Open Letter to the Bicycle Industry https://www.pinkbike.com/news/an-open-letter-to-the-bicycle-industry.html#commenttop
That's it, all the new power emtbs are e-mopeds
Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions
- Thread starter Mcharza
- Start date
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but reading PInkbike, most of the argument isn't the power/performance, but the attitude of the associated riders. Barging their way through, self-entitlement etc...
In the UK i've not seen this attitude at all despite being out in the hills most weekends.
So i'm not sure that the power being set would actually help/change that.
by the same account though, i simply don't understand the want/need for more power. But i've been a MTBer for a long time. Is it more the newer riders who are in this arms-race for power ?
In the UK i've not seen this attitude at all despite being out in the hills most weekends.
So i'm not sure that the power being set would actually help/change that.
by the same account though, i simply don't understand the want/need for more power. But i've been a MTBer for a long time. Is it more the newer riders who are in this arms-race for power ?
Pinkbike has to have one of the most negative user bases I have ever seen. No one is ever happy in a comment section there. Crazy amount of militant emtb haters also (mostly US/Canadian users). I think there's a quite a large ego component to it tbh.
It's a funny place for sure. Every time a new bike comes out it's like
"445mm chainstay, don't they get that bigger riders need longer"
Then the next one
"475mm chainstay, who the hell wants longer chainstays".
I mean really lol
pagheca
Active member
I'm confused.
The 3 class definition mentioned is way too generic. And by the way, I do not understand: pedelecs in europe are allowed max speed of 15.5 mph (25 kmh) and power up to 250 W. Not 20 mph and 750 in all EU countries (You @Mcharza write from Finland, therefore I guess you are interested in EU regulations).
So, what is he talking about? Definition or change of regulations?
And by the way, this is a summary of regulations around the world for anyone interested: E-Bike Legal Status Around the World (Wikipedia) -
The 3 class definition mentioned is way too generic. And by the way, I do not understand: pedelecs in europe are allowed max speed of 15.5 mph (25 kmh) and power up to 250 W. Not 20 mph and 750 in all EU countries (You @Mcharza write from Finland, therefore I guess you are interested in EU regulations).
So, what is he talking about? Definition or change of regulations?
And by the way, this is a summary of regulations around the world for anyone interested: E-Bike Legal Status Around the World (Wikipedia) -
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Avinox: 1000w
Specialized: 850w
Mahle: 850w
Yamaha: 800w
Bosch: 750w
Bosch went from being the most powerful to the least powerful amongst the big motor manufacturers.
What will be interesting is what messaging will appear if/when Bosch update their motor to more than 750w which IMO is inevitable
Specialized: 850w
Mahle: 850w
Yamaha: 800w
Bosch: 750w
Bosch went from being the most powerful to the least powerful amongst the big motor manufacturers.
What will be interesting is what messaging will appear if/when Bosch update their motor to more than 750w which IMO is inevitable
Avinox really do have Bosch rattled. And more rattled than a Bosch motor on a long descent.He should've mentioned he's a Bosch ambassador
Yeah, there is deffo a little politicking in there, however the thrust of Hans Rey's arguments are spot on.
Someone made a good point the other day that it's not necessarily the top speed that is the issue, but the acceleration speed some bikes can put out. I tend to agree that inexperienced riders are at higher risk with huge acceleration speeds compared to a top speed of say 45kph.
Ironically the Bosch Race motor is the most violent / aggressive map out of all of the above motors in my opinion. A new rider could get into trouble using it in that mode. (I really like it btw).
Avinox is slower to get up to speed, even with its 1000w. It’s like a turbo car with a lot of turbo lag.
What's going on with the power race is dangerous and the Chinese don't care about your trail access in the USA/ Europe/ Etc. What's the saying, if you aren't cheating you ain't trying.
Problem is that they are nearly impossible to police.
Anyways, I'm going to throw my hat down as 750w/ 100nm being more than enough for any e-bike application and I'd like to see motors being optimized (smaller, lighter, quieter, more efficient) around this max power limit.
One of the PB commentators suggested that if all reviewers and publications just refused to cover and review above Class 1 e-bikes, manufacturers would self police.
Problem is that they are nearly impossible to police.
Anyways, I'm going to throw my hat down as 750w/ 100nm being more than enough for any e-bike application and I'd like to see motors being optimized (smaller, lighter, quieter, more efficient) around this max power limit.
One of the PB commentators suggested that if all reviewers and publications just refused to cover and review above Class 1 e-bikes, manufacturers would self police.
