Forbidden Druid CorE vs Crestline

[Lfhao]

I’m a bit torn between these two.

I know they aren’t on the same travel range. On paper Forbidden has less travel but everyone says it rides more than the 150mm. In my view, they are both enduro bikes. I’m from PNW and either bike should be good for the trails I ride.

I wonder anyone rides both or going through the same debate?

 

[jcmonty]

Have you seen the pink bike emtb shootout? They compare both . The forbidden thread is pretty active too. I believe someone had experience with both

 

[Astro66]

More travel is more travel. You cannot change the physics. Rate of deceleration is reduced with more travel. You can slow the energy being absorbed when hitting bumps over a greater distance, and thus time. It's like increasing your braking distance. You reduce the rate of change of velocity.

I rode a friends triple clamp 200mm DH MTB at Thredbo. It was unbelievable. You can just absorb bigger hits with more travel. So it's safer to go faster.

But if your goal isn't to go downhill over technical terrain the fastest. Or you are lightweight, like 60-70kgs. Then the Forbidden will get the Enduro job done.

 

[Chairman]

More travel is more travel. You cannot change the physics. Rate of deceleration is reduced with more travel. You can slow the energy being absorbed when hitting bumps over a greater distance, and thus time. It's like increasing your braking distance. You reduce the rate of change of velocity.

I rode a friends triple clamp 200mm DH MTB at Thredbo. It was unbelievable. You can just absorb bigger hits with more travel. So it's safer to go faster.

But if your goal isn't to go downhill over technical terrain the fastest. Or you are lightweight, like 60-70kgs. Then the Forbidden will get the Enduro job done.

It will get the job done regardless. Very capable bike. Totally enduro

 

[doochenozzle]

More travel is more travel. You cannot change the physics. Rate of deceleration is reduced with more travel. You can slow the energy being absorbed when hitting bumps over a greater distance, and thus time. It's like increasing your braking distance. You reduce the rate of change of velocity.

I rode a friends triple clamp 200mm DH MTB at Thredbo. It was unbelievable. You can just absorb bigger hits with more travel. So it's safer to go faster.

But if your goal isn't to go downhill over technical terrain the fastest. Or you are lightweight, like 60-70kgs. Then the Forbidden will get the Enduro job done.

Rearward axle path gives more travel. Physics. Instead of coming forward and accentuating hits, the CorE’s rearward axle path moves away. On everything but hucks to flat a Forbidden feels like more than the name plate travel. I’ve been running a 38 at 170 and the bike feels balanced and fine. I hang with friends on Wilds and whatever other enduro eebs. It’s an incredible bike. The Pinkbike shootout came to the same conclusion.

 

[Astro66]

Rearward axle path gives more travel. Physics. Instead of coming forward and accentuating hits, the CorE’s rearward axle path moves away.

Sure. But a high pivot with 20% more travel will do it better. EMTBs like the Velduro and Teewing Flux.

 

[Plummet]

I agree with Astro. More travel is more travel. High pivot bikes absolutely do not compensate for having less travel with more rearward axle path. The rearward axle path soften square edge hits and gets more stable at speed and thats it. Smash off a big feature and on the druid you will be piloting a 150mm bike, not a 180mm bike.

Druids in particular have some pretty whacky geo that you will either love or hate. They have really long rear chainstays even before the rearward axle path of the high pivot design. Making those chainstays super long underload. For me personally that is an immediate deal breaker. I hate long chainstays, they suck the fun and playfullness out of a bike. Sure you get a really stable bike, but at the expense of playfullness and manualability.

If you want ubber stability at speed and your terrain is mostly 150mm type terrain, you just want to survive big terrain and you don't ever manual then the druid might be for you.

If you want to smash big terrain and have a bike that feels more like a traditional mtb then the crestline will be for you.

To throw you a curve ball.

Want to go in between druid and crestline. Look at the mid pivot 170mm Velduro.......

 

[Astro66]

For me personally that is an immediate deal breaker. I hate long chainstays, they suck the fun and playfullness out of a bike. Sure you get a really stable bike, but at the expense of playfulness and manualability.

Yep. I'm the same. Love training to do little tricks. So much easier on a playful bike.

Want to go in between druid and crestline. Look at the mid pivot 170mm Velduro.......

Yep again. It's why I'm looking at the Mid-pivot 178mm Teewing Flux, as a stablemate to the Amflow.

 

[Chairman]

Well I have come off a 200 185 and I can tell you the Forbidden for me is more capable in every situation. I was concerned about the travel pre purchase but 40000 metres of descending later and you can't take the smile of my face. Read into the stats what you will but riding is the proof. Got a mate whi picks up his Velduro bext week so will have some direct comparison. I expect it to perform very well but the Forbidden will take some beating.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

+7mm of rear axle path does not make up for 30mm less travel in any world. Trail bike vs Enduro, simple as that.

