Does your motor meet the EN 15194:2017 standard

[Onetime]

So reading through the very detailed document of the EN 15194:2017 standard, (I have a copy), these points come up.
View attachment 185006
View attachment 185007
Based on these rules, it would appear that some motors don't meet these standards as they are too easy to tamper with. For example a VPN unlock would mean that the motor is not able to be sold in the EU as an EN 15194:2017 standard motor.

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Strange.

Plz F-off with all of the anti Avinox BS. How about getting a life? Stop worrying about what Avinox and all of their customers are doing and worry about yourself. Maybe go for a ride, try to have some fun and reflect.

 

[ZR1]

It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon.

His content is polarising the community by design, If your bike has more than 85nm 120nm / 400% 600% assistance then you are not mountain biking, you are a moto rider/ it's a cadence only system etc.

I was considering the edruid and he had an early ride video, he made the point that boost was ridiculous and like riding a moto, instead of turning it down and talking about other areas of the bike, he just kept it in turbo/boost saying it wasn't mountain biking.

Back on topic, I do wonder if avinox letting you choose your rear wheel size could technically fall foul of these rules, e.g. run a 29 rear wheel but select 27.5 wheel size on app could exceed assistance over the limit.

 

[irie]

you can self moderate,

Likewise.

 

[Fangs2k]

Likewise.

It was a general statement, not in any way personal, I’m sure you do self moderate the same as me.

But I mean, do you really want to have to wade through posts like #31?

 

[Fangs2k]

Back on topic, I do wonder if avinox letting you choose your rear wheel size could technically fall foul of these rules, e.g. run a 29 rear wheel but select 27.5 wheel size on app could exceed assistance over the limit.

I suppose it could fall foul of the anti tampering bit of the EN standard, but I don’t have a copy of them so don’t know the detail.

Most systems on the market have some kind of way of adjusting the wheel circumference though, which can give a little higher speed.

The way Bosch lock stuff like enabling light and power ports on the motor requiring a dealer visit/intervention drives me mad though, I’m sure that’s not in the regs!

 

[irie]

It was a general statement, not in any way personal, I’m sure you do self moderate the same as me.

But I mean, do you really want to have to wade through posts like #31?

Forums have a "cross section" of users, that's life.

 

[Valaminium]

Plz F-off with all of the anti Avinox BS. How about getting a life? Stop worrying about what Avinox and all of their customers are doing and worry about yourself. Maybe go for a ride, try to have some fun and reflect what a complete pearl clutching irrational angry woman on the rag you are being.

Calm down seems you are more hormonal than someone who is just quoting design requirements with reasonable suspicion. Are you a brand ambassador (or is IP address Chinese?) and were you like this about X-Box?

We all want ultimate performance, but whats happens if it forces regulation?
Similar has happened with non-pedalec/Surron and before you know it a bike costing 4-5k is worthless or can only be ridden on private land because a minority similar to those first time 911 drivers ruined it for others.
Now classed as motorised require registration and insurance.
If similar happens with pedelec it will be a sad state for those of us who don’t use cars/trucks to get to the locals…

We aren’t questioning anyone’s ability to ride, or being ‘anti-avinox’ its more a case of how many Karens on public trails and pushing pencils there are who don’t even ride bikes... the 750-1500w power struggle is giving them all the arguments they need particularly with the easy workarounds deliver that top speed double our current regulation.

As someone most annoyed by bureaucracy in an ideal world there wouldn’t be laws, but unfortunately this country is fast becoming more nanny state like the US (usually its following a potential revenue stream…) so I’d of thought most adults your side would relate to these concerns… remind me again of the states that recently changed their laws??

 

[Astro66]

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Because regulatory authorities do not get their android or apple devices and install VPNs when registering the motor, and then set the VPN to every country, then turn the wifi off, and do all the precise steps required to circumvent the region control.

They check if the speed limit or region control can be changed from the App, or from the bike. If it cannot. It is EN15194 compliant. It's not rocket science.

The original DJI motors were able to be region changed from a setting in the bike settings, meaning they failed EN15194 compliance. DJI patched this. And the motor passed EN15194 compliance.

