The SL bike is dead. Long live the SL bike!

[Plummet]

Valid, but faster is only one metric. For best descending, or max vert/range, SL's with big batteries have some advantages.
And I can see where the PB reviewers (amongst others) mostly prefer meatbikes, because they already do 10k' vert days on enduro meatbikes- mostly beyond the range of ebikes.

There's just no way around it, it's down to personal preference, and horses for courses.

Also, supposedly the combined rider/motor wattage output from even the weakest eBike motors is on par with pro cyclists, for sustained wattage output. Getting used to more power/torque/weight is for sure a separate topic.

What range advantage does a sl with a 400wh have against my full power with a 400wh if i run in the same power output?
The only real advantage I can see is the 1.5kg weight difference which will give some additional range. But not a huge amount.

I'm interested to see some vert mters achieved on sl's so i can compare against my vert achievements.

I also think that pro-reviewers that are mtbers and don't own there own ebikes make fairly useless e biker reviewers. They are always going to gravitate to the e-bike that is most like and mtb. Kind of like confirmational bias.

 

[Emailsucks98]

What range advantage does a sl with a 400wh have against my full power with a 400wh if i run in the same power output?
The only real advantage I can see is the 1.5kg weight difference which will give some additional range. But not a huge amount.

That's a great question. What does this tell us about the range comparison reviews?

Surely someone should have already done a "which eBike has the most efficient range per WH" shoot-out- not just a boost comparison?

I also think that pro-reviewers that are mtbers and don't own there own ebikes make fairly useless e biker reviewers. They are always going to gravitate to the e-bike that is most like and mtb. Kind of like confirmational bias.

Lots to ponder there. Is it confirmation bias or just personal preference? Are eBikes less relevant for "professional cyclists"?

 

[Plummet]

It feels like I’m being antagonistic & just arguing against your points, which is not my intention but…

60nm & 350w in the TQ, if you’re consistently putting out that on a naturally aspirated bike, plus the human bit on top, you should probably be racing WCXC

I ride mine with a very fit friend (5.3w/kg) compared to my (last time testing 3.75, which in cycling fitness terms is still pretty decent) & I will absolutely slaughter him in trail, let alone boost.

Out of interest, I’ve done a comparable ride between the TQ & Gen5 Bosch, in similar conditions & im within 2kph. (21 vs 23) Granted I’m working harder on the TQ, but it is still massively faster than doing the same loop just under pedal power. For reference, it’s 30km & 1100m of vert.

I probably could crank my 60nm (eco) setting up to make it more grunty. But i've actually de-tuned it to be as close to mtb speed as possible on the odd occassion im on the E with others on mtb's.

My closest setting to the TQ60nm is probably my 70nm tour+ setting.

My point was that i want a step change faster uphill on the E or i'll just take the mtb. I'm not unfit nor have any condition requiring me to need a e-bike. I'm in it for more laps, more dh runs. more high speec race practice. I'm currently racing dh and enduro. So the purpose for me is to get 1.5 to 2 times the number for laps than i could do it i pedaled the same amount of time. When i run the E I can literally get twice the vert meters for the same time input.

Here's a comparison between a typical mtb and E of mine.
Note our riding is tech slow tight single track up and chunky tight tech down. So average speed is pretty low.
Also the mtb is probably slower than if i rode solo for the same time. I'd say add 2km on the mtb distance for a solo mtb session. With that said these days if im riding solo its on the E. Mtb is typically a group ride.

mtb group ride

E solo ride

PSS No way a 60nm would get close to 100nm gen5 going full pace. I can leave my 85nm buddies in the dust fully smashing 100nm. Either your fitter or lighter or more skilled or all of the above or you are running on fast open stuff close to cut out/ than or your gen 5 buddy is running a setting down so he doesn't blitz you too much...

 

[Scott_123]

Well I caved. Ordered the Amflow Carbon Pro. With $1600 off until the new year with free shipping it was too hard to resist. Should be in Saturday. Love my Canyon Spectral Onfly with the TQ50 and will keep it too. Basically the Amflow Carbon Pro weighs the same s my Canyon so I guess We are there already there with a very few offerings.