 

[Scford]

I was in the same debate between the two, I had planned on the druid but then crestline surprise dropped the spectre. I was lucky to snag one and i really like the way vpp rides. I haven't been able to try out a druid and would still love to for comparisons sake. Ultimately either way I don’t think you can really go wrong. Crestline is about to release their next batch of frames, could be a good opportunity, otherwise you might be able to find a druid in stick somewhere.

 

[Plummet]

Well I have come off a 200 185 and I can tell you the Forbidden for me is more capable in every situation. I was concerned about the travel pre purchase but 40000 metres of descending later and you can't take the smile of my face. Read into the stats what you will but riding is the proof. Got a mate whi picks up his Velduro bext week so will have some direct comparison. I expect it to perform very well but the Forbidden will take some beating.

Weren't you on a heavy franken bike though? Like an older 165/170 Cannondale that you frankenbiked up to 185/200mm.

If so then that kinda makes sense. Bikes that have significantly been over stroked and over travelled are not going to be optized for that travel and will have some weird traits.

I also ask what is the main type of riding you do? Are you hammering double black monster chunk all day long or is it more of a mix of blues/blacks with some gnarly stuff chucked in now and then? We really need to match the bike to the terrain. A big bruiser aint going to fair as well on smaller terrain and vise versa a optimized 150/170 is going to go better on that type of terrain then be holding on on the bigger terrain.

I wonder how much of your better in every way statement is because you went from a heavy non optimized frame with a triple on it to a lighter more playful feeling bike that its still capable at speed that matched your terrain better than the last bike?

 

[Chairman]

Weren't you on a heavy franken bike though? Like an older 165/170 Cannondale that you frankenbiked up to 185/200mm.

If so then that kinda makes sense. Bikes that have significantly been over stroked and over travelled are not going to be optized for that travel and will have some weird traits.

I also ask what is the main type of riding you do? Are you hammering double black monster chunk all day long or is it more of a mix of blues/blacks with some gnarly stuff chucked in now and then? We really need to match the bike to the terrain. A big bruiser aint going to fair as well on smaller terrain and vise versa a optimized 150/170 is going to go better on that type of terrain then be holding on on the bigger terrain.

I wonder how much of your better in every way statement is because you went from a heavy non optimized frame with a triple on it to a lighter more playful feeling bike that its still capable at speed that matched your terrain better than the last bike?

Yes I was and you make a fair point. But I am still pleasantly surprised how well this bike performs. My analogue bikes are a nomad and zerode taniwha both of which I would call enduro bikes with more travel and the forbidden is easily as Enduro as them but falls well short of being a full blown DH bike.

 

[Highland Wheels]

I agree with Astro. More travel is more travel. High pivot bikes absolutely do not compensate for having less travel with more rearward axle path. The rearward axle path soften square edge hits and gets more stable at speed and thats it. Smash off a big feature and on the druid you will be piloting a 150mm bike, not a 180mm bike.

Druids in particular have some pretty whacky geo that you will either love or hate. They have really long rear chainstays even before the rearward axle path of the high pivot design. Making those chainstays super long underload. For me personally that is an immediate deal breaker. I hate long chainstays, they suck the fun and playfullness out of a bike. Sure you get a really stable bike, but at the expense of playfullness and manualability.

If you want ubber stability at speed and your terrain is mostly 150mm type terrain, you just want to survive big terrain and you don't ever manual then the druid might be for you.

If you want to smash big terrain and have a bike that feels more like a traditional mtb then the crestline will be for you.

To throw you a curve ball.

Want to go in between druid and crestline. Look at the mid pivot 170mm Velduro.......

I totally get this, for me the Druid is plenty. Doesn't feel out it's depth really even on EWS stage trails in the Tweed Valley. But I would try the E dreadnought when it arrives anyway

I think you should try a Forbidden if you can wangle a demo ride on one. You seem to ride pretty full on so be interested to hear what you think. Certainly the stuff that Brian Cahil ans Olly from Forbidden were riding them on would definitely be suited to the bugger hitting bikes but the Druid didn't seem to have any issues riding it at pace but good riders probably mitagated the "lack" of travel

 

[Plummet]

Yes I was and you make a fair point. But I am still pleasantly surprised how well this bike performs. My analogue bikes are a nomad and zerode taniwha both of which I would call enduro bikes with more travel and the forbidden is easily as Enduro as them but falls well short of being a full blown DH bike.

Both worthy mtbs in their own right.