As long as their sales and profits increased the Chinese wouldn't care if everything ended up requiring licencing and insuring (resulting in us in the UK being prohibited from riding on cycle paths and more importantly on our huge Bridleway network).
bmwpowere36m3
Member
Hans Rey has a point, but his points also align with Bosch's current motor outputs... we are seeing two camps forming. Those who believe we have reached or exceeded the point of blurring lines with motorcycles and those who say give me more.
The user switchable Class III, wink, wink, pinky promise... doesn't help from an optics perspective. Really the issue is non-conforming ebikes and usage more so on public roads and multi-use pathways. Its the general public's perception of "ebikes" and lumping in emotos and not so much folks blasting in the woods with 1000W.
The user switchable Class III, wink, wink, pinky promise... doesn't help from an optics perspective. Really the issue is non-conforming ebikes and usage more so on public roads and multi-use pathways. Its the general public's perception of "ebikes" and lumping in emotos and not so much folks blasting in the woods with 1000W.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
In the US its state dependent, most are 750W peak and some are 1000W... in the EU its 250W nominal (thermal) rating. However, with today's brushless motor tech and digital control, a 750W peak motor (such as Bosch's CX) still meets the 250W nominal EU rating. I bet the Avinox does as well, given how aggressive the derating on it is under constant use.
Hans' statement was more directed towards the US and a 750W peak limit (manufactoer pact) would allow for motors to meet requirements in both US and EU markets.
Bosch could increase power 50% with a simple programming change, at least until thermal deregulation pulled power, such is the nature of electric motors.
Bosch is trying to be responsible by withholding but they are being pushed in to a corner at the moment imo by the power race.
At this point, I guess Bosch should offer a clear class 3 alternative motor to compete with Avinox/ Spesh. Hopefully they do it with a substantially different looking motor.
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pagheca
Active member
Maybe it would help if people in the U.S. specified that they’re referring to their own context when they post. It just avoids confusion, since this community (and the world!) includes many different countries and perspectives.
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CarolinaCrawler
Active member
I completely agree and don't care what his opinions align with. I've said for a while that I would love a 80mn motor the size and weight of a Fazua. I need nothing more. I was speechless when Specalized released the gen 4 with the Class 3 options. I knew that would be the beginning of the end for ebike rights in the US.
I also don't blame this on manufactures. I blame it on the public. They are only building what sells.
I think the 3 class system worked well but now all bets are off.
I also don't blame this on manufactures. I blame it on the public. They are only building what sells.
I think the 3 class system worked well but now all bets are off.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
What people? Posting on PB, on this forum, myself...? Most users on the forum seem to have the location on their profile... " "somewhere in galaxy" doesn't help
Like I said, his message was mostly directed towards the US based on his response comment to the PB article. That said, I think he's pushing for "worldwide" definitions. 20 mph would appease those complaining in the UK of the class I 15 mph limit and already exists in the US. Same for 750W peak, its existing US law (mostly) and it would comply with existing 250W nominal EU. So really the only change would be raising the speed limit and now you have a more universal limit.
JStrube
Active member
For me, Class 3 is great for a road bike, helps a bit overweight or older guy keep up on a group ride. using all 27MPH is not easy though, even in Turbo mode, you have to work for it. I have not wanted more than the US version of Class 1 on my MTB though, at least on dirt. I mean, maybe if I was riding flat wide dirt roads, but that is not my normal case. I would be mad as a hatter if I was limited to 15MPH though.
Really where the line should be drawn is throttle or no throttle. especially for those with a throttle and no pedals. Those are the guys out terrorizing the neighborhoods and campgrounds. Once you get a throttle, it is more Moped or motorcycle than it is E-Bike.
The problem in the US, where our access is not as widespread as overseas, is that the haters want us all to fight, and lump us all into the motorcycle category, because it has a motor.
Really where the line should be drawn is throttle or no throttle. especially for those with a throttle and no pedals. Those are the guys out terrorizing the neighborhoods and campgrounds. Once you get a throttle, it is more Moped or motorcycle than it is E-Bike.
The problem in the US, where our access is not as widespread as overseas, is that the haters want us all to fight, and lump us all into the motorcycle category, because it has a motor.
Until groups that want even more power for whatever reason(s) start clamouring for even higher limits, that is ...
bmwpowere36m3
Member
Sure, but that's harder to implement legislatively... an increase in power when there's already precedence.
For you UK (maybe others too) folk... what's more important? Keeping the 15 mph AND the 250W nominal on the hopes that with time more powerful motors would still be "legal" OR get the 20 mph limit and cap at 750W?
