Does your motor meet the EN 15194:2017 standard

[notaninfluencer]

So reading through the very detailed document of the EN 15194:2017 standard, (I have a copy), these points come up.

Based on these rules, it would appear that some motors don't meet these standards as they are too easy to tamper with. For example a VPN unlock would mean that the motor is not able to be sold in the EU as an EN 15194:2017 standard motor.

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Strange.

 

[Rob_S]

I dunno. Technically it is a standard and not strictly speaking a legal requirement, albeit not doing so makes it challenging to enter the market. Manufacturers can self certify for CE and I don’t believe 3rd parties confirm. Buyers don’t care. Regs change and can be found to be too harsh to comply with sustainably. These types of standards are ‘flexed’ in many areas of manufacturing, this isn’t new.

If we didn’t have innovation pushing boundaries then life would be dull

 

[irie]

So reading through the very detailed document of the EN 15194:2017 standard, (I have a copy), these points come up.
View attachment 185006
View attachment 185007
Based on these rules, it would appear that some motors don't meet these standards as they are too easy to tamper with. For example a VPN unlock would mean that the motor is not able to be sold in the EU as an EN 15194:2017 standard motor.

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Strange.

Probably a question of enforcement.

When/if it does finally get enforced there will be much rending of clothing and wailing of grief.

 

[sethimus]

So reading through the very detailed document of the EN 15194:2017 standard, (I have a copy), these points come up.
View attachment 185006
View attachment 185007
Based on these rules, it would appear that some motors don't meet these standards as they are too easy to tamper with. For example a VPN unlock would mean that the motor is not able to be sold in the EU as an EN 15194:2017 standard motor.

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Strange.

an ip block is a common security measurement in the eu, for example: blocking of certain gambling sites and others that offer illegal content like warez etc. so please fight your wind mills somewhere else, you are just annoying at this point with your anti avinox crusade

 

[RustyIron]

Wonder why no one in authority has picked this up yet?

Write a letter to the king and beg for his protection.

I think I speak for most mountain bike riders when I say that we don't want a bunch of pasty pencil-neck parliamentarians telling us what we can and can't ride.

 

[irie]

Write a letter to the king and beg for his protection.

I think I speak for most mountain bike riders when I say that we don't want a bunch of pasty pencil-neck parliamentarians telling us what we can and can't ride.

In the UK we already have.

 

[ZR1]

so motors do not meet the standard if you can buy a tuning kit?

 

[notaninfluencer]

so motors do not meet the standard if you can buy a tuning kit?

if you buy a tuning kit then technically the bike, doesnt meet the standard no.

 

[xtraman122]

It also specifies the 250W nominal thing which has shown to be a complete joke, any legislation making mention of the 250W rating can’t be taken seriously at all.

 

[ZR1]

if you buy a tuning kit then technically the bike, doesnt meet the standard no.

so you could interpret the rules to mean pretty much every motor does not meet the standard?

There's no gotcha moment against avinox like the thread implies, if app region locking by IP is deeemd too weak then serial number to region could be a relatively easy anti tamper rule to implement.

but don't let that stop you, from that mondraker thread this is probably enough evidence for a new rumour AVINOX TO BE BANNED FROM EUROPE IMMEDIATALY!!!!111

 

[xtraman122]

so you could interpret the rules to mean pretty much every motor does not meet the standard?

There's no gotcha moment against avinox like the thread implies, if app region locking by IP is deeemd too weak then serial number to region could be a relatively easy anti tamper rule to implement.

but don't let that stop you, from that mondraker thread this is probably enough evidence for a new rumour AVINOX TO BE BANNED FROM EUROPE IMMEDIATALY!!!!111

Yeah this like saying every car is illegal because it can be modified.

 

[notaninfluencer]

Everyone forgets they are bicycles and to be classed a bicycle it must not exceed assisted power of 25kmh in the EU. If you want to go faster then buy an L1e bike. The point is that avinox is clearly allowing the work around. They could shut it down in ten minutes with a pushed update if they wanted. I mean all those people had to connect their phones to their servers to switch their bikes on... so yeah in like 10 minutes they could globally brick all the speed hackers. They have a different approach, they allow easy circumvention, its clearly written into their code, if you run it through a disassembler you can see that.

 

[Petrex]

@notaninfluencer

"its clearly written into their code, if you run it through a disassembler you can see that."

Please post the disassembled code so we can see it.

 

[Fangs2k]

I see the EMTB self appointed attack dogs are out in force today…

There’s no need for this needless antagonism, if what you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to the forum then perhaps don’t say it?

I know some of you (for some unfathomable reason) can’t cope with somebody having a different view to you, but please show some restraint, it’s embarrassing.

 

[irie]

I see the EMTB self appointed attack dogs are out in force today…

There’s no need for this needless antagonism, if what you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to the forum then perhaps don’t say it?

I know some of you (for some unfathomable reason) can’t cope with somebody having a different view to you, but please show some restraint, it’s embarrassing.