 

[Bmbatley]

Hi All. In the past I never really bothered looking sl ebikes do to living in Bristol, being a heavy rider and lots of hills. Riding from the airport to the centre of town the last 5 years. I would drive but do a medical condition I had to hand my licence in got a ebike(s) because I needed some of the independence and not relying on public transport. Had a cube reaction (bosch cx) then a reise and muller tinker (bosch performanceline) then a kalkoff (bosch performanceline), then a haibike trekking 10 (cx) and last full fat was a haibike trekking 7 (yamaha pwx3) I moved recently to Cheltenham, a much flatter location but living in a flat, the trekking 7 (27kg) became a pig to get in and out and living on the 3rd floor. Ended up getting a merida eone-sixty sl6000. Mainly how much lighter and it was comfortable to ride. And compared to previous bikes much easier to ride when the assistance cuts off. Depite the lower torque, it's the best ebike I ever own

 

[F4Flyer]

I have had two full powers and one SL (Levo SL 1st Gen). I def prefer the SL due to the superior handling. My trail are steep, tight and swoops or twisty even so full powers cannot be very effective anyway and often feel lumbering and clumsy. I do like my Shuttle AM I have now but will add a new SL soon.

 

[Scott_123]

2026 will be the year we will see if the SL business model survives. Manufactures have already hinted they are diverting SL R&D money over to full power because consumers overwhelmingly are speaking with their wallets. Until recently most full power EMTB were 50lb or more but that has changed with Amflow and a few others.

My Canyon Spectral OnFly (SL) weighs 44 pounds. My Amflow weighs 46 pounds (Full power). The Spectral in Eco mode gives me around 26 miles before it is almost dead (I weigh 196 pounds). My Amflow in Eco mode set at 65 Nm - 350 watts provides over 60 miles riding the same trail and route. I ride every day on a trail next to my house and with the Canyon I need to at least charge a small amount each day to make it on the next days ride. On my Amflow I can go at lest 3 days without charging which is a game changer. The icing on the cake is I have all the power I could ever want if needed.

I was in the camp of “an SL is all I need” and generally that is true but it’s obvious SL market will wither on the vine unless it can deliver a compelling reason for it’s existence. Right now I’m not seeing where the SL market can go which has a viable future.

 

[Suns_PSD]

If TQ would just bump the power up on the HP60, in combo with the efficiency, looks, sound, efficiency & 580w battery, that would be my motor system and I'd choose either the Trek or the Yeti.
But I need more than 350 watts at times.

 

[F4Flyer]

I do like the Trek and the Yeti. One of those would be my ideal eMTB. The full powers have way too much assist for me. Tuning it down is a fool’s errand after a certain point since we vary from a 2% grade to 10% grade.

 

[Fangs2k]

My Canyon Spectral OnFly (SL) weighs 44 pounds. My Amflow weighs 46 pounds (Full power). The Spectral in Eco mode gives me around 26 miles before it is almost dead (I weigh 196 pounds). My Amflow in Eco mode set at 65 Nm - 350 watts provides over 60 miles riding the same trail and route. I ride every day on a trail next to my house and with the Canyon I need to at least charge a small amount each day to make it on the next days ride. On my Amflow I can go at lest 3 days without charging which is a game changer. The icing on the cake is I have all the power I could ever want if needed.

Sounds like you’ve got the ‘best bike’ for ‘you’, which is all that matters really, but it won’t be the best bike for everybody.

I don’t think any e-bike over 38lbs is really an ‘SL’ despite whatever the manufacturers might call it.

My own Levo SL is perfect for me, covers all my ride routes with ease and it feels properly light which is the point really, regardless of the power (or lack of!). If it wasn’t light then it would be pointless and a similar weight full power and battery bike would be the logical choice.

But again, there are plenty of people in the market for an e-bike that is as light as possible and has sufficient power and battery range for a good day out, which is why they exist at all in the first place.

Some people will prioritise bike weight and handling over power and range, others will prioritise the opposite.

Perhaps one day we won’t have to as batteries and motors will become lighter, but until that day then viva la choice!

