High Pivot vs non High Pivot eMtb

[Chairman]

I

HP is not poppy at all, it suck out the life of any bike and it requires different timing to effectively do an efficient preload.

It can jump but it is way harder and not as fun, after a year on an 22kg HP, I would say that this is just not worth if you like to jump and pop everywhere. The more rear travel you will have the more sluggish it will be, on my end 170mm is just sucking everything good or bad.

If you like to bomb everything and wants a monster truck, yeah go for it, in the end I found the HP pretty boring. At the very least even if you have great technique, you will trade comfort vs pop/responsiveness/playfulness.

On an analog I really like it, but be careful with what you wish for.

I can only speak from the perspective of my findings on the Core as its my only ever HP bike. To me it feels like it's very happy to ping off anything and that's my idea of poppy

 

[Highland Wheels]

HP is not poppy at all, it suck out the life of any bike and it requires different timing to effectively do an efficient preload.

It can jump but it is way harder and not as fun, after a year on an 22kg HP, I would say that this is just not worth if you like to jump and pop everywhere. The more rear travel you will have the more sluggish it will be, on my end 170mm is just sucking everything good or bad.

If you like to bomb everything and wants a monster truck, yeah go for it, in the end I found the HP pretty boring. At the very least even if you have great technique, you will trade comfort vs pop/responsiveness/playfulness.

On an analog I really like it, but be careful with what you wish for.

What HP did you have?

 

[Hoverp]

Its probably worth noting that mid pivot is a nice compromise between standard designs and high pivots. You get a good chunk of that nice square edge hit absorbtion, but not as much of the negatives of high pivot.

so that being said, how far away from the BB center does the upper pivot need to be to be considered High vs Mid?

 

[whitymon]

What HP did you have?

Got the slash plus.

I do understand, reviews by people sponsored, wanting to make tons of views or a living, having great/excellent technique, riding it only a few times - they are all irrelevant to real world user like me.

Like I said, I just give my opinion one 1 year on it. The HP is excellent for DH/bike park/Drop, but boring and not as fun for jumping as it requires so much effort to put into it compared to other bikes.

So on my end I would like to sell it asap, but let's be honest 20-22kg for an SL HP 50nm, no one is in this market anymore, I hope to sell it ASAP but I have 0% hope.

That said, again, to bomb a trail and be first down I failed to see any better bike.

 

[elvendawn]

Got the slash plus.

I do understand, reviews by people sponsored, wanting to make tons of views or a living, having great/excellent technique, riding it only a few times - they are all irrelevant to real world user like me.

Like I said, I just give my opinion one 1 year on it. The HP is excellent for DH/bike park/Drop, but boring and not as fun for jumping as it requires so much effort to put into it compared to other bikes.

So on my end I would like to sell it asap, but let's be honest 20-22kg for an SL HP 50nm, no one is in this market anymore, I hope to sell it ASAP but I have 0% hope.

That said, again, to bomb a trail and be first down I failed to see any better bike.

As a person who has bought multiple HP trail bikes with my own money, don't own a yt channel, don't make money by saying this, and don't care what you ride, I can say definitively your experience doesn't match mine. I've had no issues jumping coming from non HP bikes, and they are similarly willing to play around on the trails, heck jumping is so much easier than my last few bikes on the Druid CorE. HP is mostly just about axle path and decoupling chain forces on suspension, I suggest looking into your suspension setup to be more playful, IE: less sag.

 

[whitymon]

As a person who has bought multiple HP trail bikes with my own money, don't own a yt channel, don't make money by saying this, and don't care what you ride, I can say definitively your experience doesn't match mine. I've had no issues jumping coming from non HP bikes, and they are similarly willing to play around on the trails, heck jumping is so much easier than my last few bikes on the Druid CorE. HP is mostly just about axle path and decoupling chain forces on suspension, I suggest looking into your suspension setup to be more playful, IE: less sag.

