MichaelT
New Member
Slash + TQ60 with 580wh is 20.8kg
The SL bike is dead. Long live the SL bike!
- Thread starter nickf
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Plummet
Flash Git
I thought long and hard about a mid power bike. But at the end of the day went for a full power with 400 and 600wh options then went on a weight weenie binge on the bike. I now have a full power bike i can configure as a mid power bike with the 400wh battery, get the playfulness and ride around in lower power settings and then if I feel need to go full brain melt, Chuck the 600wh and go full pace.
I have the best of both worlds.
I have the best of both worlds.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
that he can’t produce. but in february, when ebike-mtb released all parts of their comparison test, we will have DEKRA Stuttgart derived numbers. and he will finally shut up with his bs
- Thread starter
- #64
Certainly a good solution. The Crestline is one of the few no compromise lightweight frames out there that can support a readily swappable modular battery system. Maybe also the Whyte eLyte too? AAMOI what's your Crestline weight with the smaller battery?
It would be good to see other brand product managers implementing the lightweight modular concept. (The Gen 4 Levo is modular, but not exactly lightweight!)
It is, but if I want a big travel bike I want it to be full power. Long travel ‘SL’ bikes that weigh about a kilo less than my 800w Gen5 Bosch are pointless to me.
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What’s a 800w gen5 weigh now? My 750w gen4 pivot weighs 23ish, which is a comfy 4kg heavier than my longer travel KSL. The pivot is a lot of fun and great for shuttling, but you feel the 4kg.
Yeap, in a couple of years weight will depend on battery size and the size of your wallet!
Plummet
Flash Git
21.5kg ready to ride.
What bike is it?
You were legit ahead of the curve. This is the future imo.
With a full power motor not weighing much more than a midpower, the weight really is in the battery. Also the motor is located in a place where weight, is technically a good thing. Whereas the battery weight is not in a good location.
My SL is just enough for me most of the time, I but I have to run mine in turbo 100% of the time just to overcome the 44.5#s and drag. I feel that longevity would be improved by having a more robust motor instead, in a low- mid mode most of the time.
Obviously there is not even a proper bike yet, and the only announced battery option is inadequate for a full power, but that Maxon weighing only .1kg more than the HP60, with a claimed high efficiency, if it had a 500ish wh fixed battery and a 300wh RE, that's literally a SL and FF bike in one.
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Plummet
Flash Git
Personally i think sl's are becoming redundant with these lighter weight full power coming out.
If dji did a small battery that would pretty my kill the low power market.
The great thing about a lighter full power with a small battery is you can go ride it with minimal power input like and sl, get a decent run time but then you can power up for a few seconds to clear a technical section and power back down. I can get 3 hours out of my 400wh if I milk it. The bike is playful and fun and hard charging on the downs.
Or I can go full brain melt for an hour and anything in between.
Basically the light full power can do everything the sl does and then more.
The sl is limited to only pissant power output which limits where it can ride before tapping out.
One of the truly fun things to to do on an e-bike is to tackle the barely ridable sometimes not ridable steep tech. SL's cant get close to clearing what a full power can. They miss out on that entire experience.
If dji did a small battery that would pretty my kill the low power market.
The great thing about a lighter full power with a small battery is you can go ride it with minimal power input like and sl, get a decent run time but then you can power up for a few seconds to clear a technical section and power back down. I can get 3 hours out of my 400wh if I milk it. The bike is playful and fun and hard charging on the downs.
Or I can go full brain melt for an hour and anything in between.
Basically the light full power can do everything the sl does and then more.
The sl is limited to only pissant power output which limits where it can ride before tapping out.
One of the truly fun things to to do on an e-bike is to tackle the barely ridable sometimes not ridable steep tech. SL's cant get close to clearing what a full power can. They miss out on that entire experience.