I had the 190mm Pole Voima, which was great in a monster chunk in straight line and super steep up. But it was heavy and a lumbering beast.

I upgraded my mtb to a high pivot Deviate Claymore built it to 170/180mm. Man thats and awesome bike apart from the pedal up suck and I also don't enjoy the moving chainstay for manualling. But get it into the tight tech, the chunk and the jumps and its a thing of beauty. The Voima still had it on straight line chunk. But everywhere else i enjoyed the Deviate more. I started riding the Deviate more and more because it was just more fun on the down and in most instances faster down....... By that stage I had come to the conclusion that heavy ebikes were not my thing (the Pole was 25.5kg with a big heavy 750hw battery up front) and the heavy suck was reducing my riding joy.

Anyway, the Pole got taken out in a head on with a car and I upgraded to the Bosch crestline with 400wh and 600wh battery was a full 4kg lighter coming in at 21.5kg with the 400wh. Man what a revalation, all of the suck that the heavy pole had the crestline didnt have... I pretty much smashed any strava time i had on the pole with the Crestline. The Pole was just too big, too heavy and was slower in my terrain than the Cresty.

After a few rides on the cresty i'm like holy shit i enjoy this thing on the down better than the claymore, it manuals better and is a shit ton more planted. Its a really nice weight for riding charging. The Cresty has shown me that high pivot isnt always better.

Any way the long winded story, is that i think there is a sweet spot for ebike weight were they feel more planted than lighter mtbs but arent too heavy that they ride like dogs. Your Druid probably sits in that sweet spot, like my crestline does. Your cannondale probably sat above the sweet spot an in the too heavy too much suspension category like the pole did.

 

[Chairman]

Both worthy mtbs in their own right.

I had the 190mm Pole Voima, which was great in a monster chunk in straight line and super steep up. But it was heavy and a lumbering beast.

I upgraded my mtb to a high pivot

Deviate Claymore built it to 170/180mm. Man thats and awesome bike apart from the pedal up suck and I also don't enjoy the moving chainstay for manualling. But get it into the tight tech, the chunk and the jumps and its a thing of beauty. The Voima still had it on straight line chunk. But everywhere else i enjoyed the Deviate more. I started riding the Deviate more and more because it was just more fun on the down and in most instances faster down....... By that stage I had come to the conclusion that heavy ebikes were not my thing (the Pole was 25.5kg with a big heavy 750hw battery up front) and the heavy suck was reducing my riding joy.

Anyway, the Pole got taken out in a head on with a car and I upgraded to the Bosch crestline with 400wh and 600wh battery was a full 4kg lighter coming in at 21.5kg with the 400wh. Man what a revalation, all of the suck that the heavy pole had the crestline didnt have... I pretty much smashed any strava time i had on the pole with the Crestline. The Pole was just too big, too heavy and was slower in my terrain than the Cresty.

After a few rides on the cresty i'm like holy shit i enjoy this thing on the down better than the claymore, it manuals better and is a shit ton more planted. Its a really nice weight for riding charging. The Cresty has shown me that high pivot isnt always better.

Any way the long winded story, is that i think there is a sweet spot for ebike weight were they feel more planted than lighter mtbs but arent too heavy that they ride like dogs. Your Druid probably sits in that sweet spot, like my crestline does. Your cannondale probably sat above the sweet spot an in the too heavy too much suspension category like the pole did.

Totally agree with this. Just returned from riding pretty much the steepest Vegas has to offer. Didn't ride anxiety though. Might just be a bit much for me. I am riding with confidence drops and steeps that previously were outside my limits. I also would like to see you try a forbidden and give us feedback.if you can get your Hans on one. Where are you based?

 

[Plummet]

Totally agree with this. Just returned from riding pretty much the steepest Vegas has to offer. Didn't ride anxiety though. Might just be a bit much for me. I am riding with confidence drops and steeps that previously were outside my limits. I also would like to see you try a forbidden and give us feedback.if you can get your Hans on one. Where are you based?

Nice, its excellent when you can find a bit of kit that works for you. Yeah, anxiety is hectic it took me a few looks before manning up and doing the first drop into the track.

Im in Taranaki, will be on Vegas for the legends enduro at the end of the month. If ya keen we could do a bike swap for a lap or two on the Saturday.

 

[Chairman]

Could work. I'm 5 7 what are you? We ride every Tues and Friday 10 am planet bike

 

[Plummet]

Could work. I'm 5 7 what are you? We ride every Tues and Friday 10 am planet bike

5'11, but like to size down to medium so likely a similar bike size to you. Not sure ill be there Friday yet.

