Is the Power War over ? Is 1500 peak watts, 150Nm, the new benchmark ?

[Astro66]

With the Chinese heavy weights of Gobao and Avinox releasing new concept motors at Eurobike at exactly the same power level. 1500 peak watts. 150Nm. Is this going to be the new standard from the previous 750 peak watts, 100Nm ?

I'm hoping it is. But I also hope this is the limit. At 1300 watts peak. My M2S motor has thrown up a temperature warning when I pushed it really hard, that my M1 at 1000 peak watts, never did.

I just don't need temperature limitations when I'm riding. Keep the peak power at a level these 250 watt rated motors can handle, without having to warn the rider, he's pushing too hard.

BTW. As I know this will create some polarising views. Can we accept there will be different opinions, which is fine. Just play the ball. Not the player. Thx.

 

[xtraman122]

We’re definitely at (Or a little past) the point where the power is downright silly and stops feeling like an assisted bike and more like a motorcycle with pedals. I’m not one to advocate for limits/regulations, but I think we’re pretty much at a limit of what’s even practical at this point. I’d rather we just get comfortable with the limits we have and not need any new “rules”.

The innovation at this point needs to pivot to battery energy density and drivetrains (eCVTs/MGUs/etc). We’ve gotten enough power out of the motors at this point for what’s practical, now we need to work on refining it (Noise, reliability, weight) and working on those other components around it imo.

 

[Astro66]

Indeed. I'm hoping we can put the whole peak power thing to bed. I would not argue having 1500 watts regulated as the peak allowed. I certainly have zero desire to get the 1500 watt version of the Avinox motor. The M1 at 1000 watts was plenty. I'm really not noticing the extra 300 watts I have in my 1300 watt M2S motor.

From a practical point of view. A 250 watt rated motor, just isn't going to give satisfactory performance, if you run it any harder. As I am discovering with the M2S at 1300 watts peak.

I do believe we have hit the limit of a 250 watt rated motor.

 

[urmom]

>motorcycle with pedals

Electric motorcycles are great (both the city and enduro kind)

Electric bicycles are great.

New categories (like the e-scooters) emerging are great too.

But I think products designed for legal loopholes are not. Silly torque destroys bicycle trails. Unfit & unskilled riders going way to fast on cycling infrastructure where children are. It leads to bans that affect everyone. Example: My city no longer allows ebikes on public transports (because hard to specify: non-shitty-ebikes), as shitty aliexpress bikes went up in flames. The usual Bosch batteries are as safe as those of cellphones & laptop computers, but now we cannot take the commuter rail out of the city anymore, which was a nice way to start a bike tour. Some places started banning ebikes (or all bicycles) on trails altogether.

 

[Brawwp]

Oh god not another one of these threads. lol.

 

[Bndit]

Nobody needs more than 750w on a bicycle, or more than 100Nm. Let`s leave it there. If more is needed, buy a motorcycle.

 

[Leakintheboat]

Those numbers are only part of the story.

The software Multiplier is the biggest issue, not 1500watts or 150nm.

For reference the Avinox has 800% of input.... thats why it feels so easy and in return uses alot of watts.

On release, if it came out with 400% like the bosch and others had, it wouldve been anther Befang Chinese motor.

 

[Brawwp]

Nobody needs more than 750w on a bicycle, or more than 100Nm. Let`s leave it there. If more is needed, buy a motorcycle.

Thanks bro. I was unsure what I needed.

Is that what I need because that’s what you have? Why not 85nm?

 

[irie]

Thanks bro. I was unsure what I needed.

Is that what I need because that’s what you have? Why not 85nm?

@Bndit lives in Finland whereas you live in Hawaii. Never the twain shall meet.

 

[Brawwp]

@Bndit lives in Finland whereas you live in Hawaii. Never the twain shall meet.

Great point. So why speak for everyone? “Nobody needs”. I was happy with m1 power. I’m also very happy with M2s power. Do I want more, no. But if someone else does then go for it. It’s not my call on what you want.

To the OP, I do think we’re about at that limit for sure on emtb. Most of us aren’t using it. I don’t want less than the M2s now though.

 

[Astro66]

Nobody needs more than 750w on a bicycle, or more than 100Nm. Let`s leave it there. If more is needed, buy a motorcycle.

EMTB Manufacturers are telling us that releasing a new EMTB without one of the new +1000 watt peak power motors, means sales are super sluggish. Meanwhile ...... put one of the new +1000 watt peak power motors in, and the EMTB sells out.