Interesting thread. I think the SL market is very misunderstood and most who comment on them are not the target market…
I’ve come from a Spesh Levo SL and Kenevo SL, followed by a Whyte e-lyte Works with SX motor and now an Forbidden Druid CorE So I have a good understanding of the low, medium and full power.
The Levo SL was a tester for me which I enjoyed but found it was not ideal for the descending I wanted to do. I changed the the KSL and loved it. Had this bike for 3 years and only considered changing as more of my friends got full fats. Shame as it was ideal for me, got me up every climb I wanted and expanded my fun hugely as it descended so well.
Enter the Whyte and that was the real bridge between the worlds I was looking for. I could ride with full fats and enjoy longer solo rides. The only consideration was choosing when to fit the range extender. This bike handles so well, really had everything an analogue bike did, so playful and rapid around single track. Very capable of pretty much any technical terrain the UK. Bike weighed in at 20.5kg with good tyres and insert in the rear wheel. After the upgrade from Bosch the power became even more usable with 400% assistance at a lower cadence. Never felt like I needed more BUT, I still felt like riding with full fats on long weekend trips, I was a bit compromised on range. Not with most full fats, just the very latest.
There was something not sitting right with me and my group. The Whyte was probably the best of all worlds, lightweight (ish), great geometry that resulted in a great handling bike, more than enough power for me. But I was always playing with the power settings when out without the RE fitted. Whyte did a fantastic job of placing the RE is such a low place that it had no impact on the handling.
Then came and opportunity to snag a Forbidden as a cancelled order so it was just there, in the shop, ready to go….. Couldn’t walk away from that
The power delivery of the Avinox motor is insane and not what I needed at all. The bike weighs 23.5kgs and those 3kgs are noticeable compared to the Whyte but it’s also built and targeted at a different discipline, type of riding. Back to the motor. Avinox tune this by default in a very crazy way in my opinion, it has huge assistance with barely any rider input. I spent my first few rides detuning it down to a level that worked for me.
So all my bikes have been between 19-23kgs but ride in very different ways. The Levo SL and Whyte were quite similar in style but the Whyte was an improvement in every way without losing the ‘trail bike’ feel. The Whyte was far more capable than the LSL but could happily perform in the same way, nimble whilst being capable. The KSL and Druid are also quite similar in bike feel but worlds apart in motor performance. I really wouldn’t want a bike with more weight than the Druid as that starts to become a stream roller on descents. I can still control the weight of the Druid on the DH sections but you do notice the extra effort required. I would like to try the Druid with the 600wh battery as I think that will make a huge difference to the agility of the bike.
I think there is still a purpose for SL or mid powered bikes but the current arms race, acceptance of weight and peoples need to put the least amount of effort in to do laps will limit there market share. I would have stayed with the Whyte and had no interest in the Amflow as I think the bike design is not much different to my very old LSL. I was only interested in the Forbidden for the bike and not the motor.
However, I appreciate I am in the minority, along with other SL/mid powered bikes owners / buyers.
I’ve come from a Spesh Levo SL and Kenevo SL, followed by a Whyte e-lyte Works with SX motor and now an Forbidden Druid CorE So I have a good understanding of the low, medium and full power.
The Levo SL was a tester for me which I enjoyed but found it was not ideal for the descending I wanted to do. I changed the the KSL and loved it. Had this bike for 3 years and only considered changing as more of my friends got full fats. Shame as it was ideal for me, got me up every climb I wanted and expanded my fun hugely as it descended so well.
Enter the Whyte and that was the real bridge between the worlds I was looking for. I could ride with full fats and enjoy longer solo rides. The only consideration was choosing when to fit the range extender. This bike handles so well, really had everything an analogue bike did, so playful and rapid around single track. Very capable of pretty much any technical terrain the UK. Bike weighed in at 20.5kg with good tyres and insert in the rear wheel. After the upgrade from Bosch the power became even more usable with 400% assistance at a lower cadence. Never felt like I needed more BUT, I still felt like riding with full fats on long weekend trips, I was a bit compromised on range. Not with most full fats, just the very latest.