 

[Lfhao]

Thanks so much for the replies!
I can't resist and placed an order for the new Crestline frame. I do prefer frame only option as I have many parts collecting dust in the garage...
I think during the long wait I will try to demo a Forbidden (so far I'm not aware a bike shop with demo available) and if I really really really like it I will withdraw my Crestline order or resell it.

 

[Tgianco]

Have you seen the pink bike emtb shootout? They compare both . The forbidden thread is pretty active too. I believe someone had experience with both

For me, I just have found that I never seem to agree with the PinkBike dudes. I like the Loam Wolf, but my most trusted evaluator is Brian Cahal, even though I'm not a long chainsaw guy... he's the granddaddy of long chainstays.

 

[Lfhao]

Most reviewers say Forbidden has long chainstay, it’s only for s3 and up sizes. eDruid s2 chainstay is 442 and Crestline is 440 by default. Reach number is close too, 447 vs 450, stack 649 vs 639. Seems pretty similar geo for S2.

 

[Plummet]

Most reviewers say Forbidden has long chainstay, it’s only for s3 and up sizes. eDruid s2 chainstay is 442 and Crestline is 440 by default. Reach number is close too, 447 vs 450, stack 649 vs 639. Seems pretty similar geo for S2.

When comparing highpivot chainstay length to non high pivot ya really need to compare sagged chainstay. So add a good 10mm to the forbidden.

 

[Lfhao]

When comparing highpivot chainstay length to non high pivot ya really need to compare sagged chainstay. So add a good 10mm to the forbidden.

Ah that’s a good point! Hopefully I can demo one soon

 

[Chairman]

When comparing highpivot chainstay length to non high pivot ya really need to compare sagged chainstay. So add a good 10mm to the forbidden.

I don't know if this makes sense but I am surprised to find that even as good and comfortable the Forbidden has felt right from the get go I still find myself getting more and more at one with the action of a high pivot. To me it's kinda like long chainstay when you want it to yet shorter at other times when you notice how maneuverable it is. Maybe not explained well but I do know I like it

 

[jcmonty]

I don't know if this makes sense but I am surprised to find that even as good and comfortable the Forbidden has felt right from the get go I still find myself getting more and more at one with the action of a high pivot. To me it's kinda like long chainstay when you want it to yet shorter at other times when you notice how maneuverable it is. Maybe not explained well but I do know I like it

Same. It saved my ass today as well on a sketchy gap to rear wheel slide out that “caught itself” as the bike lengthened on compression (the slide was nothing to do with my 550+ mi rear tire wear and higher pressure today .. not all )

First few rides on the Druid I had to get used to the different motion for pre loading for jumps, bunny hops, etc. But it’s natural now. Also, you have to retrain your mind a bit about not needing to be over the front as much if you are coming from a more traditional long front center, shorter rear center.

 

[Plummet]

I don't know if this makes sense but I am surprised to find that even as good and comfortable the Forbidden has felt right from the get go I still find myself getting more and more at one with the action of a high pivot. To me it's kinda like long chainstay when you want it to yet shorter at other times when you notice how maneuverable it is. Maybe not explained well but I do know I like it

Yeah, thats exactly how it is.

Same. It saved my ass today as well on a sketchy gap to rear wheel slide out that “caught itself” as the bike lengthened on compression (the slide was nothing to do with my 550+ mi rear tire wear and higher pressure today .. not all )

First few rides on the Druid I had to get used to the different motion for pre loading for jumps, bunny hops, etc. But it’s natural now. Also, you have to retrain your mind a bit about not needing to be over the front as much if you are coming from a more traditional long front center, shorter rear center.

I specc'd my high pivot 10mm shorter chainstay than my non high pivot bikes so when im sagged im at about the same length as my other bikes which is smack in the sweet spot for me. I ride them all the same technique except for having to adapt between high, mid pivot and vpp for manuals across my quiver of bikes.

 

[Chairman]

Yeah, thats exactly how it is.

I specc'd my high pivot 10mm shorter chainstay than my non high pivot bikes so when im sagged im at about the same length as my other bikes which is smack in the sweet spot for me. I ride them all the same technique except for having to adapt between high, mid pivot and vpp for manuals across my quiver of bikes.

Yeah I can see how that could would work

 

[Adyzakydany]

It will get the job done regardless. Very capable bike. Totally enduro

Erm....the chaps who designed the bike said they set out to make a more capable trail bike and that is what it is through and through out. It's not an Enduro bike, they said its not.

 

[Lightme]

Erm....the chaps who designed the bike said they set out to make a more capable trail bike and that is what it is through and through out. It's not an Enduro bike, they said its not.

1. Who cares?
2. Look at the travel of bikes that literally won EDR races last year.