have scanned and posted up on the forum, but typically I can't find it now so ignore my earlier comments until I can prove otherwise.