There was something not sitting right with me and my group. The Whyte was probably the best of all worlds, lightweight (ish), great geometry that resulted in a great handling bike, more than enough power for me. But I was always playing with the power settings when out without the RE fitted. Whyte did a fantastic job of placing the RE is such a low place that it had no impact on the handling.
Then came and opportunity to snag a Forbidden as a cancelled order so it was just there, in the shop, ready to go….. Couldn’t walk away from that
The power delivery of the Avinox motor is insane and not what I needed at all. The bike weighs 23.5kgs and those 3kgs are noticeable compared to the Whyte but it’s also built and targeted at a different discipline, type of riding. Back to the motor. Avinox tune this by default in a very crazy way in my opinion, it has huge assistance with barely any rider input. I spent my first few rides detuning it down to a level that worked for me. So all my bikes have been between 19-23kgs but ride in very different ways. The Levo SL and Whyte were quite similar in style but the Whyte was an improvement in every way without losing the ‘trail bike’ feel. The Whyte was far more capable than the LSL but could happily perform in the same way, nimble whilst being capable. The KSL and Druid are also quite similar in bike feel but worlds apart in motor performance. I really wouldn’t want a bike with more weight than the Druid as that starts to become a stream roller on descents. I can still control the weight of the Druid on the DH sections but you do notice the extra effort required. I would like to try the Druid with the 600wh battery as I think that will make a huge difference to the agility of the bike.
I think there is still a purpose for SL or mid powered bikes but the current arms race, acceptance of weight and peoples need to put the least amount of effort in to do laps will limit there market share. I would have stayed with the Whyte and had no interest in the Amflow as I think the bike design is not much different to my very old LSL. I was only interested in the Forbidden for the bike and not the motor.
However, I appreciate I am in the minority, along with other SL/mid powered bikes owners / buyers.
I was a believer in SL's initially, but I'd have to agree with you. To be fair though, full power's were pretty clumsy just a few years ago.
Even if you are uber fit or live in a flat place, in time once available, a Maxon with a small battery would just make more sense for those wanting a more 'analog' experience.
Plummet
Flash Git
Imagine if you could cut 2kg out of the druid and run a 400wh..... Then you would be were i am. Well im 100nm bosch and 180/180mm but you get the jist.Interesting thread. I think the SL market is very misunderstood and most who comment on them are not the target market…
I’ve come from a Spesh Levo SL and Kenevo SL, followed by a Whyte e-lyte Works with SX motor and now an Forbidden Druid CorE So I have a good understanding of the low, medium and full power.
The Levo SL was a tester for me which I enjoyed but found it was not ideal for the descending I wanted to do. I changed the the KSL and loved it. Had this bike for 3 years and only considered changing as more of my friends got full fats. Shame as it was ideal for me, got me up every climb I wanted and expanded my fun hugely as it descended so well.
Enter the Whyte and that was the real bridge between the worlds I was looking for. I could ride with full fats and enjoy longer solo rides. The only consideration was choosing when to fit the range extender. This bike handles so well, really had everything an analogue bike did, so playful and rapid around single track. Very capable of pretty much any technical terrain the UK. Bike weighed in at 20.5kg with good tyres and insert in the rear wheel. After the upgrade from Bosch the power became even more usable with 400% assistance at a lower cadence. Never felt like I needed more BUT, I still felt like riding with full fats on long weekend trips, I was a bit compromised on range. Not with most full fats, just the very latest.
There was something not sitting right with me and my group. The Whyte was probably the best of all worlds, lightweight (ish), great geometry that resulted in a great handling bike, more than enough power for me. But I was always playing with the power settings when out without the RE fitted. Whyte did a fantastic job of placing the RE is such a low place that it had no impact on the handling.