EMTB riders want the option to have more peak power, when they need it. And the new concept motors and EMTBs, tell us that figure is 1500 peak watts and 150Nm.

It's pointless telling riders you only need 750 watts peak, if the majority of buyers today want the ability to access more. They have and will just buy elsewhere.

 

[Astro66]

I always was a Shimano Motor guy. I loved how the Shimano Eco-System worked together. Especially when you combine a hard-wired Linkglide electronic transmission to a Gen 2 Shimano motor.

But I owned one of these beside a new generation +1000 watt peak motor, and my riding ability vastly improved on the new motor. It was devastating to realise, I was going to have to move away from Shimano. But if the legacy motors want to keep dictating to EMTB riders, what they think you want. You cannot keep supporting them.

If Shimano brought out an Avinox equivalent motor, on a carbon weight enduro. I would have jumped at it. But to win me over now. They need to do this with a +1000 peak watt ECVT MGU. And they just cannot develop quick enough, before the market moves on.

 

[Mankra]

Silly torque destroys bicycle trails. Unfit & unskilled riders going way to fast on cycling infrastructure

Same song, like few years ago: Bio vs E-Bike.....

 

[Paulquattro]

Oh god not another one of these threads. lol.

Yet your here again

 

[Paulquattro]

So why speak for everyone? “Nobody needs”.

There's a difference between wanting and needing

 

[NATUXE]

Personne n'a besoin de plus de 750 W ni de plus de 100 Nm sur un vélo. Arrêtons-nous là. Si vous avez besoin de plus de puissance, achetez une moto.

Je vais te rappeler que tout le monde n'est plus au top avec la santé plus l'age et que cela te permet de refaire ce que tu est devenu incapable de faire. La puissance est une nécessitée. Que tu ne veux pas faire de la moto et que tu souhaite profiter de la nature

 

[pagheca]

actually I never rode an e-bike different from my 85Nm / 250 W Trek. I'm more interested in range than power.

My question is: how does it feel a 1500 peak watts, 150Nm ebike? Is that "so" different? How often do you use this additional power? And how much do you really ends up needing it?

At the end, 1500 Hp are just 2 Hp, but is also true that while a Vespa 50 (4 Hp) weights 115 kg (plus gasoline) vs. the 20-25 kg of an e-MTB, although when you add up to the persone and dress and accessories (90-100 kg), the ratio is (25+100)/(115+100) = 0.58, while the power, including the pedal is 2,2 / 4 =0,55.

So, at the end.... it's like driving a Vespa Primavera 50... but only at peak power. Certainly not the average motorbike. While torque is different because Vespa max torque is MUCH lower and not constant.

 

[Paulquattro]

I'm going to remind you that not everyone is at their peak anymore, due to health issues and age, and that this allows you to do things you've become unable to do. Power is a necessity. You don't want to ride a motorcycle and you want to enjoy nature.

I dont want a war but 100nm of torque and the gearing on an MTB is more than enough to get pretty much anyone that is capable of riding a bike on any terrain they feel capable of doing surely .

 

[Moderator]

Oh joy ...

Is this going to be the new standard from the previous 750 peak watts, 100Nm ?

BTW. As I know this will create some polarising views. Can we accept there will be different opinions, which is fine. Just play the ball. Not the player. Thx.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could limit answers to yes,no,maybe ?

Counting the number of posts before it becomes an argument about pineapple on pizzas.

 

[Mankra]

My question is: how does it feel a 1500 peak watts, 150Nm ebike? Is that "so" different? How often do you use this additional power? And how much do you really ends up needing it?

At first: All we need is air, water and food!

Bikes, with or without motor is a think, we want !
Bike sales are emotional, not rational.

1500W or 150NM is far away from a motorcycle. I helps, to have fun uphill or you can drive uphill trails, what you earlier can´t. It makes fun, to try new trails step and difficult uphills.
The next point is that you have to distinguish between power and force!

High torque combined with insufficient power means that the assistance decreases as your cadence increases. The bike then feels heavier than it actually is.

With the M2S motor, as you’d expect from a BIO Bike, you can ride at a higher cadence without the assistance dropping off. Whether it’s 70 or 100 rpm, you get the same level of assistance. This makes a big difference to the natural riding experience.

I use boost nearly never, Turbo for real step uphils or at the Bikepark get many Runs.