Well, I had several HP analog and the slash+ (170/170) was the first emtb HP I got so like I said it can only relate to what I experience and got.

Maybe the slash+ long travel ebike, geo is also playing in that favor, which is what I said earlier, Druid is a little kid in comparison to the slash+ which might be also a reason of what you feel. Unfortunately, I have no way to test the eDruid, if I could tell you who's fault, me/geo/bike.

At the very least, a HP cannot help jumping because it compress during transition and suck part of the energy you put into it, on that I am definitely 99.9% sure.

I tried switching to different shock, current one is the vivid ultimate airshock which is at the moment the best I could get my hands on. Maybe there is something I could do over it, I tried less sag, token, the only thing I did not do was re-thune it. Don't have the time, knowledge nor shop to do so.

The only thing I know for sure, put of the Box, when I tried one of my fiend bike, Pivot Shuttle LT 170/160 airshock, it was significantly better by a huge margin.

 

[Plummet]

Well, I had several HP analog and the slash+ (170/170) was the first emtb HP I got so like I said it can only relate to what I experience and got.

Maybe the slash+ long travel ebike, geo is also playing in that favor, which is what I said earlier, Druid is a little kid in comparison to the slash+ which might be also a reason of what you feel. Unfortunately, I have no way to test the eDruid, if I could tell you who's fault, me/geo/bike.

At the very least, a HP cannot help jumping because it compress during transition and suck part of the energy you put into it, on that I am definitely 99.9% sure.

I tried switching to different shock, current one is the vivid ultimate airshock which is at the moment the best I could get my hands on. Maybe there is something I could do over it, I tried less sag, token, the only thing I did not do was re-thune it. Don't have the time, knowledge nor shop to do so.

The only thing I know for sure, put of the Box, when I tried one of my fiend bike, Pivot Shuttle LT 170/160 airshock, it was significantly better by a huge margin.

Whats your E bike experience? Maybe the jumping suck you experience is the weight of the E and not the hp its self.
Like Elvendawn I dont have a problem jumping my hp bikes. I actually like the way they jump.

 

[Highland Wheels]

Whats your E bike experience? Maybe the jumping suck you experience is the weight of the E and not the hp its self.
Like Elvendawn I dont have a problem jumping my hp bikes. I actually like the way they jump.

I find my Forbidden jumps way easier than my old Intense did tbf

 

[Suns_PSD]

I've never ridden a HP but where I ride we have endless chunk but rarely big sendy jumps and the like. My buddy bought some 120mm HP bike (Norco Sight or something?) and claims it's fast as heck here and so smooth.
For my pedal bike, I'll stick with a Horst Link, but I really want to try a horst link mid or high pivot for my next e-bike. Not many choices unfortunately but I'm hoping the Rogue works out. The VLT Sight is also up there.
Some of you might recall I had ordered the Antidote e-bike as it hit most of my personal bike desires but they ghosted me so I got my money back.
I do wonder if a standard four bar combined with a sidekick hub would accomplish the same thing at less weight and with more simplicity however.

 

[Chairman]

I've never ridden a HP but where I ride we have endless chunk but rarely big sendy jumps and the like. My buddy bought some 120mm HP bike (Norco Sight or something?) and claims it's fast as heck here and so smooth.
For my pedal bike, I'll stick with a Horst Link, but I really want to try a horst link mid or high pivot for my next e-bike. Not many choices unfortunately but I'm hoping the Rogue works out. The VLT Sight is also up there.
Some of you might recall I had ordered the Antidote e-bike as it hit most of my personal bike desires but they ghosted me so I got my money back.
I do wonder if a standard four bar combined with a sidekick hub would accomplish the same thing at less weight and with more simplicity however.

