Avinox M2S: 1,500W, 150Nm, and a PR Offensive

[Heated]

You wrote on Tuesday that you will someday own an Avinox bike, but by Wednesday you had already bought one, had the frame replaced twice, sold it, and then bought a Trek?

Sorry, I shouldve been more clear, I ment an m2s avinox system

 

[cream]

The thing is this isn’t an avinox thread. No one should be trying to change anyone’s mind in here. You seem to be locked onto a sales pitch.

That's more like a happy customer pitch not a sales pitch. He's just enthusiastic about his purchase. Although, even with arguments, some minds can be changed and some cannot. If Avinox "fanboys"(customers, OEMs) numbers are rising fast on such a new brand, it might be something interesting there.I will soon have a personal opinion

In any case, some competition is always good. These days, Bosch is pretty much all there is left. Like Intel with shitty NetBURST processors until AMD64 got it right, then Intel pushed back with Conroe architecture.

Just chill a bit. Cycling is an amazing hobby for people to get out the house and help with fitness and mental health. That’s what a lot of us want to protect. Not close it off behind licenses and registration because a few manufacturers push the limits of the law too hard.

Can't remember being so with Haibike and Flyon's TQ HPR120S back in 2019/20. No worry about legal implication back then...I would worry about 2000W or more mopeds(that weight 2x as an eMTB built with no safety in mind), sold as ebikes all across Europe, including UK.

You could take your own advice. "Just chill a bit". Avinox is here to stay(like the Iphone), look at what happened after they entered the action camera market. It might be a disruptive/ agressive marketing strategy(not like altruistic BOSCH ) but they're not doing it just by words. I'd imagine plenty of meetings at Bosch ebike division

 

[Citylad77]

The best thing about DJI and Avinox etc, is that it will force some so called high end EMTB manufacturers and motor manufacturers to actually develop goods that are competitive it todays market place. Instead of just expecting loyal customers to there brand keep rocking up with debit cards for products that’s are basically dead and outdated out the box.

 

[Fangs2k]

The only issue I have with the Avinox system is the childlike simplicity with which they can be de-restricted. One of the reasons they’re so popular, that’s not me saying that, just witness the Facebook groups (and on here) from people panicking in case the latest firmware update geo-locks the bike.

There’s not even the low bar of having to spend a couple of hundred pounds to buy a derestrict device and bother to fit it to the bike.

If the motor system meets the rules/laws of the market that it’s being sold into then again I have no problem with it, but at some point the power/watts race will stretch that to incredulity in markets (like the UK and elsewhere) where a motor should be ‘250w nominal’ if it’s to avoid being treated like a moped/e-motorbike.

If nothing else comes from current developments it will be a review and/or tightening of that definition I think.

 

[Pilot_Dave]

I'm just against over-regulation. Regulators love to see something and slap a set of rules on it...often, based upon the loudest complainer or group.

As far as Avinox, I chose it in my new eMTB because it was a bit more future-proof than the older, more established motors. The M2S is smaller, lighter, and more powerful than the competition...that makes sense to me...it doesn't mean I have to use all the capability.

I'm using it in a boutique brand bike that I like, so I don't worry about Amflow's quality control.

My only complaint is dealing with an app...kills the experience a bit, unlike just throwing a leg over the bike...but once it's set up, not much of an issue. I only use the electronic "lock" and then I'm riding.

 

[Fugu]

 

[Brawwp]

This is Marin’s latest offering. Idk if I’d listen to their advice. I guess see how many of those they sell lol. Makes levo downtube look amazing compared to that thing.

Totally agree with them on getting out there and trying bikes out vs buying on paper. I know not everyone can do that, but definitely recommend before dropping $10k on a bike

 

[Heated]

The latest Marin and the previous Shimano one sold like hotcakes in NZ

 

[Brawwp]

The latest Marin and the previous Shimano one sold like hotcakes in NZ

Forreal? That’s good to hear. I haven’t really seen many. They gotta figure out that motor area though. You could fit a 125 dirtbike engine in that space lol.

 

[Fugu]

I mean he was basically saying it's really all about the bike not the motor output, but the industry is inevitably just going to chase big numbers because it sells bikes... All of which I agree with entirely. Most consumers aren't thinking about it that deeply; also marketing is very powerful and Avinox has been excellent at it.

Seemed pertinent to the thread.

Anyway, off for a ride on my brand new Bosch-equipped Orbea Wild

 

[Brawwp]

I mean he was basically saying it's really all about the bike not the motor output, but the industry is inevitably just going to chase big numbers because it sells bikes... All of which I agree with entirely. Most consumers aren't thinking about it that deeply; also marketing is very powerful and Avinox has been excellent at it.