 

[Astro66]

before it becomes an argument about pineapple on pizzas.

I don't think a single reviewer has said a negative thing about the peak power of the Gobao MGU. And there has been very little talk of it in Social media.

I think the industry is accepting the new peak power numbers. So it's probably time we stopped arguing about it, and just got on with riding the new technology, or keep riding your old EMTB.

My point. The War, and hence argument, about peak power is behind us. The MGU is now the next disruption and argument point.

 

[Paulquattro]

The MGU is now the next disruption and argument point.

To hell it is , not when someone has brought up pineapple and pizzas in the same sentence

 

[pagheca]

Counting the number of posts before it becomes an argument about pineapple on pizzas.

Please, never use that comparison. There are some Italians on this forum...


STANDARD DISCLAIMER: Mine it's a joke. I'm a firm believer in absolute freedom and creativity in the kitchen (and in life in general). The only rule is that your artistic expression shouldn't become someone else's punishment. So by all means, make it, just don't expect me to eat it....

 

[MeatBike]

Counting the number of posts before it becomes an argument about pineapple on pizzas.

...or to make it relevant, pedals on a Surron

 

[Fangs2k]

The War, and hence argument, about peak power is behind us. The MGU is now the next disruption and argument point.

This is the bit I don’t get, why does it even need to be an argument, as opposed to say a ‘reasoned discussion’?

If the power argument is ‘behind us’, why have you brought it up again?!

 

[Astro66]

If the power argument is ‘behind us’, why have you brought it up again?!

To be 100% honest. It was brought up in this guys youtube video today as one of the 10 biggest EMTB stories. I agreed. Wanted some feedback from this forum.

 

[Ndanger]

Why am I picking up on a classic logical fallacy

1. The Appeal to Silence (Argumentum ex Silentio)

The assumption is that because reviewers aren't actively criticizing the peak power, and social media isn't buzzing with complaints, it must mean the numbers are completely accurate and verified, a lack of criticism does not automatically equal definitive proof of truth.

2. The Bandwagon Fallacy (Appeal to Popularity)

The statement "I think the industry is accepting the new peak power numbers" implies that because everyone else is seemingly on board, you should be too. Group consensus doesn't make a technical spec true.

3. False Dilemma (Either/Or)

The final conclusion tries to force a choice: "stop arguing and ride the new tech, or keep riding your old EMTB." It completely shuts down a perfectly valid third option: having a healthy debate about claims.

Attempts to shut down legitimate skepticism repress the nature of independent thought, imo, by claiming "everyone else has moved on, so you should too."

 

[Mikerb]

For me all of the latest developments paint a bigger picture. I dont think many would argue that something around 100 nm and 600 watts is the sweet spot for performance , range and reliability....so not far off Bosch/Brose motors years back. So why the popularity of the power war? I think it reflects the influence of the media on consumerism. People are now conditioned to be impressed with product features and numbers most of which fall into the category of being being superfluous. Form has replaced function. Software control has replaced mechanical functionality.
The latest "treat" to tempt us is the Ecvt MGUs. They completely replace any direct connectivity between the rider and rear wheel.
The next step will be a robot that rides the bike for you whilst you just sit on the saddle

 

[Astro66]

Why am I picking up on a classic logical fallacy

1. The Appeal to Silence (Argumentum ex Silentio)

The assumption is that because reviewers aren't actively criticizing the peak power, and social media isn't buzzing with complaints, it must mean the numbers are completely accurate and verified, a lack of criticism does not automatically equal definitive proof of truth.

2. The Bandwagon Fallacy (Appeal to Popularity)

The statement "I think the industry is accepting the new peak power numbers" implies that because everyone else is seemingly on board, you should be too. Group consensus doesn't make a technical spec true.

3. False Dilemma (Either/Or)

The final conclusion tries to force a choice: "stop arguing and ride the new tech, or keep riding your old EMTB." It completely shuts down a perfectly valid third option: having a healthy debate about claims.

Attempts to shut down legitimate skepticism repress the nature of independent thought, imo, by claiming "everyone else has moved on, so you should too."

So I take from that, You don't think the power war is Over ? Hmmm ......... Maybe I should have just made the thread a poll ..........

 

[Fangs2k]

The next step will be a robot that rides the bike for you whilst you just sit on the saddle

The logical conclusion to that is that the robot goes out on your bike for a ride freeing you up to argue about bikes on the internets…