The Forbidden is right in its element in the chunk. I think that is what it was designed for more so than the big sends. I am sure there are those who will tell me it sends perfectly fine

 

[Plummet]

I've never ridden a HP but where I ride we have endless chunk but rarely big sendy jumps and the like. My buddy bought some 120mm HP bike (Norco Sight or something?) and claims it's fast as heck here and so smooth.
For my pedal bike, I'll stick with a Horst Link, but I really want to try a horst link mid or high pivot for my next e-bike. Not many choices unfortunately but I'm hoping the Rogue works out. The VLT Sight is also up there.
Some of you might recall I had ordered the Antidote e-bike as it hit most of my personal bike desires but they ghosted me so I got my money back.
I do wonder if a standard four bar combined with a sidekick hub would accomplish the same thing at less weight and with more simplicity however.

Rogue is 4 bar mid pivot. I good compromise i think. Set it up 172/180 and you will have a chunk munching machine.

PS velduro's are starting to proliferate I have seen two locally now.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The Rogue is in my top 4. Just awaiting the updated Avinox to likely move forward with that platform. If checks more of my boxes than any other platform.

 

[Highland Wheels]

What happened to the Bosch super efficency you keep banging on about?

 

[sethimus]

What happened to the Bosch super efficency you keep banging on about?

you are not allowed to mention that, it disturbs the forum for other users

 

[Suns_PSD]

What happened to the Bosch super efficency you keep banging on about?

Like I said, the Rogue checks more of my boxes then nearly anything else out there at the moment. It'll be interesting to see if the M2 corrects some of the current Avinox shortcomings.

 

[Hoverp]

Like I said, the Rogue checks more of my boxes then nearly anything else out there at the moment. It'll be interesting to see if the M2 corrects some of the current Avinox shortcomings.

what shortcomings would you point out?

 

[Emailsucks98]

High-pivots, mid-pivots, very different brands/suspensions/travels being discussed interchangeably here which is misleading.

A little suspension tuning goes a long ways. Adding 1-2 volume spacers (with the same sag%) transformed my Slash+ from no pop to plenty of pop. Between the frame and Vivid air there's at least 6 separate tuning variables, so lots can be done. But I wouldn't assume any of that translates to a Forbidden.

The main thing I would add to this thread, is don't judge a bike by 1-2 rides. It took me 6-8 rides to adjust to the Slash+, mainly the timing of pre-load as it affects the wheelbase length. And part of that adjustment was suspension tuning to get the pop & support back.

This is for an older 130mm druid, compared to the 170mm Slash+, but you get the idea- very different

Vs 170mm Trek Slash+

 

[Suns_PSD]

what shortcomings would you point out?

Not interested in covering this again.
I have my opinions and I think many members, including myself, are tired of reading them.
But you'll see known shortcomings at least partially addressed with the updated Avinox motor. Things are always moving forward, it's the nature of the beast and DJI is a progressive company interested in enacting improvements.

 

[Plummet]

Not interested in covering this again.
I have my opinions and I think many members, including myself, are tired of reading them.
But you'll see known shortcomings at least partially addressed with the updated Avinox motor. Things are always moving forward, it's the nature of the beast and DJI is a progressive company interested in enacting improvements.

You do run the risk of analysis paralysis. Particularly if you wait for the next big thing thats "just arpund the corner".

Ebikes are like computers. 5 minutes after you buy one then best thing is out and you are out of date.

You simply need to decide its time to purchase. Draw a line in the sand and purchase from whats available.

Otherwise you will ne forever analyzing and waiting.

Also regardless of when you purchase and how long you wait. Something will come out the you desire shortly after you purchase......

 

[Suns_PSD]

You do run the risk of analysis paralysis. Particularly if you wait for the next big thing thats "just arpund the corner".

Ebikes are like computers. 5 minutes after you buy one then best thing is out and you are out of date.

You simply need to decide its time to purchase. Draw a line in the sand and purchase from whats available.

Otherwise you will ne forever analyzing and waiting.

Also regardless of when you purchase and how long you wait. Something will come out the you desire shortly after you purchase......