 

[nickf]

I was in the camp of “an SL is all I need” and generally that is true but it’s obvious SL market will wither on the vine unless it can deliver a compelling reason for it’s existence. Right now I’m not seeing where the SL market can go which has a viable future.

I think possibly the aspect I like most about riding my mid-power Fuel+ is how silent it is. Sure, being light(er) makes it nimble and the low(er) power motor gives a more natural (aka muscular) feel, but hearing nothing other than the sound of the tyres on the ground is just bliss.

But if full fat bikes can genuinely achieve the same low weight as the SLs, and their full fat motors can become just as silent, then I'd have to agree there would no longer be a convincing USP for the SLs.

However I think mid-power motors will still be around in the future because they have a valid use case in electric road bikes where the absolute lowest system weight is a premium.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The problem is that the entire weight difference between an HP60 to a Bosch CX is all about 1kg.
So then it's just a battery determining the weight difference between your SL or FF, minus that kg (assumes the rest of the bike is built to the same standard).
To top it off, all of the batteries gain density, as in less grams per kwh, the larger they get, due to one BMS, one casing etc. So even smaller batteries can't offer a 1 to 1 reduction in weight as size is reduced.
This is why the existing HP60 needs to become an HP75 with no weight gain, to become truly relevant. The good thing is that most of these motors have lots of room to make more power, the issue of course is heat. You can make a lot of power for a short time and be light (perfect for my short, yet intense climbs), or make a lot of power for a longer time at a higher weight.
Guys & gals would need to understand that going in.

 

[Emailsucks98]

The problem is that the entire weight difference between an HP60 to a Bosch CX is all about 1kg.

The motors alone is 1kg weight difference.
The TQ 580wh battery is about .2kg lighter than the bosch 600 and 1.3kg lighter than the 800.
So let's say 1.2-2.3kg total weight difference.

I think it's just trading range for power. FLOW reviews got 1962m vert out of the Slash+ (with the HPR50) and 1400m max out of the Vala. Another test got 2190m vert out of the HPR60. The Bosch CX is in a different category power wise, but also louder, doesn't have the easily removable battery etc.

 

[Scott_123]

I think possibly the aspect I like most about riding my mid-power Fuel+ is how silent it is. Sure, being light(er) makes it nimble and the low(er) power motor gives a more natural (aka muscular) feel, but hearing nothing other than the sound of the tyres on the ground is just bliss.

But if full fat bikes can genuinely achieve the same low weight as the SLs, and their full fat motors can become just as silent, then I'd have to agree there would no longer be a convincing USP for the SLs.

However I think mid-power motors will still be around in the future because they have a valid use case in electric road bikes where the absolute lowest system weight is a premium.

To my surprise the Avinox set to eco mode is quieter than my TQ 50 in eco mode on my Canyon. This I did not expect considering the Nm and watts is higher on the Avinox in eco. Auto is also pretty quiet, it’s only in Trail and Turbo you start to hear it some.

 

[nickf]

To my surprise the Avinox set to eco mode is quieter than my TQ 50 in eco mode on my Canyon.

That's pretty impressive, although I believe the TQ60 is "noticeably" quieter than the TQ50.

My Trek Rail has a Gen 4 Bosch motor that whines on the way up and rattles on the way down. It's very noticeable if you're aware of it, but I tend to just filter it out. However, the silence of the TQ60 reminded me of how much the motor noise intrudes on the "purity" of the ride. If manufacturers could put an emphasis on the purity of the experience rather than the easy to quantify performance numbers then perhaps we'd see some really appealing motor evolution.

 

[Fangs2k]

If manufacturers could put an emphasis on the purity of the experience rather than the easy to quantify performance numbers then perhaps we'd see some really appealing motor evolution.

A lot of e-bike people are obsessed with either power, weight, range, noise and aesthetics (Levo Gen 4 downtube anybody?), seems to me that fewer people ever mention how something rides (apart from how fast it is) or even the ‘purity of the experience’ as you put it.

Unfortunately it’s a relatively few posters on here pushing the same things from a bike point of view, the DJI/Avinox is the current darling of the EMTB forum ecosphere and we’ve got folks constantly kidding themselves that it renders true SL bikes obsolete. It’s a narrow gene pool.