Seemed pertinent to the thread.

Anyway, off for a ride on my brand new Bosch-equipped Orbea Wild

Maybe not motor output that matters, but the motor itself should absolutely be a high priority. You’re spending a lot of extra money for said motor. Thankfully now every motor has great bike options to go with it. I’m not saying motor is more important, but definitely is important.

The 1500watts is just annoying and all everyone talks about. Nobody talking about how amazing the power comes on, how natural, all the drivechain saving features, the traction control, etc. it’s just you guys saying you don’t need whatever power so I chose this other motor. You have a new bike so enjoy it, but in your next purchase def demo one. It may not be for you, but still, try it.

 

[Fugu]

Maybe not motor output that matters, but the motor itself should absolutely be a high priority. You’re spending a lot of extra money for said motor. Thankfully now every motor has great bike options to go with it. I’m not saying motor is more important, but definitely is important.

The 1500watts is just annoying and all everyone talks about. Nobody talking about how amazing the power comes on, how natural, all the drivechain saving features, the traction control, etc. it’s just you guys saying you don’t need whatever power so I chose this other motor. You have a new bike so enjoy it, but in your next purchase def demo one. It may not be for you, but still, try it.

I could have test rode if I wanted. Shop had new Amflows sitting right there next to the Orbea when I picked it up. I had a chuckle, and thought, imagine getting that instead... (that's my long travel 29er bias, and that I had a previous Wild and it's the only bike out of 8 that I've missed).

I know the M2S aren't all rattley, but for me currently it's still the possibility of getting a rattley one that stops me. Some certainly are, and I can hear it on POV videos. Avinox isn't swapping them for rattling. Look, each to their own; I know it doesn't bother many people at all and I'm 100% happy for them; but I like NO untoward noises from my bike. To the point I carry hydration, tools, everything on my back so it doesn't rattle. Noisy anything gets fixed or turfed immediately. It's a pet hate and I feed my pets well. I simply wouldn't trade a more powerful motor, even with easy derestriction, for the possibility of a rattle. Certainly not when there's no extra battery capacity to drive said more powerful motor. I would use the power on occasion but the rattle would be there ALL THE TIME.

Just got back from a ~70min ride in EMTB+ at 750/120nm on my Bosch. 51% remaining, and it was a short ride because my body is complaining about yesterdays ride and I know I want to ride tomorrow. Point is, when I'm up to doing full rides I'll be trimming the power output down from that. So really, there's just no point in more.

I love the feel of the motor, the bike is silent descending at speed over chunky stuff, it's just glorious. The Gen 5, such a polished, quiet and smooth piece of hardware. The 500C is sweet. I took the remote off the bars, configured EMTB+ and Tour+ only and removed the rest of the modes - and I'm a pig in shit.

Also, for me, there really isn't a comparable Avinox bike available here, not without significant hassle, wait time, and more $$$. I know they're coming, but they're not here now. I wanted 160+ and preferably full 29er with mullet option. Got all that with the Wild.

Maybe next year when the M3 comes out they'll make it properly disengage and have no rattle. By then, it might subjectively be the best motor for me. Maybe I'll grab an M4S Wild in 2028.

I'll detach from this argument now, it's all moot to me, decisions have been made. Wake me up when someone makes batteries the same size and weight >1KWh. That'll be a meaningful upgrade.

 

[Straker]

Part of me wants to go and get an M2S and be the prick that flies up the fire road at 25km/h. Because that’s what’s going to be happening, whether I do or not, so I might as well enjoy it. And it might be for a limited time...

I think Avinox are very shrewd marketers. They became the focus very quickly because of the torque and power numbers, and look at the number of OEMs on board now - a roaring success for their business. But it seems to me they did this by overstepping a gentleman’s agreement. Take Bosch for example - they were able to go from 85nm to 120nm just with firmware. So it seems like if they had been pursuing these sorts of big numbers when they made the Gen 5 or even Gen 4, they would have designed it differently and had bigger numbers - and thus be able to crank it up to even more now. Then those figures Avinox released with the M1 wouldn’t have been anything new.

It’s pretty obvious that blokes - the majority of eMTB users - like big power numbers. There’s an undeniable fact that “mines bigger than yours” sells - anything. It’s just the male ego. And Avinox capitalised on that. There might be a big price to pay, and not by Avinox in the end.