While true, there is nothing out there currently that offers the combination of characteristics that I desire $8k more than my current e-bike.
I had an Antidote e-bike on order BTW with a 50% DP. So once I saw the right attributes, I'll spend the money for sure. Unfortunately they disappeared on me for months now so I had to file a PP dispute. Still bummed about that!
If I didn't have an e-bike that was working well enough for me. Than ya sure I'd get something bought ASAP.
I'll get a replacement bought in 2026 though for certain.
Since nothing out there really appeals to me, I've also been shopping used a bit, something I never do. So I could just liquidate it once I see something better. The right Wild or Regulator primarily. Regulator's hardly ever come up used btw, I think that they are the sleeper bike that is shockingly good even though it's plain.

 

[Emailsucks98]

At the very least, a HP cannot help jumping because it compress during transition and suck part of the energy you put into it, on that I am definitely 99.9% sure.

I tried switching to different shock, current one is the vivid ultimate airshock which is at the moment the best I could get my hands on. Maybe there is something I could do over it, I tried less sag, token, the only thing I did not do was re-thune it. Don't have the time, knowledge nor shop to do so.

I do agree with you that mid/high pivots can flatten impacts out.

With the Vivid air on a Slash+, that's a double serving of trail flattener. With the vivid air, and the mega XL can on the SDU, I think Rockshox is going for massive tunability range, where 0 volume spacers is linear to a fault.

On the Slash+, I forget if I am running 2 or 3 spacers (180lbs rider weight) but the last +1 spacer just made the bike poppier. It seemed to speed up the rebound at end of stroke- without changing much else (given the same 28% sag)

Similar experience with the SDU on my other bike, volume spacers were the Rockshox cheat code.

All these reviews of the Norco Sight VLT, mid pivot- talk about how playful & poppy it is- usually with a super deluxe ultimate.

 

[elvendawn]

whitymon said:
At the very least, a HP cannot help jumping because it compress during transition and suck part of the energy you put into it, on that I am definitely 99.9% sure.

I tried switching to different shock, current one is the vivid ultimate airshock which is at the moment the best I could get my hands on. Maybe there is something I could do over it, I tried less sag, token, the only thing I did not do was re-thune it. Don't have the time, knowledge nor shop to do so.

What you describe is just any suspension... any rear travel with dampers in the mix is going absorb some of your energy. Rearward axle path will not affect how much energy returns any differently that any other axle path with any significance, and the contrary the HP with an idler will help separate the chain forces from the suspension so that it can move more freely and thus return with more energy (less loss), although I doubt it's that significant either. What really zaps the energy is compression and rebound damping, doing exactly what's designed to do, I suggest looking at reducing the damping as best you can for your setup and weight for best results. Also adequate spring rate, 25% is a really good sag number I've found for great jumping performance. Additionally consider coils, stiction from air seals will also create some energy loss, in my experience coils out preform air for jumping, both at 25% sag.

I get that rearward axle path changes timing of your push and pop, but so does a more forward axle path, there are basically no rear swing arms that go straight up the entire travel, it usually arcs rearward slightly than forward. Just about learning timing of your bike with proper suspension setup for you and can get almost any bike to jump pretty well.

I do agree with you that mid/high pivots can flatten impacts out.

With the Vivid air on a Slash+, that's a double serving of trail flattener. With the vivid air, and the mega XL can on the SDU, I think Rockshox is going for massive tunability range, where 0 volume spacers is linear to a fault.

On the Slash+, I forget if I am running 2 or 3 spacers (180lbs rider weight) but the last +1 spacer just made the bike poppier. It seemed to speed up the rebound at end of stroke- without changing much else (given the same 28% sag)

Similar experience with the SDU on my other bike, volume spacers were the Rockshox cheat code.

All these reviews of the Norco Sight VLT, mid pivot- talk about how playful & poppy it is- usually with a super deluxe ultimate.

My Druid CorE came with the Vivid Air, I also have an SDU w/ XL can, I preferred the SDU more than the Vivid Air for jumping, but neither were that comfortable in the feet at 25% sag, SDU Coil at 25% sag is comfortable all day, eats chuck and jumps like a dream, bike is plenty playful.