All e-bikes are heavy bicycles, end of, a motor doesn’t change that, just masks it.

Your series of posts for me is one of the few times in a while somebody has talked about riding a bicycle from a perspective of anything other than power or ‘vert climbed’. Maybe that’s what some people are interested in the most, but not everybody is. Even our host Rob is chasing the speed/power crowd with his ‘Fast AF’ YouTube review of the Unno.

I know that trail riding is probably a ‘boring’ end of the sport, but it’s probably what a lot of people use their bikes for. Outside of bike park weekend warriors or our US members who live on mountains (and one or two under bridges!) that knock out 2000+ meters of motor assisted climbing before breakfast, what else is there?

What am I saying here? Just that I agree with you that it would be great if we could talk about how a bike actually rides, regardless of what powers it, and maybe even allow a bit of what makes riding any bike anywhere such a positive and great experience.

The direction of travel appears to be 120Nm/1000w in a 45lb e-bike, and the faster it goes the better. I’d suggest people are painting out a big part of the picture either side of that and there should always be room for all sorts of bikes to cover everybody’s requirements.

 

[ragetty]

The (big) brands’ common business model is to sell as many bikes as possible, and so they will support as many sustainably distinct niches as possible. Any number of factors might play into justifying those - demographics, rider type, geography, you name it.

If we assume 14, 19 and 23kg for comparable bio, SL (400Wh) and FF (800Wh) bikes …

An FF apparently still needs the build (frame + parts) to accommodate - this alone seems to currently account for +1.5kg over an SL. So an SL can always be at least 0.5kg (motor)+ 1.5kg (build) lighter? Decreasing battery *volume* may bring this down (reducing frame bulk), but increasing Wh/kg on its own likely not.

The analogy with a high power automotive engine that can drain the tank in 30 mins doesn’t work, because on the road you can fill up most everywhere - not so on the trail (see off-roaders with extra tanks). Selling FFs with >SL battery capacity helps to maintain the weight (=niche) differential.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

What am I saying here? Just that I agree with you that it would be great if we could talk about how a bike actually rides, regardless of what powers it, and maybe even allow a bit of what makes riding any bike anywhere such a positive and great experience.

Yes, why not have fun buying bikes, selling bikes but mainly riding bikes too!

 

[Scott_123]

My Amflow Pro Comp rides awesome. The Fox suspension is very good. This is actually one of the few bikes I ever sat on and felt no need to change anything. For their first time out Amflow hit a home run.

 

[nickf]

So I started this thread to see what other people think about mid-power SL bikes and whether they have a future or not. Lots of interesting replies and different points of view, and thanks to everyone for keeping the discussion polite and respectful of others opinions.

I've just stumbled on this interesting 2024/25 survey article by E-Mountainbike

EMTB survey and 2025 trend poll

Worth a full read, but here are a few survey results that relate to the subject of this thread. 17000 riders from 88 countries give their opinions. Perhaps the numbers will surprise you!

1 - seems that around 30% of riders are interested by lighter, non full-fat bikes in 2025.
(note: GAS = German, Austrian, Swiss riders. INT = international riders)

2 - natural feel, efficiency, low noise and physical discreteness seem more valued than just more power and torque

3 - less than 50% of riders primarily use more than Tour or Eco modes (which equate to typical SL motor power capability)

 

[Suns_PSD]

The motors alone is 1kg weight difference.
The TQ 580wh battery is about .2kg lighter than the bosch 600 and 1.3kg lighter than the 800.
So let's say 1.2-2.3kg total weight difference.

I think it's just trading range for power. FLOW reviews got 1962m vert out of the Slash+ (with the HPR50) and 1400m max out of the Vala. Another test got 2190m vert out of the HPR60. The Bosch CX is in a different category power wise, but also louder, doesn't have the easily removable battery etc.

Ignore those other things because the other parts, the battery, the bike chassis, even the screen can all me normalized to be exacly the same. Guys comparing the overall weight of an Amflow to a Trek e-slash is silly. One is a well built Trek with a magical rear suspension, the other is the Amflow that is built very lightweight more than anything else and some of them are now cracking. Let's just drill down to the motor weight and secondly the motor efficiency which effects how much battery you need to carry.