Seems the trail issue is definitely going to be a big issue in some places, like parts of the US. Will it be here? I dunno. We have issues with rampant teenagers on (non-EMTB) bikes tearing shit up. That’s going to come to a head at some point, and I wonder if we’ll end up caught up in that i.e. being hardcore policed, forced to comply, maybe even laws to confiscate non-legal bikes (completely believable in Australia).

There’s been plenty of times when I’ve been on a turbo ride in the forest, and I’m loving it, but the speed at which I’m catching and passing people feels pretty rude… afterwards. In the moment with adrenaline surging I’m just going for it. And I’m talking about on a 85nm speed restricted Bosch, and I'm heavy. If I had an Avinox I wouldn’t be obeying 25km/h. That’s just the reality. When I was 20 I drove every car like I stole it. It’s what I end up doing on an eMTB, being a kid again. I’m sure I’m not alone…

It would be awesome to see what Avinox could do shooting for lighter and 600w/80nm or something. I dunno, maybe it doesn’t get a whole lot lighter than the M2S anyway, in which case, why would they?

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It will also be interesting to see what Bosch does. I don't think people really appreciate how big and serious of an engineering company Bosch is. I think they weren't trying to make motors this crazy. And being EU they may still not.

Here in Aus you can freely buy ebikes that aren’t legal (not just EMTB, non-pedal behemoths) and they're everywhere. I can’t see it lasting, but it's not going to be real easy to police either. So the Avinox is just a fraction of that problem.

The gentleman’s agreement was a Bosch promoted preposition and a superb attempt at maintaining their market share. Unfortunately for them they failed to sustain their market dominance and the nascent cartel failed to maintain control.

 

[Fugu]

The gentleman’s agreement was a Bosch promoted preposition and a superb attempt at maintaining their market share. Unfortunately for them they failed to sustain their market dominance and the nascent cartel failed to maintain control.

2 sec ask of Claude. Hey, AI can be wrong. So can humans though, I guess

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Regulatory compliance / staying street-legal The primary driver was keeping e-bikes classified as bicycles rather than mopeds or motorcycles. In the US, the 750W limit is baked into federal law (the Consumer Product Safety Act's definition of a "low-speed electric bicycle"), and in the EU it's 250W continuous. Exceeding those thresholds means the vehicle legally requires registration, insurance, a license plate, and a driver's license — killing the core appeal of an e-bike.

Liability and safety Manufacturers didn't want to be seen producing vehicles that were de facto motorcycles but sold without the safety infrastructure (helmets mandated, licensing, road rules) that comes with them. A heavier, faster machine on bike paths creates serious liability exposure if someone gets hurt.

Trail and path access A big part of the e-bike market is off-road / MTB use. Land managers (national parks, trail networks) were already nervous about e-bikes on non-motorized trails. Manufacturers knew that if their bikes were obviously over-powered, they'd lose trail access entirely — so staying within the agreed power band was self-preservation.

Market legitimacy The industry was working hard in the mid-2010s to get e-bikes accepted by cycling culture, retailers, and regulators. A race to higher wattage would have muddied the "it's still a bicycle" narrative they were carefully cultivating.

In practice, the 750W figure is somewhat arbitrary anyway — torque and peak power matter more than nominal wattage ratings, and many motors technically exceed 750W in short bursts. The agreement was as much about the label and staying under regulatory radar as it was about hard engineering limits.

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I read that as "they were being sensible". It might pan out they were being "overly cautious". We have yet to see.

I take the angle of "Since the battery capacity can't really support it anyway, why risk the regulatory scrutiny and war over trail access?".

 

[emtbPhil]

Can't remember being so with Haibike and Flyon's TQ HPR120S back in 2019/20. No worry about legal implication back then...I would worry about 2000W or more mopeds(that weight 2x as an eMTB built with no safety in mind), sold as ebikes all across Europe, including UK.

You could take your own advice. "Just chill a bit". Avinox is here to stay(like the Iphone), look at what happened after they entered the action camera market. It might be a disruptive/ agressive marketing strategy(not like altruistic BOSCH ) but they're not doing it just by words. I'd imagine plenty of meetings at Bosch ebike division

You couldn't have picked a worse example - I own a DJI drone, have had 3 - and now you have have a license and registration - which I also have.

 

[Astro66]

Well ....... Whaddya know ....... He can climb trails with the Avinox M2S, that he was never able to climb before ...... And it's not about speed but controlling the power by going slow ........ And gaining skill .......

