Yep. Mine makes the same noise with the chain off. But is silent with it on. Are people riding these bikes with the chain off ?
Avinox M2s rattle
- Thread starter Rob209
- Start date
I did. The interesting part is that it started rattling suddenly mid-ride.
In my case it sounds just the same with the chain on while going downhill, it rattles like crazy. It was dead silent for the first 399km and suddenly started rattling like this mid-ride yesterday
So leave the chain on, and pull the chain backwards and forwards, whilst holding the cranks still, if you are trying to recreate riding conditions. All you are proving in your video is that the planetary gear has backlash. Rattle when descending comes from when chain growth rotates the chainring backwards and forwards under suspension travel.
You won't get warranty with that video. And as it's making that noise when riding. You need to re-create riding conditions, so you can show them the issue and get it fixed.
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I think this video recreates the real conditions, I took the shock off so it's easier to press down. Rattles just the same: - YouTube
Better video. My bike does not do that. I bounce my bike like that and the cranks do not move. Wow, the kinematics of that bike is not pretty. Huge kickback.
Is that the original hub in the rear wheel ? Must be super high engagement.
No, it's hydra2. It originaly came with dtswiss 350. I like the sound and the engagement, but not the kickback for sure. I'm thinking about ochain once they release for avinox, I have ochains on all my bikes, they're great
Wow yeah. 870 points of engagement. Mine has 40 .....
It's a dtswiss 350 clone.It's looking like the Avinox M2S has a problem with high engagement hubs. The kickback is breaking that anti-rattle gear they added, IMO.
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Yes, exactly that. All bikes and geometry will invoke that to some extent. My px pro seems to have less kickback when the suspension moves but occasionally it does the odd rattle. Def not like the PL pro which rattled all the time. The point being it’s not a fault with the M2s motor, they ALL have kickback, maybe some have more grease than others and need bed in time but some kickback rattle is in the design. There is zero evidence or rationale to say the M2s should be silent - disappointing as that maybe for some.
The anti rattle gear is not on the planetary gears, only on the larger ring gear. The planetary gears have nothing other than a material change and tighter tolerances, nothing mechanical to stop rattle.Wow yeah. 870 points of engagement. Mine has 40 .....
It's looking like the Avinox M2S has a problem with high engagement hubs. The kickback is breaking that anti-rattle gear they added, IMO.
You could be right. The rattle could be coming from the kickback causing so much travel in the cranks. I would fit a lower engagement hub, and see if the problem is greatly reduced.
I agree with this logic, but the marketing from Avinox said that they eliminated the kickback rattle, so it's kind of a feature. If they would have put a disclaimer that "high engagement hubs are not compatible with the m2s" it would be fine, I wouldn't have put Hydra2 on my bike, but they did not say such things. The fact that the bike was dead silent for the first 399 km and suddenly started rattling tells me something broke inside. I even took the same bike down "The 10%" DH section in Morzine and there was no rattling at all, I could only hear my tyres break traction.
I agree the marketing was pointing to no kickback, but I think that actual statement was taken from the statements someone from Avinox made in a video rather than something written down ?, I might be wrong. My M2s didn’t rattle at all in the fist 2 rides then clearly the grease thinned and things bedded in, when the motors arrive my guess is they are packed with grease on the gears, over time that moves and allows the movement. Also I notice the odd noises I get are more prevalent on a hot day which makes sense in terms of expansion and tolerance. If yours sounds like the others with kickback I would be surprised if something had broken, but you should try a warranty claim if you think it’s failed. But everything here indicates even a replacement will have kickback rattle either straight away or after bedding in
New motor developing the same issue is a possibility for sure. I'll do more testing today or tomorrow. Yesterday with a hot motor towards the end of the ride I think I noticed that the tone changed quite a bit, it was unnoticeable before. It's similar to one of the videos in this thread, when the assist is off there's no sound, when it's on sounds rough
The bike was sold with 36, 54 or 72 point engagement hubs. You did modify it to 870 points of engagement. That's a very big change. I specifically chose the 40T ratchet hub, instead of the 60T, exactly to reduce kickback. My bike is also High Pivot. Helping further.
If you can put the DT Swiss hubs back. This will let you know if something is broken, or whether the excessive kickback is causing the noise.
I hope you can get it sorted. Let us know how it turns out.
slickrock
Well-known member
MTBs that have concentric wheel paths have zero suspension activated kickback. But any bike with floating instant center will have chain growth, with some systems (e.g. HP) having less than others. What's often more the bigger culprit is not kickback, as much as chain whipping effects. As long as you have a chain (instead of a belt), this will be an issue. This why the Ochains and Sidekicks of the world have purchase as much as they do.
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slickrock
Well-known member
So where is the slop then? In the prior video he was moving the crank back and forth with the chainring not moving, showing tons of it right on the cranks. But your comments and other videos describe slop at the chainring (pulling the chain back and forth). There's the internal freewheel that allows the cranks to rotated backwards with moving the chainring. And the chain ring can smoothshift with moving the cranks. Where is this primarily occurring based on your seasoned experience with the M1?