The issue is that the motor itself, is at max 1 kg lighter than a full power.

Also you are not trading 'range for power'. You are trading 'range for weight' because range requires more battery.

It does appear that the HP60 is very efficient (unlike the previous HP50 which was poor in this respect) and so that does have weight value too as you can ride further on a smaller battery. And to be honest the HP60 is the only relevant SL powerplant today. My own Fazua60 is (IMO) a dead platform (does work well for me though!) and the Bosch SX is loud with a small battery.

What I see is that many Avinox/ Bosch/ Brose buyers often state that they never use turbo mode. So IF the HP60 can become an HP75 and maitain the class leading efficiency even at higher support levels, then it really becomes a class leading motor for people like me that don't need 1000 watts, do care about weight, looks, noise and a natural feel. Think of it like an SL version of the Avinox, really high power for it's footprint and size. Plus high efficiency and no noise.

 

[G-Sport]

The problem is that the entire weight difference between an HP60 to a Bosch CX is all about 1kg.
So then it's just a battery determining the weight difference between your SL or FF, minus that kg (assumes the rest of the bike is built to the same standard).
To top it off, all of the batteries gain density, as in less grams per kwh, the larger they get, due to one BMS, one casing etc. So even smaller batteries can't offer a 1 to 1 reduction in weight as size is reduced.
This is why the existing HP60 needs to become an HP75 with no weight gain, to become truly relevant. The good thing is that most of these motors have lots of room to make more power, the issue of course is heat. You can make a lot of power for a short time and be light (perfect for my short, yet intense climbs), or make a lot of power for a longer time at a higher weight.
Guys & gals would need to understand that going in.

You say this like 1kg isn't a big deal? To save this in other components requires serious outlay of cash or compromises on performance or both.
IF FF bikes can get down to the 18kgs of a well spec'd SL then I'd still rather have whatever weight saving this could translate into on an SL.
I can totally understand how a FF ebike can be fun because of the power and uphill flow etc. And as weights come down and I get older; there may well, one day, be an argument that that's all I will want.
But right now, I want the lowest possible weight, to still get a reasonable workout by doing a significant amount of the work myself, but to speed up the climbs and fit in more descents. An SL is the right tool for this. I'm fairly happy with the 35Nm of my gen 1 Levo SL (which spends most of it's time in Eco or Trail (or micro tune) so even less than this), going to the 50 or 60 of more modern motors seems like more than enough for my next bike.

 

[shenzi105]

Does TQ also release NM/watts software updates throughout the Life span of their motos, like Bosch and other manufacturers do?

 

[Mteam]

Does TQ also release NM/watts software updates throughout the Life span of their motos, like Bosch and other manufacturers do?

They have not done this so far with the hpr50 and hpr60.

I like the tq motors, they're great in many aspects that are important to me, I'm just not sure they're reliable enough yet.

 

[CoolDown]

Hello, here's my contribution and the evolution of my mindset that has led me to SL.

My first e-bike was a Canyon Spectral On with the monstrous 900Wh battery. I thought, "Wow, such a big battery is awesome!" That triggered the purchase... and less than a year later, it also triggered the sale!
It was a tank alway turbo mode ! That wasn't specialy the spirit of mountain biking, I need to feel the ground !

The next one was the Scor 4060Z, bought for its playful handling and it's a 720Wh battery, Trail/eco mode.
It was great, I loved it, but it was still heavy (23.8kg). So I fitted a 504Wh battery (22.5kg) and use eco/trail mode, perfect for local trails. Cool, but I had to alternate between two 504Wh batteries for long rides...

Now I'm selling it. Why ?

I'm fed up with the race for power and marketing ; when the hype goes one way (100000w motor), by nature now I go in the opposite direction, Shimano EP801 was good, but soon people won't care anymore; they'll only care about Avinox.

I'm in decent shape, but not quite to the point of using a TQ for technical sections.

So I opted for a Mondraker SLY RR with Bosch SX motor (400W battery), 160mm-150mm travel, "slim" shape, "cheap".
It's a special bike, it's somewhere in between SL and Mid I love this kind of unclassifiable thing.