Then came and opportunity to snag a Forbidden as a cancelled order so it was just there, in the shop, ready to go….. Couldn’t walk away from that
So all my bikes have been between 19-23kgs but ride in very different ways. The Levo SL and Whyte were quite similar in style but the Whyte was an improvement in every way without losing the ‘trail bike’ feel. The Whyte was far more capable than the LSL but could happily perform in the same way, nimble whilst being capable. The KSL and Druid are also quite similar in bike feel but worlds apart in motor performance. I really wouldn’t want a bike with more weight than the Druid as that starts to become a stream roller on descents. I can still control the weight of the Druid on the DH sections but you do notice the extra effort required. I would like to try the Druid with the 600wh battery as I think that will make a huge difference to the agility of the bike.
I think there is still a purpose for SL or mid powered bikes but the current arms race, acceptance of weight and peoples need to put the least amount of effort in to do laps will limit there market share. I would have stayed with the Whyte and had no interest in the Amflow as I think the bike design is not much different to my very old LSL. I was only interested in the Forbidden for the bike and not the motor.
However, I appreciate I am in the minority, along with other SL/mid powered bikes owners / buyers.
I agree, dji as standard is waaaaay to much assistance. But it can be detuned to similar outputs as the others.
Plummet
Flash Git
Yeah, My pole was in that category. Fun in a straight line but just a lumbering beast anywhere else and i hated the 25.5kg weight. I love the 400wh crestline weight. Its so much fun... even putting the 1kg more 600wh battery in is a bit of a bummer.
On a side note. Did a non scientifically significant dji-bosch test the order day. My mate detuned his modes to match my modes. 70nm/600w in tour+, 85m/600w emtb and 10nm/750w in emtb plus. He's about 4kg lighter than me. We finished the session I had used 408wh of battery and he had used 392wh. So given the rider weight difference thats pretty bang on similar efficiency.
A kg out of the Druid would make a huge difference and I think I could find .5kg just from the wheels. To me 400wh is capable but still gives me range anxiety. 600 is a great compromise and would lose just under a kg (900g) on its own but it’s more important where that weight comes from. I’m also interested how long it will take them to release the next gen batteries as this could get closer to 750wh range from a 600wh package….
Battery advancements I think is the most interesting development that can take place now.
- Thread starter
- #78
That is an undeniable point in favour of the lightweight full fat bike!
However, to advocate for the SL bike, I think that mid power motors can have a more natural feel than their full fat brothers. Although maybe the most recent ff motors can now replicate the same feel by means of the more sophisticated tuning options in their apps? A full fat motor with a truly natural feel would be hard to beat.
I would also have to agree with that.
And as someone who loves steep technical climbs I would certainly choose my Rail over the Fuel+ for the most challenging rides, although I was surprised at how capable the Fuel+ is. Having said that, I would guess that steep technical climbing is not on the agenda for the vast majority of eMTB riders!
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- Thread starter
- #79
Agreed. Both in terms of their energy density, but also their implementation as a readily swappable modular system (much as Plummet has with his Crestline).
That's a pretty solid efficiency comparison really. There have been updates to the DJI, then Avonix along the way. It's just hard to know at this point.
Thanks for both the link and the test I'm 2-3 years out from getting an eBike. Big thing I was wondering about is the ability of mid power stuff for pedal assist climbing(which is the only I place I need or want it) for any substantive period of uphill work. It sounds like they are able to do the job given despite your health issues (I have a artificial aortic valve).
MichaelT
New Member
My kenevo SL with main battery out is 16.5kg which is how I ride when shuttling or 17.5 with extender battery only which is how I ride it most of the time, still a lot lighter and feels very different to full fat.
- Thread starter
- #83
I think it's very difficult to advise someone else whether a mid power bike will be sufficient for their uphill needs because we don't know how steep/technical your climbs are, nor how fit you are or affected by your heart valve. As Plummet said earlier, with a full fat bike you can pretty well get up anything, while an SL may struggle.