Correction on my end, the bike came with DTSWISS 370 Hybrid hubs which has 20 degrees of engagement. Hydra2 has 0.41 degrees. The important part to understand about 20° hub is that the engagement is not consistent and depends on the position of the pawls / ratchet when yo put the pedal down. This is why producs like Ochain, e13 sidekick or DTSwiss deg df hub works because they provide consistent feel.The bike was sold with 36, 54 or 72 point engagement hubs. You did modify it to 870 points of engagement. That's a very big change. I specifically chose the 40T ratchet hub, instead of the 60T, exactly to reduce kickback. My bike is also High Pivot. Helping further.
If you can put the DT Swiss hubs back. This will let you know if something is broken, or whether the excessive kickback is causing the noise.
I hope you can get it sorted. Let us know how it turns out.
Commencal also sells just the frame with motor and battery and I can put any wheel with any hub on that frame. I'll report back once Commencal replies to my emails
Looks like slop in the take up of the one way clutch ? But yes I agree. It does look excessive compared with the tiny bit of slop I get when I remove my chain, and perform the same action.
Can I add. The dual mesh, split gear, linking the parallel gears will remove any slop between these gears. It won't remove any slop further into the gearbox. I'm not saying this is the problem here, because of the amount of slop. But this configuration will not remove all rattle.
Anyone who thought it would, doesn't understand the function of this the dual mesh, split gear. It removes slop between the gears I have highlighted. But no further.
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20 degrees is only 18 points of engagement. Maybe there's a kinematic reason they chose such a low engagement hub.
I know the float is variable with a low engagement hub, but low engagement is certainly recommended for downhill and enduro.
Still, if Avinox's trick is to use an ultra-low engagement hub to mask the inherent rattle, that's less than ideal.
I get there are products that reduce pedal hub engagement and therefore reduce PK. They certainly have their place.
But reasonably fast engagement hubs still provide a meaningful advantage for a trail or AM bike.
I'd also add that tomas_hit apparently rode some miles on the I9s before the rattle began, which aligns more with the theory that it's just a matter of time before the rattle begins for lots of riders. The riders who don't experience rattle eventually may ride too gently, may be deaf, maybe never get the miles, maybe just got lucky? I don't know.
I get there are products that reduce pedal hub engagement and therefore reduce PK. They certainly have their place.
But reasonably fast engagement hubs still provide a meaningful advantage for a trail or AM bike.
I'd also add that tomas_hit apparently rode some miles on the I9s before the rattle began, which aligns more with the theory that it's just a matter of time before the rattle begins for lots of riders. The riders who don't experience rattle eventually may ride too gently, may be deaf, maybe never get the miles, maybe just got lucky? I don't know.
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I have an Orbea Wild LT on order and will be building a set of wheels for the bike. I am planning to use Chris King hubs, which are high engagement. It sounds like there are more issues with the higher engagement hubs. I am really wanting to try the Chris King hubs, but this thread has me questing those hubs vs. something like the DT Swiss Hybrid.
I’ve owned a Shimano EP8 bike, Bosch CX Gen 4 and a TQ50 bike. That TQ motor is an incredible price of machinery. I am not expecting the Avinox to compete with that in terms of noise, but I certainly hope it is better than the Shimano or Gen 4 Bosch.
I’ve owned a Shimano EP8 bike, Bosch CX Gen 4 and a TQ50 bike. That TQ motor is an incredible price of machinery. I am not expecting the Avinox to compete with that in terms of noise, but I certainly hope it is better than the Shimano or Gen 4 Bosch.
Avinox didn't build the bike. Nor did they fit the low engagement hub. But with any motor fitted to a bike with that sort of kick back. I would fit a low engagement hub. And the bike builder does.
I mean, the bike owner didn't say he fitted a high engagement hub till I asked about why the bike was producing so much kick back. So it was very obvious the bike had lots of kickback, and it was fitted to a high engagement hub, which I found extremely unusual. Hence me asking about the hub.
If the bike's kinematics doesn't create large kickback. Then it's probably OK to run a higher engagement hub. Also. The PX is a trail bike. My Flux is a Super Enduro. It's whole purpose is to run on super chunky downhill terrain. So I'm going to help the bike, motor and myself out by running low engagement hubs. It's literally the first thing I changed.
The result is, 600km in, and my bike runs quiet. But as I said. There is some backlash. And if I take the chain off and move the cranks backwards and forwards quickly, whilst holding the chainring. It does make a sound. But I do agree that the bike in the video, probably has something broken, as my one way clutch does not allow that much play. The one way clutch shown below.
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sethimus
😠 Temu Gary 😠
part number 6937224154544
So you think it's just the dual mesh is worn ?
Any motor that's easy to buy parts for (so users can resolve issues themselves) would be fantastic.
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