Having read every post in this thread I fail to see anything remotely embarrassing, merely a number of posts I may or may not agree with. What is interesting, as ever, is the divergence between UK (and EU? ) and US opinions. I put this down to the difference between:

- The UK's longstanding laws governing the limits placed upon assisted bikes which enables them to avoid licencing and insurance regulations giving them the right to ride everywhere manual bikes are permitted (eg Bridleways).

and

-The US's lack of equivalent regulations.

 

[Fangs2k]

Having read every post in this thread I fail to see anything remotely embarrassing, merely a number of posts I may or may not agree with.

It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon.

All the sealioning on here is self indulgent and tiresome.

Elsewhere there’s talk of ‘rabbit holes’ but all we’ve got is more silo’d opinion and an unwillingness to look beyond the superficial when discussing a point.

You’re right that some forum members do seem to struggle to look beyond their own view formed by their own corner of the world, but I’m just surprised (and saddened) how quickly the forum has turned from a friendly one full of shared EMTB experiences and helpful advice to one where it’s become so clearly tribal.

Just my 2p anyway.

 

[notaninfluencer]

It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon.

All the sealioning on here is self indulgent and tiresome.

Elsewhere there’s talk of ‘rabbit holes’ but all we’ve got is more silo’d opinion and an unwillingness to look beyond the superficial when discussing a point.

You’re right that some forum members do seem to struggle to look beyond their own view formed by their own corner of the world, but I’m just surprised (and saddened) how quickly the forum has turned from a friendly one full of shared EMTB experiences and helpful advice to one where it’s become so clearly tribal.

Just my 2p anyway.

Regarding the anti biketester brigade, here is a summary or another well know journalists opinion. on the latest software update from avinox, ive transcribed it the tester is called Andrea Ziliani, so if we look out side the island, we can see that my opinion is not so different to others... and yes if you look at the comments and methods its basically tribal bullying... LOL

He says the updated Avinox M2S motor on the Mondraker Zendit has improved a lot compared to the earlier firmware version.

Key points about the motor:

• The motor is extremely powerful:
  
  • Up to 1500W peak power
  • Around 150Nm boost torque
  • About 130Nm in normal Turbo mode
• Before the update, he felt the motor was too “on/off” and aggressive — it dumped power suddenly and made technical climbing difficult.
• After the firmware update:
  
  • Power delivery is much smoother and more controllable.
  • The bike is more responsive at low speed.
  • It is easier to manage traction on slippery technical climbs.
  • He uses the rear brake much less because the power is now more predictable.
  • The update “rounded off the sharp edges” of the firmware.
• He says the motor now works much better in difficult trail situations rather than just on paved climbs.
• There is still one weakness compared to the Bosch motor:
  
  • A small delay (“micro lag”) when starting from a stop.
  • Bosch still reacts slightly quicker and feels better for technical restarts.
• He disabled a safety feature that cut motor power when the bike tilted beyond 45 degrees because it sometimes interrupted assistance on steep climbs.
• Battery consumption is heavy when using full power:
  
  • Riding constantly in Turbo at 1300W/130Nm drains the battery quickly, even with the 800Wh battery.

Overall, his conclusion is:

• The update transformed the motor from being too abrupt into something much more usable.
• He now really likes it.
• He thinks the huge power would otherwise be wasted without the improved tuning.
• He believes the update will especially help less experienced riders handle the power more safely and effectively.

 

[Petrex]

As a progammer of old I would simply like to see the print out of the decompiler output.
It would be interesting.

 

[notaninfluencer]

As a progammer of old I would simply like to see the print out of the decompiler output.
It would be interesting.

you can ask the government agency that did it to send it to you.

 

[Petrex]

Can you link to the source of your statement, please.
From your post I thought you had (clearly) seen it from running it through a decompiler.

 

[notaninfluencer]

Can you link to the source of your statement, please.
From your post I thought you had (clearly) seen it from running it through a decompiler.

the source is not on the internet, bit like the EN regs, which are not available in public domain without paying.

 

[richy]

ive seen it but not on my computer. Im bored of the avinox fan boys who are convinced that they are right and by bullying everyone they win something. I as a journalist am privy to many things you are not. I even have the ability to go along with the local police force as they stop and check ebikes for speed and confiscate and fine those using illegal rides. You dont. Of course if you want to see everything i do you are going to have to sign a non disclousre agreement and also register as a journalist. You cant just be a keyboard warrior and push out what ever you want.

Investigations are conducted in private. I have seen also in my life phone track records by police, ive seen all kinds of things you have not.

I can sit here watch you squirm or I can let you know subtly that there are things which people are not imagining are happening and will cause big issues for the community.

Ask yourself the question, why and how do i have access to information that you dont.

This is like the "WTF did you just say to me..." meme copy pasta

Petrex is not the only one thinking it would be nice to see the decompiled code, after having read such a bold claim. But if there is no evidence to back it up then fair enough i suppose

 

[notaninfluencer]

This is like the "WTF did you just say to me..." meme copy pasta

Petrex is not the only one thinking it would be nice to see the decompiled code, after having read such a bold claim. But if there is no evidence to back it up then fair enough i suppose

This is like the "WTF did you just say to me..." meme copy pasta

Petrex is not the only one thinking it would be nice to see the decompiled code, after having read such a bold claim. But if there is no evidence to back it up then fair enough i suppose

 

[irie]

It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon.