Having said that, I have been frankly astonished at just how much of my steep/technical climbs my TQ60 is able to handle, even with my own heart condition. If I had to guarantee getting up 100% all of it I would take the Rail. But someone else would point out that I could get up even harder stuff if I swapped my old Gen 4 Bosch for an Avinox motor. There will always be a limit!
If you are currently riding a muscular bike I think you will be blown away by how a mid power motor can assist you. But if you also tried a full fat you would be even more blown away! Only you can then decide if the downsides of the heavier full fat outweigh its extra oomph.
I know there are many experienced full fat riders who try out a mid power bike and find they have got too used to the big power feeling. It's often difficult to downsize! But I personally am really enjoying the natural feel of the SL motor and the nimble bike, and the Fuel+ 580Wh battery means I never worry about range.
Hope this helps.
Hawk13
New Member
I do find it amusing that these threads invariably end up with posturing over which is better. It is all complete nonsense!
Everyone is different and has different demands and I have no intention of trying to justify my choice to ride an 18kg SL. (I am happy to tell you why I chose this route but would never suggest that it is best for YOU.)
In a world dominated by automatic cars and electric motors, I also drive a manual ICE because I want to and I enjoy....and that's all there is to it.
Everyone is different and has different demands and I have no intention of trying to justify my choice to ride an 18kg SL. (I am happy to tell you why I chose this route but would never suggest that it is best for YOU.)
In a world dominated by automatic cars and electric motors, I also drive a manual ICE because I want to and I enjoy....and that's all there is to it.
- Thread starter
- #85
Agreed!!! But we're all swimming in the kool aid here!
Well said
If you go back to my original post when I started this thread, the intention is not to convince anybody either way but rather to encourage people to try out an SL bike if they have the chance. They may be surprised to find that they really like it. I did!
I know they won't suit many riders, but it's interesting to hear other people's experience and understand what suits them and why. Thanks for your comments.
As these things are all personal, to me a 21.5kg 180/180 bike with a 400w battery sounds utterly pointless. The full power CX motor is THIRSTY compared to a mid power bike, and still weighs over 3kg more than mine with a 580 battery.
Personally, I feel power and bike type is a direction that’s more suitably linked. Mid power, mid travel bikes are a nice sweet spot for for what most people actually do when ‘mountain biking’ that aren’t a horrible soggy mess on anything other than flat out rock fests or fall line steeps
I can safely say I agree with the OP, I hadn’t ridden a lower power bike since my KSL (scarred me mentally
) so I continued to discount them, getting my kicks from the above, big travel, full power bikes (but with big batteries) or riding my naturally aspirated trail bike, which still bored me on the climbs enough to not want to do it. The mid power bike I bought on a whim as it was (relatively) cheap effectively ended riding normal bikes for me, other than outright XC, as it feels like MTB+ rather than full power, charging up hills on the speed limiter.I’ve been fortunate to ride the latest & greatest new full power bikes (Mith, Sight LT & Druid, G4 Levo, Crestline & a few others) & I wouldn’t take any of them with less than an 800 battery because they become pointless to me with limited range. Its been interesting to ride the TQ bike with others on full power machines recently, in anything other than turbo & riding the TQ in boost, if you are decently fit you can keep up, without turning yourself inside out & they will get similar range & elevation. of every motor system I have ridden recently (which is nearly all the main players) that little TQ is the one that’s impressed me the most.
Don‘t get me wrong, still won’t be giving up my big battery, big power bike any time soon, but I do ride it a whole lot less now.
- Thread starter
- #87
I love my old Rail. But I have a feeling I will be riding my new Fuel+ a lot!
Emailsucks98
Well-known member
100%. And I recognize that my preferences change annually, and by a lot!
Because chasing the same goals for 3-4 seasons (let alone 3-4 decades) gets stale. Trying new/different equipment, challenges & styles of riding keeps me motivated and stoked on cycling, one of the main things I love about it!