- Thread starter
- #23
This is what worries me the most. With these fast-accelerating and powerful EMTBs, in inexperienced hands, it is possible to cause the most damage to trails and nature. Then walkers and hikers complain about this and there are fears that the trails will be closed to all mountain bikers.
pagheca
Active member
I was referring to the original post by @Mcharza.What people? Posting on PB, on this forum, myself...? Most users on the forum seem to have the location on their profile... " "somewhere in galaxy" doesn't help
However, as you are just joking about my polite comment, let me remind you that, ignorance of geography in the US is notoriously so large that even if I would specify that I come from Italy most people would probably point to Vietnam or New Zealand...
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That is exactly the point - increasing power creates a precedence which can be used to further increase power in the future.
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DirkWisely
Well-known member
I do think we're pushing the limits of the power we should accept for EMTBs. Even with the 850 update I don't think you can make a safety argument for the Levo going uphill too fast. It simply doesn't go up that fast, and you can stop on a dime if you need to.
pagheca
Active member
In the EU, as most of you know, the term pedelec (or EPAC) refers specifically to pedal-assisted e-bikes limited to 25 km/h and 250 W of continuous power. In some Asian countries, however, the same label is used for vehicles that fall into quite different categories.
Personally, I’m perfectly fine with the EU limits, especially if the idea is to allow these bikes to circulate without insurance, registration, or a driving licence.
Controls are becoming more frequent. In the town where I live, police occasionally carry out checks and fine riders using modified bikes, often in the food-delivery sector. I genuinely feel sorry for those workers, who are often under pressure and poorly paid, forced to rush across town for very little money. At the same time, safety and fairness require proper enforcement.
In my view, responsibility should not fall only on the riders. The companies behind these delivery platforms should also be held accountable, something that is already happening in several countries, including Italy. In Spain, enforcement became so strict that Deliveroo eventually ceased operations there.
It’s a complex issue, but clear rules and consistent enforcement are essential if we want a safe and equitable urban mobility system, more than glossary.
Personally, I’m perfectly fine with the EU limits, especially if the idea is to allow these bikes to circulate without insurance, registration, or a driving licence.
Controls are becoming more frequent. In the town where I live, police occasionally carry out checks and fine riders using modified bikes, often in the food-delivery sector. I genuinely feel sorry for those workers, who are often under pressure and poorly paid, forced to rush across town for very little money. At the same time, safety and fairness require proper enforcement.
In my view, responsibility should not fall only on the riders. The companies behind these delivery platforms should also be held accountable, something that is already happening in several countries, including Italy. In Spain, enforcement became so strict that Deliveroo eventually ceased operations there.
It’s a complex issue, but clear rules and consistent enforcement are essential if we want a safe and equitable urban mobility system, more than glossary.
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I find that there is no such discussion taking place in places that don't care about the politics of where EMTBs are manufactured. The only ebike outrage going on in Australia, is about illegal ebikes being ridden on the road. There is zero mention of what proper factory EMTBs are being ridden on MTB trails.
Meanwhile, European manufacturers are trying to conjure conspiracy stories about over-powered EMTBs. Same with Americans.
So it's not illogical to conclude that a significant basis for the propagation of this outrage, is to try and subdue the growing rise of the brilliant EMTBs being manufactured outside of Europe and America these days.
I just want the best EMTB at a reasonable price. I don't care where it's manufactured, so I certainly don't support the views of someone like Hans Rey, who gains financial benefit from spreading this Faux Outrage.
There are plenty of European bike companies with Avinox bikes either already available or soon to be available. Which ones in particular do you think are leading this crusade against the Chinese motor company? I see very little talk from companies themselves about what the limits or restrictions should be on power. Almost all the talk online I see comes from rider's themselves.
Either way I think it's important that there is a very clear distinction between the emtbs we ride and everything else (Surrons, etc) because if we get lumped in with them then it will mean bad things for trail/countryside access for emtbs. Maybe this isn't an issue in Australia but it very much is in other parts of the world so just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it won't affect others.
GeordieDownSouth
Active member
I’d be happy with the 750w as long as we in the EU get the 20mph as 15mph is just rubbish for quite a lot of riders who ride undulating trails (like most UK trail centres) or jumps, but yet again the focus is now on the US, ironically pretty much non if not any of these motors are from US manufacturers….so why the emphasis on what the US wants? Simply that there’s so much hate for ebikes in the US that they struggle to get trail access, but then why should the rest of the world follow their rules? I feel for the American Ebiker, I really do, but then why do the rest of the world have to suffer? Go ahead US, Limit it to 750w just like we in the EU have had to just suck it up that our assistance is limited to 15mph, if we can be constrained then there’s no reason you can’t based on your locality, it’s just software!
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