If you believe your regulatory authority is not being thorough enough. Write them a letter. I'm sure they could use the extra toilet paper ........

 

[Onetime]

Calm down seems you are more hormonal than someone who is just quoting design requirements with reasonable suspicion. Are you a brand ambassador (or is IP address Chinese?) and were you like this about X-Box?

We all want ultimate performance, but whats happens if it forces regulation?
Similar has happened with non-pedalec/Surron and before you know it a bike costing 4-5k is worthless or can only be ridden on private land because a minority similar to those first time 911 drivers ruined it for others.
Now classed as motorised require registration and insurance.
If similar happens with pedelec it will be a sad state for those of us who don’t use cars/trucks to get to the locals…

We aren’t questioning anyone’s ability to ride, or being ‘anti-avinox’ its more a case of how many Karens on public trails and pushing pencils there are who don’t even ride bikes... the 750-1500w power struggle is giving them all the arguments they need particularly with the easy workarounds deliver that top speed double our current regulation.

As someone most annoyed by bureaucracy in an ideal world there wouldn’t be laws, but unfortunately this country is fast becoming more nanny state like the US (usually its following a potential revenue stream…) so I’d of thought most adults your side would relate to these concerns… remind me again of the states that recently changed their laws??

Ok, I’ll address this in chronological order. No, I’m not a brand ambassador and my ip address is in So Cal. I happen to own a Crestline Plaid with an M2s and I love it. It’s the best bike I’ve owned and I’m just tired of so many pearl clutching Karen’s who have never even ridden an Avinox powered ebike endlessly whining about it. Trying to get it restricted or banned. Wouldn’t you be pissed if people were constantly trying to get one of your favorite things needlessly banned? Next, I’ve always been a PlayStation guy, it’s just better and doesn’t self destruct.

Next, “would if it forces regulation?” It won’t if all of the people bitching about it just STFU! You’re actually bringing more negative attention to it when it’s not actually a problem! We are not the same as a bunch of hooligans on Surons. We’re not on the street causing havoc! No one actually notices when we’re on a MTB trail whether we have a Bosch or Avinox and how much nm or watts it has. Most of us are a bunch of middle aged or older fucks just out having a good time. And all of you minging whiners are raining on our parade. I think a large portion of it is just jealousy or ignorant paranoia. We’re not going to ruin trail access, but all of the notoriety just might. Right now, we’re kind of under the radar, but keep up with all this bs and you’re bringing negative attention to it and you might actually get what you claim to want to prevent. We don’t need more regulation, we need less. And lastly, you are being anti-Avinox, because you’re singling it out. You’re not complaining any other manufacturers making over 750w. You say you don’t want more regulation, while at the same time talking about how we should regulate the Avinox to less watts, nm and speed! WTF? Make that make sense. And lastly, just because you, (not you specifically) may have been a juvenile delinquent who couldn’t control your own impulses and self regulate, doesn’t mean the rest of the world is like that. There are bad apples in every segment of society, but that doesn’t mean we should all have to suffer for that. Those people should be dealt with on an individual basis. I’m off for a ride now.

 

[Fangs2k]

Because regulatory authorities do not get their android or apple devices and install VPNs when registering the motor, and then set the VPN to every country, then turn the wifi off, and do all the precise steps required to circumvent the region control.

Does any other motor manufacturer have such a back door? I can’t think of one, and looking around outside the bubble that’s EMTB you can see it’s one of the main attractions to the system, certainly here in the UK.

It’s not difficult to do, you know this yourself, and there’s details on how to do it on this very forum.

 

[Fangs2k]

Trying to get it restricted or banned. Wouldn’t you be pissed if people were constantly trying to get one of your favorite things needlessly banned?

Nobody on here is actively trying to ban anything, they’re just passing comment and sharing views the same as you.

 

[notaninfluencer]

Marin sum it up quite well, they can do what they want, but, they watch and wait, keeping things chill.

 

[simonali19]

They also made a bike that looks like a pregnant hippo with a prolapse which only 12 diehard Marin fans will buy.

 

[Brawwp]

One thing Avinox got right IMO is regional software control. It’s maybe just too easy to bypass which becomes the issue.