The mondraker crafty 2025+ can run a 800, 600, and 400wh (with adapters). Hot swappable.
49.5 pounds with a 600wh, ohlins 38, and ohlins coil shock.
Having rode both, the crafty gets the nod for handling and suspension performance over the crestline, even though it has less travel. Crestline is more aesthetically pleasing though, I think. Both great bikes.
It's weird that specialized is making their trail e-bike heavier and heavier, and abandoning the kenevo sl concept.
Plummet
Flash Git
Your've two arguments mixed into one there.As these things are all personal, to me a 21.5kg 180/180 bike with a 400w battery sounds utterly pointless. The full power CX motor is THIRSTY compared to a mid power bike, and still weighs over 3kg more than mine with a 580 battery.
Personally, I feel power and bike type is a direction that’s more suitably linked. Mid power, mid travel bikes are a nice sweet spot for for what most people actually do when ‘mountain biking’ that aren’t a horrible soggy mess on anything other than flat out rock fests or fall line steeps
I can safely say I agree with the OP, I hadn’t ridden a lower power bike since my KSL (scarred me mentally
I’ve been fortunate to ride the latest & greatest new full power bikes (Mith, Sight LT & Druid, G4 Levo, Crestline & a few others) & I wouldn’t take any of them with less than an 800 battery because they become pointless to me with limited range. Its been interesting to ride the TQ bike with others on full power machines recently, in anything other than turbo & riding the TQ in boost, if you are decently fit you can keep up, without turning yourself inside out & they will get similar range & elevation. of every motor system I have ridden recently (which is nearly all the main players) that little TQ is the one that’s impressed me the most.
Don‘t get me wrong, still won’t be giving up my big battery, big power bike any time soon, but I do ride it a whole lot less now.
One is riding a 180/180 bike travel bike V a shorter travel bike. The other is less power and weight v more.
So lets unpack this.
For the record i'm riding a 180/180 bike because that's what suits my preferred riding style . I'm an enduro and dh racer and want a dh capable e bike to get more dh and enduro laps. So when I looked at mid power or sl bike it needed to be a 170mm+ bike. A light weight 150/160 bike does not suit.
So.... when comparing bike weights we need to compare like for like Enduro bike to enduro bike. The KSL weighs 19.06kg without pedals and a air shock. Add an coil shock and pedals and we are 19.8kg. I'm running link glide no electric shifting so add another 0.5kg that takes the ksl to 20.3kg at my spec. So the gap is 1.2kg not 3 kg. The 3kg difference you mention must be a 150/160 trail bike with significantly lighted/weaker spec.
I was real close on getting one of the slash + bikes. But if i did that i would have given away the full power sessions with my mates on full power bikes and those are some of the best sessions. That was not acceptable so full power was the only way for me. Plus both almost all sl/mid power bikes have integrated batteries. There's no way i want to limit myself to the range of just one small battery.
You state that bosch CX is power hungry. I say no its not if you run it at at similar outputs to the mid power bikes. I can get 3 hours run time and 1000mtr vert out of the 400wh. Thats using a range of power settings and primarily climbing in 70nm mode.
Plus dont forget i also have a 600wh battery. So at any time i can run with full power guys for a decent run time. Then when we are at the bike park when i can loop back and change a battery out i can do a 1000wh day and run for longer than anyone on a 800wh battery.
Anyway,,, for the 1 to 1.5kg weight difference from a comparable spec bike i'll take the vast increase in options from a dedicated sl/mid power.
On a side note. How often do you a full battery burn on a 800wh or your 580wh? Why carry more weight than you need on shorter rides? I do quite often do shorter 1.5hr sessions. Its freaken awesome to be ripping the 400wh battery and lighter weight on a shorter session. I'll spec the battery to suit the ride. There's no way i want to lump an extra 2kg and of an 800wh battery when most of my sessions would only use 50% battery.....
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