 

[ntm95]

I'd beg to differ re high pivots not being for tight stuff. The lack of maneuverability of the forbidden bikes is a function of the stupid long chainstays that extend even further under load. For that reason I will never own a forbidden bike. Chainstay length is way past my optimal in my size even before the high pivot growth.

Claymore is playful and fun through the tight. I ride a lot of tight on that bike and thats one of the advantages for me. Shorter chainstay in the tight slow when the suspension isn't loaded hard, then fang a speed, you get the extending chainstay for good stability.

So..... it will depend on the design and geo as to whether its good in tight or not.

Personally my enthusiasm for high dropping. I actually prefer the vpp on the Crestline. I just feel more connected on the vpp. . The high pivot extending chainstay is great st absorbing square edged bumps but I dont like the vagueness of that extending chainstay manualling as wheelieing.

With that said I dont mind the mid pivot of the trek session I have. That's a good compromise between chain. Growth and feeling more connected.

I won't go high pivot on the next bike. Particularly on my mtb, I really dont like the loss of pedaling efficiency of adding that extra roller.

I didn't say that high pivots aren't good for tight stuff. I don't think it matters. Tight stuff is more about overall wheelbase length, and steeper head tube angles.
Nor do I think that forbidden bikes are not maneuverable, the "stupid long" chainstay is exactly why they're maneuverable. Those chainstays provide superior front end grip without requiring time consuming shifts of the riders mass.
The claymore mx was decent in slower tight corners, but not great at speed. Any of the forbidden v2 bikes will positively tear it's pants off in any corner approached with speed. So one's definition of "maneuverability" matters.
Interestingly, the claymore feels like a high pivot bike, in the corners and in a straight line. The forbidden v2's do not, other than the extra drag and noise from the hp driveline.
I agree wholeheartedly that high pivot is not something I will seek out in bikes either.
I am a fan of the forbidden's entirely due to the f/r ratios/geo. If you haven't tried one, it might change your mind, particularly if you give it a few days to break old habits of driving the bike with your arms/back in corners.
Your long chainstay experiences with the voima are largely irrelevant, that particular bike has some pretty wacky geometry. It was a bold attempt, and a big miss by the designer.

 

[Plummet]

I didn't say that high pivots aren't good for tight stuff. I don't think it matters. Tight stuff is more about overall wheelbase length, and steeper head tube angles.
Nor do I think that forbidden bikes are not maneuverable, the "stupid long" chainstay is exactly why they're maneuverable. Those chainstays provide superior front end grip without requiring time consuming shifts of the riders mass.
The claymore mx was decent in slower tight corners, but not great at speed. Any of the forbidden v2 bikes will positively tear it's pants off in any corner approached with speed. So one's definition of "maneuverability" matters.
Interestingly, the claymore feels like a high pivot bike, in the corners and in a straight line. The forbidden v2's do not, other than the extra drag and noise from the hp driveline.
I agree wholeheartedly that high pivot is not something I will seek out in bikes either.
I am a fan of the forbidden's entirely due to the f/r ratios/geo. If you haven't tried one, it might change your mind, particularly if you give it a few days to break old habits of driving the bike with your arms/back in corners.
Your long chainstay experiences with the voima are largely irrelevant, that particular bike has some pretty wacky geometry. It was a bold attempt, and a big miss by the designer.

What size do you run? I wonder if your worse experience than mine with the claymore is on a larger size frame where the fc:rc ratio is more out of wack.

I dont have any problems with the Claymore at speed and dont want for any more stability. Nor do i want anymore chainstay length on a high pivot for that matter. I'm also looking in swapping that bike out for a Spindrift to get me some 180/180mm mtb with a good pedalling platform. I've had enough of high pivot pedal suck and manualling suck on the mtb.

I wont be embarking on a forbidden journey thats for sure, Their geo and travel is so far out from what i enjoy its not even worth considering.