Why should we all have to suffer the regulations of EN standards? Not all trails and regions are created equal. There’s some random regulation thrown out there and every manufacturer is supposed to follow whatever is the strictest? Makes no sense. The push should be more for solid regional software control, not restricting everything to the same worldwide standard.

 

[richy]

You’re actually bringing more negative attention to it when it’s not actually a problem! We are not the same as a bunch of hooligans on Surons. We’re not on the street causing havoc! No one actually notices when we’re on a MTB trail whether we have a Bosch or Avinox and how much nm or watts it has. Most of us are a bunch of middle aged or older fucks just out having a good time. And all of you minging whiners are raining on our parade. I think a large portion of it is just jealousy or ignorant paranoia.

Based. The words I wanted to say, but because I purchased an Avinox bike I cannot even begin to express how I feel beyond "MoToR fAsT GOES BRRR". Too busy tearing up hill at precisely 28 mph ALL day. So thanks

 

[Valaminium]

Ok, I’ll address this in chronological order. No, I’m not a brand ambassador and my ip address is in So Cal. I happen to own a Crestline Plaid with an M2s and I love it. It’s the best bike I’ve owned and I’m just tired of so many pearl clutching Karen’s who have never even ridden an Avinox powered ebike endlessly whining about it. Trying to get it restricted or banned. Wouldn’t you be pissed if people were constantly trying to get one of your favorite things needlessly banned? Next, I’ve always been a PlayStation guy, it’s just better and doesn’t self destruct.

Next, “would if it forces regulation?” It won’t if all of the people bitching about it just STFU! You’re actually bringing more negative attention to it when it’s not actually a problem! We are not the same as a bunch of hooligans on Surons. We’re not on the street causing havoc! No one actually notices when we’re on a MTB trail whether we have a Bosch or Avinox and how much nm or watts it has. Most of us are a bunch of middle aged or older fucks just out having a good time. And all of you minging whiners are raining on our parade. I think a large portion of it is just jealousy or ignorant paranoia. We’re not going to ruin trail access, but all of the notoriety just might. Right now, we’re kind of under the radar, but keep up with all this bs and you’re bringing negative attention to it and you might actually get what you claim to want to prevent. We don’t need more regulation, we need less. And lastly, you are being anti-Avinox, because you’re singling it out. You’re not complaining any other manufacturers making over 750w. You say you don’t want more regulation, while at the same time talking about how we should regulate the Avinox to less watts, nm and speed! WTF? Make that make sense. And lastly, just because you, (not you specifically) may have been a juvenile delinquent who couldn’t control your own impulses and self regulate, doesn’t mean the rest of the world is like that. There are bad apples in every segment of society, but that doesn’t mean we should all have to suffer for that. Those people should be dealt with on an individual basis. I’m off for a ride now.

As a minging whiner - some things stood out from your rant and of what chronology? -
And - Where did I say I did or didn’t want regulation or as you put it >

‘You say you don’t want more regulation, while at the same time talking about how we should regulate the Avinox to less watts, nm and speed.

I wasn’t being manufacturer specific either, but showing concern for if it costs us all trail access or license/insurance mandates for public spaces regardless of what motor I’m riding … oddly enough this is an opinion shared with a lot of professional riders so are they pearl clutching too?

The bad apples argument is an obvious statement. I think we all realise performance products are driven much less responsibly when stolen…

Unfortunately everyone does get tarred with the same brush here in the UK (guilty until proven innocent nowadays)
The debate OP and successive responses on other posts too refer to the VPN loophole which is highly relative here and places more responsibility onto the manufacturer not its owner circumventing.
…as opposed to the choice by the owner to employ speed derestriction by either physical/inline IC sensor defeat or soft configured by region switching deemed solely the choice of owner and if proven with a coroners enquiry liability stops with the owner… here comes the regulation if a manufacturer doesn’t fix loopholes - its why regulations exist against imported vehicles.

UK Journalism blanket references ebikes, the average Karen doesn’t know a Suron from an mtb. Added exposure from examples like the VPN trick is more likely to get the unwanted attention most of us want to avoid. I’d say getting all word salad in response is more likely getting that attention…

 

[notaninfluencer]

As a minging whiner - some things stood out from your rant and of what chronology? -
And - Where did I say I did or didn’t want regulation or as you put it >

‘You say you don’t want more regulation, while at the same time talking about how we should regulate the Avinox to less watts, nm and speed.