Gee ....... I wonder who else has spoken these exact words ....... Maybe ME ??? <shakes head>

Still knuckleheads going on about regulatory rubbish ........

 

[JP-NZ]

Well ....... Whaddya know ....... He can climb trails with the Avinox M2S, that he was never able to climb before ...... And it's not about speed but controlling the power by going slow ........ And gaining skill .......

Gee ....... I wonder who else has spoken these exact words ....... Maybe ME ??? <shakes head>

Still knuckleheads going on about regulatory rubbish ........

He's on an amflow with coloured spokes are you sure thats not you? haha

 

[Astro66]

He's on an amflow with coloured spokes are you sure thats not you? haha

I'm actually not a huge fan of Steve. I much prefer Neil. But when he rides the same motor as you, on a very similar bike, and says the exact same things I experienced. It does resonate.

I posted exactly what he said in this thread a week ago. So it's not just PR. We experienced the exact same riding improvements by riding with this motor. And that is the only point I was trying to make.

More peak power gives you more ability, just as more suspension does, or better tyres. It's just that simple.

 

[Fugu]

Well ....... Whaddya know ....... He can climb trails with the Avinox M2S, that he was never able to climb before ...... And it's not about speed but controlling the power by going slow ........ And gaining skill .......

Gee ....... I wonder who else has spoken these exact words ....... Maybe ME ??? <shakes head>

Still knuckleheads going on about regulatory rubbish ........

Firstly, it's literally a video sponsored by Amflow, a paid advertisement. I mean... just lol...

Secondly, who really gives a fuck? Win your local enduro race and I'll be impressed. Having the bike synthetically help you climb stuff... wow, that's soooo amazing.

Yours sincerely,

Knucklehead #45

 

[Heated]

Well ....... Whaddya know ....... He can climb trails with the Avinox M2S, that he was never able to climb before ...... And it's not about speed but controlling the power by going slow ........ And gaining skill .......

Gee ....... I wonder who else has spoken these exact words ....... Maybe ME ??? <shakes head>

Still knuckleheads going on about regulatory rubbish ........

Are you seriously quoting a Paid Advertisement?

 

[Brawwp]

Having the bike help you up climbs... wow, that's soooo amazing.

Isn’t the entire purpose of the motor to help you up climbs lol? I don’t think many of us needed help going downhill. I don’t get the harshness against everything Avinox. People say it’s got good control and works well for them on climbs, why lash out about that.

Look many Avinox riders in here say they love it for climbs. You think we’re all “fanboys” and biased. Every video is advertisement. Why so negative about Avinox? Just ride one!!! I’d love to hear your own thoughts good or bad. Better than the negativity with zero experience.

 

[Fugu]

Isn’t the entire purpose of the motor to help you up climbs lol? I don’t think many of us needed help going downhill. I don’t get the harshness against everything Avinox. People say it’s got good control and works well for them on climbs, why lash out about that.

Look many Avinox riders in here say they love it for climbs. You think we’re all “fanboys” and biased. Every video is advertisement. Why so negative about Avinox? Just ride one!!! I’d love to hear your own thoughts good or bad. Better than the negativity with zero experience.

The motor is to put mechanical effort in, instead of us doing it physically. Traction control to get up tricky stuff is what we're talking about, and no - it's not the whole point of the motor.

Sounds like the Avinox helps with climbing tricky stuff, especially for a user who isn't good at controlling traction themselves.

Cool.

I don't have an issue with the motor, I take issue with calling assistance ability though.

But I wonder why the fuck I'm still in this thread. I unwatched it

 

[n2o_spark]

Well ....... Whaddya know ....... He can climb trails with the Avinox M2S, that he was never able to climb before ...... And it's not about speed but controlling the power by going slow ........ And gaining skill .......

Gee ....... I wonder who else has spoken these exact words ....... Maybe ME ??? <shakes head>

Still knuckleheads going on about regulatory rubbish ........

At my state enduro series, I beat every avinox rider on technical climbs and i ride an old giant reign-e+. And not just avinox riders, I beat every motor/rider. Unless there is a flat open section, where i'll come 2nd or 3rd.
I don't think avinox really had that much advantage over other motors, and perhaps it's more bike geometry that's agreeing with you.

the new M2S is only 50g lighter than the yamaha (2.6kg).

The avinox system does have great control, but yamaha does too. Would i be faster on avinox? maybe, but there are other brands doing good things in terms of ride feel and control.
It's great your riding has improved, but you should probably pat yourself on the back more, than putting it down to the motor system.