All the

I see the EMTB self appointed attack dogs are out in force today…

There’s no need for this needless antagonism, if what you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to the forum then perhaps don’t say it?

I know some of you (for some unfathomable reason) can’t cope with somebody having a different view to you, but please show some restraint, it’s embarrassing.

It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon.

All the sealioning on here is self indulgent and tiresome.

Elsewhere there’s talk of ‘rabbit holes’ but all we’ve got is more silo’d opinion and an unwillingness to look beyond the superficial when discussing a point.

You’re right that some forum members do seem to struggle to look beyond their own view formed by their own corner of the world, but I’m just surprised (and saddened) how quickly the forum has turned from a friendly one full of shared EMTB experiences and helpful advice to one where it’s become so clearly tribal.

Just my 2p anyway.

It must be gratifying for the @Moderator 's to know that there is an independent arbiter of taste and content active in this forum.

 

[notaninfluencer]

Letss jsut post what others post. LOL

When the story is finished you can grab the pop corn and watch....

 

[Fangs2k]

It must be gratifying for the @Moderator 's to know that there is an independent arbiter of taste and content active in this forum.

I was wondering when somebody would come back with that.

It’s simple, you can self moderate, just as people do everywhere apart from online forums I guess.

We can either make it a better place to ‘hang out’ or we can make it a toxic place that people will drift away from in time.

Not my forum, but behavior breeds behaviour and all that.

 

[xtraman122]

- The UK's longstanding laws governing the limits placed upon assisted bikes which enables them to avoid licencing and insurance regulations giving them the right to ride everywhere manual bikes are permitted (eg Bridleways).

and

-The US's lack of equivalent regulations.

Are the regulations between the two really that different? The UK and EU have a 25kph limit, we have a 20mph limit, 5mph difference between the two but both pretty reasonable. I don’t personally see the need for assist past 20mph, I could see the ~15mph in Europe being annoying at times,
I could see them eventually raising that to match the 20mph of some other countries. The 28mph for Class 3 we have is definitely “fast”, I wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually required registration/insurance or an age requirement for that at some point, in my opinion it’s too fast for assistance on an MTB trail and quite dangerous for kids messing around in city streets. An adult on a road bike I would get it though.

As for power, the “nominal 250W” has proven to mean absolutely nothing as DJI can produce a 1500W motor and claim it’s designed for a nominal output of 250W. Even being someone with an Avinox bike on order I’m fine with a 750W limit on peak power, I definitely won’t use much more than that on my bike once I get it. I keep my M560 motor tuned to about 600-650W on the mode I do 95% of my miles on and occasionally switch to one that peaks just under 800. I’d be fine with us all agreeing on some power limitation so it’s something actually sensical and enforceable, maybe it’s 750W, maybe it’s something else, but a common limit that is a more tangible thing to measure would make sense for all.

 

[Fangs2k]

Are the regulations between the two really that different? The UK and EU have a 25kph limit, we have a 20mph limit, 5mph difference between the two but both pretty reasonable.

It’s not the assist limit that differentiates, although I think e-bicycle laws over there vary state by state, but more that ‘bicycles’ (which includes e-bikes conforming to the EN standard in the OP) have wide ranging and lawful access to trails that are excluded from e-motorbikes and what you’d call ‘class 3’ trail bikes.

Speaking only for myself, it’s this that I’m concerned about with the ‘power wars’ that may turn a great big spotlight on ‘us’ and that automatic access being revoked or made more difficult.

It’s not because I’m a killjoy who doesn’t want people to ride 1500w EMTBs that can assist to 30mph, there’s room for those (somewhere) but probably not on UK shared trails and bridleways.

I totally accept that other places in the world have different rules/laws and access, which is totally as it should be.

 

[xtraman122]

It’s not the assist limit that differentiates, although I think e-bicycle laws over there vary state by state, but more that ‘bicycles’ (which includes e-bikes conforming to the EN standard in the OP) have wide ranging and lawful access to trails that are excluded from e-motorbikes and what you’d call ‘class 3’ trail bikes.

Speaking only for myself, it’s this that I’m concerned about with the ‘power wars’ that may turn a great big spotlight on ‘us’ and that automatic access being revoked or made more difficult.

It’s not because I’m a killjoy who doesn’t want people to ride 1500w EMTBs that can assist to 30mph, there’s room for those (somewhere) but probably not on UK shared trails and bridleways.

I totally accept that other places in the world have different rules/laws and access, which is totally as it should be.

We have similar issues, some trails call out only Class 1, some don’t allow e-bikes at all supposedly (I’ve never seen this be an issue around me), but if people do start riding big heavy monstrosities that resemble a dirt bike more than a bicycle access will definitely become an issue. We hear of the random kids on Surrons trying to ride them on bike trails and causing all sorts of havoc, that’s the stuff that’ll ruin it for everyone.

 

[TQFreak]

Standard is not the law. Standards exist for businesses (for many reasons, like marketing purposes, efficiency, etc). Following them or not following them is not mandatory and only up to a company and only a company makes decision to follow or not follow them depending on the company goals and the content of the standards.