Perfect for local trails, perfect for mid-range rides with the extender(s), plenty of peak power / overrun for tackling obstacles.
I know 20kg is not specialy light, maybe I'm wrong, but for now the compromise is good for me (and the price too!).


What exactly is SL/MID/FULL now ? It changes every two weeks....
SO here I am on my SL+

 

[Emailsucks98]

Ignore those other things because the other parts, the battery,

This is exactly the point though. Motors optimized for higher torque & output require larger batteries to get equivalent range. The larger battery increases the system weight. Then every other part of the bike gets heavier to deal with the power, torque, weight.

I would really like to see some bike reviews compare range and ride feel with these higher power motors used exclusively at low assist. I searched and couldn't find any Vala/Regulator reviews that talked about maximum vert without a range extender.

Accept that some people just don't want boost mode power/torque/speed. If SL bikes disappeared, these people will probably just go back to meat bikes.

I like the tq motors, they're great in many aspects that are important to me, I'm just not sure they're reliable enough yet.

I agree with this about the TQ. The bike reviews focus on motor power, we need to be talking about the long-term ownership experience- not just the motor but the entire bike.

 

[irie]

... we need to be talking about the long-term ownership experience- not just the motor but the entire bike.

Agree with you.

 

[shenzi105]

what are the real difference between the TQ HPR60 and the Bosch SX, apart from, probably, better reliability for thee Bosch.
Am I wrong to believe that the SX demands a lot more high cadence, even in the 100, to deliver power, while the TQ delivers earlier, in a more natural pedaling way, as if one was riding a normal MTB? Also, from all reviews, the SX is noisy and rattling?
SO, more power/watts but more natural high cadence spinning on the SX? am I wrong?

 

[Scott_123]

Ignore those other things because the other parts, the battery, the bike chassis, even the screen can all me normalized to be exacly the same. Guys comparing the overall weight of an Amflow to a Trek e-slash is silly. One is a well built Trek with a magical rear suspension, the other is the Amflow that is built very lightweight more than anything else and many of them are now cracking. Let's just drill down to the motor weight and secondly the motor efficiency which effects how much battery you need to carry.

The issue is that the motor itself, is at max 1 kg lighter than a full power.

Also you are not trading 'range for power'. You are trading 'range for weight' because range requires more battery.

It does appear that the HP60 is very efficient (unlike the previous HP50 which was poor in this respect) and so that does have weight value too as you can ride further on a smaller battery. And to be honest the HP60 is the only relevant SL powerplant today. My own Fazua60 is (IMO) a dead platform (does work well for me though!) and the Bosch SX is loud with a small battery.

What I see is that many Avinox/ Bosch/ Brose buyers often state that they never use turbo mode. So IF the HP60 can become an HP75 and maitain the class leading efficiency even at higher support levels, then it really becomes a class leading motor for people like me that don't need 1000 watts, do care about weight, looks, noise and a natural feel. Think of it like an SL version of the Avinox, really high power for its footprint and size. Plus high efficiency and no noise.

“Many” of the Amflow bikes are cracking? Maybe do some research because it is 0.3% which is in line with most carbon bikes. Additionally; some owners contributed to the cracks by changing components where the quality of instillation was suspect.

 

[Scott_123]

what are the real difference between the TQ HPR60 and the Bosch SX, apart from, probably, better reliability for thee Bosch.
Am I wrong to believe that the SX demands a lot more high cadence, even in the 100, to deliver power, while the TQ delivers earlier, in a more natural pedaling way, as if one was riding a normal MTB? Also, from all reviews, the SX is noisy and rattling?
SO, more power/watts but more natural high cadence spinning on the SX? am I wrong?

I can tell you. My wife has the Bosch SX in her Canyon Neuron. I have the TQ50 in my Canyon Spectral. Her Bosch absolutely trounces the TQ50 even before the Bosch 60 Nm update. The only downside of the Bosch SX is its motor rattle when going over chunk. My wife plays music so she never hears it, but me being a retired mechanic hears it all the time. It is simply the gears engaging each other during bumps while coasting and has no impact on reliability.