 

[Brawwp]

It feels like people on this forum want Avinox to fail and want to hear that it sucks and want it outlawed and I don’t get it. Avinox has already lowered bike prices from other brands. It will inevitably help competition make better motors and batteries for you.

I hope so much that the next Bosch motor blows the avinox out of the water. Then I hope specialized does the same with their next motor. Why would you not want that? This is all good for us.

 

[Astro66]

Are you seriously quoting a Paid Advertisement?

I agree that EMBN are sponsored by Amflow. My point was that what they said in the Video. I posted exactly the same here in this thread, a week before the video was released.

So unless EMBN are reading this thread and using my posts as source material. Then the video is validation. Information validated by two completely unrelated sources. Validation was all I was attempting to do.

God forbid we post validations of any claims made on the internet.

 

[Astro66]

I hope so much that the next Bosch motor blows the avinox out of the water. Then I hope specialized does the same with their next motor. Why would you not want that? This is all good for us.

100% agree. It's about raising the EMTB bar. Not lowering it to accommodate the Lowest Common Denominator.

 

[Fugu]

It feels like people on this forum want Avinox to fail and want to hear that it sucks and want it outlawed and I don’t get it. Avinox has already lowered bike prices from other brands. It will inevitably help competition make better motors and batteries for you.

I hope so much that the next Bosch motor blows the avinox out of the water. Then I hope specialized does the same with their next motor. Why would you not want that? This is all good for us.

Honestly you might be being a bit sensitive about it.

- Avinox captured market by ignoring regulatory agreement and having numbers go up inducing e-erection in many
- There is a question about if that massive overstepping of power/torque is going to bring regulatory scrutiny where there was none before. Hence the PR release this thread is about, trying to head that off at the pass
- People have sworn allegiance to Avinox. It might do some things better, but it's not game changing for many of us, because it rattles and there is no increase in battery capacity to use the power meaningfully anyway.

The Avinox seems like a good option. If cool with rattling. It might be what you want more than anything else. But it doesn't have to be what I want more than anything else.

And it doesn't increase rider skill. Fundamentally, that's a retarded suggestion. Rider skill is a property of the person, not the bike.

 

[Brawwp]

Honestly you might be being a bit sensitive about it.

- Avinox captured market by ignoring regulatory agreement and having numbers go up inducing e-erection in many
- There is a question about if that massive overstepping of power/torque is going to bring regulatory scrutiny where there was none before. Hence the PR release this thread is about, trying to head that off at the pass
- People have sworn allegiance to Avinox. It might do some things better, but it's not game changing for many of us, because it rattles and there is no increase in battery capacity to use the power meaningfully anyway.

The Avinox seems like a good option. If cool with rattling. It might be what you want more than anything else. But it doesn't have to be what I want more than anything else.

And it doesn't increase rider skill. Fundamentally, that's a retarded suggestion. Rider skill is a property of the person, not the bike.

My m1 with miles on it doesn’t rattle. My M2s I don’t have much time on but so far no rattle. I think it also made me a better climber or at least I hit techy trails much better on my Avinox bikes than my previous Bosch and brose bikes. But you apparently know more than me so….

Look man why so negative though? I can sit here and tell you the Bosch is amazing because it is. I think the next Bosch will be even better and I hope it is! Why do you have to hate so much on Avinox when you haven’t tried it? Is it just out of reality to you that it’s possible you’d prefer it? You may not and that’s cool. But why be so sure about it based off what? Some people’s reactions on a forum that also haven’t ridden one??? Everything praising it is apparently paid ads and fanboys. Everything negative you take as gospel. There’s plenty posts on here about Bosch rattle, Bosch noises, Bosch failures. It’s not those things, but people have experienced it and have had issues too.

 

[JP-NZ]

Look man why so negative though?

No direct offence but its people like you bringing out negativity on here. This forum has become so bad in the last 12 months, I swear 90% of your posts are just spouting off about avinox I thought you said on the previous page you would give it a break...

You like avinox, we all get it already.

 

[Brawwp]

No offence but its people like you bringing out negativity on here. This forum has become so bad in the last 12 months, I swear 90% of your posts are just spouting off about amflow even when on the previous page said you would give it a break...

true.

I comment negatively when I see people talking bad about something they have zero experience on which has become extremely prevalent on this forum with Avinox. I am all ears if you rode something and give what you didn’t like about it. Ride one and tell me the motor sucks and your reasons and I can appreciate that feedback because it’s real and true to you. I do realize I talk a lot of crap after I see those comments though haha. Sorry about that! I’ll try to be more positive.