I wasn’t being manufacturer specific either, but showing concern for if it costs us all trail access or license/insurance mandates for public spaces regardless of what motor I’m riding … oddly enough this is an opinion shared with a lot of professional riders so are they pearl clutching too?

The bad apples argument is an obvious statement. I think we all realise performance products are driven much less responsibly when stolen…

Unfortunately everyone does get tarred with the same brush here in the UK (guilty until proven innocent nowadays)
The debate OP and successive responses on other posts too refer to the VPN loophole which is highly relative here and places more responsibility onto the manufacturer not its owner circumventing.
…as opposed to the choice by the owner to employ speed derestriction by either physical/inline IC sensor defeat or soft configured by region switching deemed solely the choice of owner and if proven with a coroners enquiry liability stops with the owner… here comes the regulation if a manufacturer doesn’t fix loopholes - its why regulations exist against imported vehicles.

UK Journalism blanket references ebikes, the average Karen doesn’t know a Suron from an mtb. Added exposure from examples like the VPN trick is more likely to get the unwanted attention most of us want to avoid. I’d say getting all word salad in response is more likely getting that attention…

well said

Electric bikes and scooters - BBC News

All the latest content about Electric bikes and scooters from the BBC.

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if you look at this recent mainstream news, it supports your points.

 

[Fugu]

@notaninfluencer

"its clearly written into their code, if you run it through a disassembler you can see that."

Please post the disassembled code so we can see it.

Oh I have it handy

And before some smart arse has to say it, no that's not actually disassembled

 

[Petrex]

I can clearly see it now

Thanks

 

[notaninfluencer]

Oh I have it handy

View attachment 185258
And before some smart arse has to say it, no that's not actually disassembled

fun!

 

[Astro66]

Does any other motor manufacturer have such a back door?

It's not a back door. It's how Avinox comply with the different regional requirements.

My state regulators are one of the toughest on ebikes, and they are satisfied it complies with EN15194, and have certified bikes sold with this motor. All regulators to date are satisfied. Peeps need to get over it.

It's funny how every thread discussing Avinox has become two different streams. Those with new tech having the time of their lives. And those filling their nappies because they are being left behind.

There's one easy solution folks ....... Get an Avinox and join TEAM FUN .....

 

[Scott_123]

Marin sum it up quite well, they can do what they want, but, they watch and wait, keeping things chill.

Marin is not really in the EMTB world. Their bikes are heavy and look like a UPS truck. Not sure how Marin survives in this market but they are not really offering anything interesting or compelling.

 

[Fangs2k]

Why should we all have to suffer the regulations of EN standards? Not all trails and regions are created equal. There’s some random regulation thrown out there and every manufacturer is supposed to follow whatever is the strictest? Makes no sense. The push should be more for solid regional software control, not restricting everything to the same worldwide standard.

The simple answer is you don’t, but the EN standard is the one out there and your own country and regulators can of course completely ignore it.

It’s not being ‘forced’ onto anybody, it just exists and lots of manufacturers have coalesced around it.

You can already buy e-bikes that aren’t EN certified, you just can’t legally ride them on many trails and to use them legally at all requires licence, registration and insurance etc.

People seem to keep forgetting that we’re all from different parts of the world and so are talking from our own experiences and regulations/laws that apply (assuming we’re all sensible adults here).

I only ever speak about what’s happening here in the UK and how things might impact my legal access to trails, I honestly (and respectfully) don’t give a fig about the States or Aus or anywhere else, that’s for you guys to sort out.

There’s a sensible discussion to be had here, I’m just not sure we’re having it!

Suffice to say, I have lots of fun riding whatever e-bikes, from a Tongsheng TSDZ2 conversion on a Rocky Mountain through older ‘full power’ bikes through newer mid power stuff, all legal, all compliant with assist limits, the same as any Avinox that hasn’t been geo unlocked in fact.