 

[Highland Wheels]

What size do you run? I wonder if your worse experience than mine with the claymore is on a larger size frame where the fc:rc ratio is more out of wack.

I dont have any problems with the Claymore at speed and dont want for any more stability. Nor do i want anymore chainstay length on a high pivot for that matter. I'm also looking in swapping that bike out for a Spindrift to get me some 180/180mm mtb with a good pedalling platform. I've had enough of high pivot pedal suck and manualling suck on the mtb.

I wont be embarking on a forbidden journey thats for sure, Their geo and travel is so far out from what i enjoy its not even worth considering.

I'd still try demo one if you get the chance. You might be surpised even if the numbers on paper arn't what you "like"

 

[Hoverp]

I didn't say that high pivots aren't good for tight stuff. I don't think it matters. Tight stuff is more about overall wheelbase length, and steeper head tube angles.
Nor do I think that forbidden bikes are not maneuverable, the "stupid long" chainstay is exactly why they're maneuverable. Those chainstays provide superior front end grip without requiring time consuming shifts of the riders mass.
The claymore mx was decent in slower tight corners, but not great at speed. Any of the forbidden v2 bikes will positively tear it's pants off in any corner approached with speed. So one's definition of "maneuverability" matters.
Interestingly, the claymore feels like a high pivot bike, in the corners and in a straight line. The forbidden v2's do not, other than the extra drag and noise from the hp driveline.
I agree wholeheartedly that high pivot is not something I will seek out in bikes either.
I am a fan of the forbidden's entirely due to the f/r ratios/geo. If you haven't tried one, it might change your mind, particularly if you give it a few days to break old habits of driving the bike with your arms/back in corners.
Your long chainstay experiences with the voima are largely irrelevant, that particular bike has some pretty wacky geometry. It was a bold attempt, and a big miss by the designer.

I own and race Vikkela K3 from Polè,(analog) - Yes I know this is not E But the Voima shares same geo just more weight. I would disagree with your comment and your statement about wacky geo after spending 2 years racing abord the Polè. If you look at the trend now Polè was at the leading edge of this, my bike is longer overall than most enduro bikes, but the FC and RC is really well balanced, the 80* seat tube angle puts you in a VERY good position for climbing , and works wonders with the long RC in the steep , its level BB takes time to get used to but has a ton of advantages, once you train your body to level up and tip in feet more level, cornering lean become intuitive and fast. Lack of pedal strikes and the ability to keep power down of very technical terrain is unmatched. the long head tube is great for a nice tall front end and is amazing in the steeps. the suspension platform pedals VERY well with great anti squat values and has great anti rise under braking. It's a very capable fast race enduro bike that also doubles as a really good all mountain machine . 36 lbs for a full setup race 190/190 CAT 5 aluminum bike is amazing. It does many things VERY well, and NOTHING bad. It's different and takes time to learn it, most people jump on it and dont get it because it feels so different to what they are used to feeling. and thats where they stop or thats where the review get written from that perspective. I have mine setup with a 190 Zeb, and run 191 out back with my Vivid. It friking works SO WELL.

 

[ntm95]

I own and race Vikkela K3 from Polè,(analog) - Yes I know this is not E But the Voima shares same geo just more weight. I would disagree with your comment and your statement about wacky geo after spending 2 years racing abord the Polè. If you look at the trend now Polè was at the leading edge of this, my bike is longer overall than most enduro bikes, but the FC and RC is really well balanced, the 80* seat tube angle puts you in a VERY good position for climbing , and works wonders with the long RC in the steep , its level BB takes time to get used to but has a ton of advantages, once you train your body to level up and tip in feet more level, cornering lean become intuitive and fast. Lack of pedal strikes and the ability to keep power down of very technical terrain is unmatched. the long head tube is great for a nice tall front end and is amazing in the steeps. the suspension platform pedals VERY well with great anti squat values and has great anti rise under braking. It's a very capable fast race enduro bike that also doubles as a really good all mountain machine . 36 lbs for a full setup race 190/190 CAT 5 aluminum bike is amazing. It does many things VERY well, and NOTHING bad. It's different and takes time to learn it, most people jump on it and dont get it because it feels so different to what they are used to feeling. and thats where they stop or thats where the review get written from that perspective. I have mine setup with a 190 Zeb, and run 191 out back with my Vivid. It friking works SO WELL.

The Vikkela in size k3 has a f/r ratio of 1.95, that's quite poor by modern standards. Most manufacturers target the 1.8 range at this point.
Pole makes this rideable by giving it a very long reach compared to the stack, bikes like the ibis hd6 use a similar approach. It will tend to pitch you forward on very steep stuff and have minimal front end traction if you don't ride it with a forward bias. That forward bias can be tiring, and put you in the wrong place in certain cases. I don't find it too bad on shorter known tracks, but it's not optimal for longer blind tracks.
The bb height being high, that's just straightforward physics, a lower bb always corners better, all other things being equal. Dynamic ride height is a factor there too, of course. So if you're running lots of sag it can be a non issue.
I can't speak to the kinematic performance, but it doesn't really matter when the geo is compromised already. I give Pole props for trying new things and pushing boundaries, others did follow suit to an extent, and since have course corrected away from the long reach, low stack, greater than 1.9 ratio experiment. The only manufacturers that have stayed with that design philosophy on newer bikes, tend to design bikes for slower tech oriented climbing and descending (Arizona), and have shortened wheelbases to accommodate that kind of riding.

I don't doubt the Vikkela does work very well for you, it's amazing what we can adapt to as individuals and still ride at a fairly high level. I have had similar ratio/geo bikes in the past and thought they were great, and was reasonably rapid on them. For myself the differentiator with geo has almost always been fast, loose corners with minimal support. I was shocked how much better it could be with a 1.8 ratio.
Unfortunately that revelation stimulated an obsession with needing to try every bike I could get my hands on.

Terrain is a huge factor as well, making certain highlights or lowlights of geo more or less of a factor.
Certainly, I have rode bikes that did well in Arizona that were pretty sub par in British Columbia, and vice versa.

 

[ntm95]

What size do you run? I wonder if your worse experience than mine with the claymore is on a larger size frame where the fc:rc ratio is more out of wack.

I dont have any problems with the Claymore at speed and dont want for any more stability. Nor do i want anymore chainstay length on a high pivot for that matter. I'm also looking in swapping that bike out for a Spindrift to get me some 180/180mm mtb with a good pedalling platform. I've had enough of high pivot pedal suck and manualling suck on the mtb.

I wont be embarking on a forbidden journey thats for sure, Their geo and travel is so far out from what i enjoy its not even worth considering.

I had a large claymore 29", and a large claymore mx.
If you were on a medium mx, that does explain a lot, the medium is around a 1.83 f/r ratio static, which is likely close to optimal at sag. A nice improvement vs the large frame.
A spindrift is right at 1.82 in medium.
A dreadnought v2 is 1.8 in medium, and has the same 445mm length chainstay as the spindrift. It could go longer or shorter by 10mm with the dropouts if you'd like. I agree that the drivetrain drag is a bummer with the high pivots, but as far as a pedalling platform goes, the d2 is better than the spindrift. On the 29" carbon I tried anyways. Both were better for drag and platform than the claymore. Claymore was better than both at taking the edge off of square edged chop though.
The spindrift and the d2 are actually pretty similar bikes in medium.

Summary: size specific chainstays for the win.