It wouldn’t be as much fun if I had to register, license and insure the bloody things though, the same as I now do to just go legally fly a 4m 1500g remote control glider in a field far away from anybody.

The changes to the drone world, brought about by a certain DJI, and the irresponsible flying that followed as they went mainstream and folks ‘jailbroke’ them and flew where they shouldn’t is why I’m forced to do that. I don’t want that to happen to another hobby I enjoy, hence the reason we need the discussion otherwise me may find ourselves in an unpleasant place with much of the fun sucked out of it.

Regulators can be dumb, I get it, I make my living as a full size aviation professional, if you knew me you’d see me shaking my head as I see my RC hobby being regulated the same as somebody flying a 1 ton private aircraft full of fuel, apparently they present the same danger. See where this is going?

 

[Astro66]

Regulators can be dumb,

That's not the impression I'm getting from mental gymnastics being performed to try and create an issue.

Mate ..... The Avinox Motor System came out 2 years ago. No government regulatory body has banned the Avinox drive system, and it is fully certified in the regions where it is sold. Including all regions where it must be EN15194 compliant.

That's no one ...... Zero ...... Nada ..... Do I need to find more languages to get the message across ?

Whilst I'm happy for people to raise concerns. How long do we have to keep reading threads that drone on about this tampering nonsense ? Is 2 years not enough ?

 

[Plyphon]

Avinox bad.

Posted from my DJI Avinox

 

[Fangs2k]

Whilst I'm happy for people to raise concerns.

Mate …. Doesn’t sound like it!

 

[Brawwp]

Me when you knuckleheads get Avinox banned. Good luck catching me

 

[Fangs2k]

No government regulatory body has banned the Avinox drive system, and it is fully certified in the regions where it is sold. Including all regions where it must be EN15194 compliant.

Again, I know it’s legal and compliant with EN15194, I’d happily buy one tomorrow if I wanted one, but the VPN de-restrict is a simple thing Avinox could fix and head off all the discussion/ambiguity around it.

Other manufacturers manage regional variations just fine, Avinox could as well but they don’t and I think we know why.

This is the exact same conversation that happened years ago with DJI drones and beyond line of sight capability and no geo-fencing, by the time DJI added it to retail drones the genie was out of the bottle and the legal hobby had been regulated into near oblivion along with all kinds of other RC aircraft that aren’t even drones.

Regulators are dumb and stupid until they aren’t, self regulation is a good thing, but you actually have to do it.

 

[Brawwp]

Again, I know it’s legal and compliant with EN15194, I’d happily buy one tomorrow if I wanted one, but the VPN de-restrict is a simple thing Avinox could fix and head off all the discussion/ambiguity around it.

Other manufacturers manage regional variations just fine, Avinox could as well but they don’t and I think we know why.

This is the exact same conversation that happened years ago with DJI drones and beyond line of sight capability and no geo-fencing, by the time DJI added it to retail drones the genie was out of the bottle and the legal hobby had been regulated into near oblivion along with all kinds of other RC aircraft that aren’t even drones.

Regulators are dumb and stupid until they aren’t, self regulation is a good thing, but you actually have to do it.

To be fair drones go in the sky and risk crashing into airplanes and killing people as well as having cameras potentially flying around places that pose a national security risk.

Bicycles you may hit a granola girl on your local trail and have to take her to rei for some new Chaco sandals in hopes you don’t get sued

 

[Fangs2k]

To be fair drones go in the sky and risk crashing into airplanes and killing people as well as having cameras potentially flying around places that pose a national security risk.

Bicycles you may hit a granola girl on your local trail and have to take her to rei for some new Chaco sandals in hopes you don’t get sued

Drones if they’re properly restricted in line with the current regs don’t, aircraft don’t generally fly below 400ft (take off and landing phases excepted of course, which is why drones shouldn’t be flown near airports) which is where all civil drones should be.

I think your views quite naturally are formed by your attitude to risk, you see drones as risky so are fine with regulation but you don’t see e-bikes in the same way, which is understandable.

Incidentally, the US (and elsewhere) have introduced something called ‘Remote ID’ where the location of anybody flying a drone can be located via an App, not just by law enforcement but by any citizen. Things can and do get out of hand…