 

[Plummet]

The Vikkela in size k3 has a f/r ratio of 1.95, that's quite poor by modern standards. Most manufacturers target the 1.8 range at this point.
Pole makes this rideable by giving it a very long reach compared to the stack, bikes like the ibis hd6 use a similar approach. It will tend to pitch you forward on very steep stuff and have minimal front end traction if you don't ride it with a forward bias. That forward bias can be tiring, and put you in the wrong place in certain cases. I don't find it too bad on shorter known tracks, but it's not optimal for longer blind tracks.
The bb height being high, that's just straightforward physics, a lower bb always corners better, all other things being equal. Dynamic ride height is a factor there too, of course. So if you're running lots of sag it can be a non issue.
I can't speak to the kinematic performance, but it doesn't really matter when the geo is compromised already. I give Pole props for trying new things and pushing boundaries, others did follow suit to an extent, and since have course corrected away from the long reach, low stack, greater than 1.9 ratio experiment. The only manufacturers that have stayed with that design philosophy on newer bikes, tend to design bikes for slower tech oriented climbing and descending (Arizona), and have shortened wheelbases to accommodate that kind of riding.

I don't doubt the Vikkela does work very well for you, it's amazing what we can adapt to as individuals and still ride at a fairly high level. I have had similar ratio/geo bikes in the past and thought they were great, and was reasonably rapid on them. For myself the differentiator with geo has almost always been fast, loose corners with minimal support. I was shocked how much better it could be with a 1.8 ratio.
Unfortunately that revelation stimulated an obsession with needing to try every bike I could get my hands on.

Terrain is a huge factor as well, making certain highlights or lowlights of geo more or less of a factor.
Certainly, I have rode bikes that did well in Arizona that were pretty sub par in British Columbia, and vice versa.

Leo's bikes certainly are optimized for the taller rider. The bang on fr:rc in K3 proves it. He doesn't do shorter chainstays (well for the voima he didn't) for smaller bikes and the longer chainstay on K1 was sub optimal for me. I didnt like the 80° sta either. It made for a good pedal position on super steep climbs but too far forward on regular grades. 78° is a better angle i reckon. The suspension platform was good and stable at speed, but it was too long in the back for me, to wollowy and slow in the tight. But I was grinning on high speed straight line chunk.

 

[Hoverp]

The Vikkela in size k3 has a f/r ratio of 1.95, that's quite poor by modern standards. Most manufacturers target the 1.8 range at this point.
Pole makes this rideable by giving it a very long reach compared to the stack, bikes like the ibis hd6 use a similar approach. It will tend to pitch you forward on very steep stuff and have minimal front end traction if you don't ride it with a forward bias. That forward bias can be tiring, and put you in the wrong place in certain cases. I don't find it too bad on shorter known tracks, but it's not optimal for longer blind tracks.
The bb height being high, that's just straightforward physics, a lower bb always corners better, all other things being equal. Dynamic ride height is a factor there too, of course. So if you're running lots of sag it can be a non issue.
I can't speak to the kinematic performance, but it doesn't really matter when the geo is compromised already. I give Pole props for trying new things and pushing boundaries, others did follow suit to an extent, and since have course corrected away from the long reach, low stack, greater than 1.9 ratio experiment. The only manufacturers that have stayed with that design philosophy on newer bikes, tend to design bikes for slower tech oriented climbing and descending (Arizona), and have shortened wheelbases to accommodate that kind of riding.

I don't doubt the Vikkela does work very well for you, it's amazing what we can adapt to as individuals and still ride at a fairly high level. I have had similar ratio/geo bikes in the past and thought they were great, and was reasonably rapid on them. For myself the differentiator with geo has almost always been fast, loose corners with minimal support. I was shocked how much better it could be with a 1.8 ratio.
Unfortunately that revelation stimulated an obsession with needing to try every bike I could get my hands on.

Terrain is a huge factor as well, making certain highlights or lowlights of geo more or less of a factor.
Certainly, I have rode bikes that did well in Arizona that were pretty sub par in British Columbia, and vice versa.

I do like the conversation, I appreciate your reply as well. It certainly good to discuss ! That being said, I do think the added weight of an eBike down low changes the ride significantly , benefit in some areas and a detractor in others. Like anything everything is a compromise . Where do you think the TeeWing Flux large will land in your ratio.