Only thing that I wish the Amflow had.
Just tested 2026 Amflow Pl
- Thread starter Nomadic Dad
- Start date
Yeah. But then it wouldn't be as playful. I love how playful it is. That's why I'd probably just add a longer travel EMTB to my stable, as I get better.
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See this is what worries me. To use an example, does the Amflow end up being more like the Fuel EXE than the Rail? For me a 150mm bike needs to be a capable 150mm.
Don't particularly like either of those Treks and I've owned both, but seems like a relatable example.
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Hey look, maybe you guys are right. Actually, I hope so. But I clearly need a demo on some dirt to get my questions answered, I'm not going to work it out here, but cheers!
My mate has a Fuel EXE. The Amflow will be very much like the Trek, but on steroids. He is a better rider than me, but I can climb some technical routes he just cannot clear. And it's not just the power. It's the traction control like power delivery of the Avinox motor, because it has a 42 point sensor on the rear wheel, compared with the single sensor on the Bosch. Sampling what your rear wheel is doing 42 times per revolution, compared with once, vastly reduces tyre slip. Especially if it's greasy.
Also. The extra travel on the Amflow, means I can set my suspension up a little softer, because I have more of it, before I bottom out.
The Fuel EXE was one bike I was considering. But after riding my mates. No way. I'm not sacrificing that much climbing ability. With the Amflow. You don't have to.
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sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
Fast flowy downhill, to tight technical steep trails. I can ride to the American river and Salmon falls and Olmstead loop from my house
Downieville Downhill
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Hoot Trail
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Salmon Falls
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Olmstead Loop
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Bosch (and other motors) implement traction control in a different way, they don’t need the 42 point sensor ring, otherwise they’d have one.
The single wheel sensor on the Bosch is for speed, other parts of the equation are torque input, pedal pressure cadence and information from the motor IMUs.
Basically it does the traction control at the motor end, you’re not waiting a whole wheel revolution before it does something about traction.
it’s like comparing a Haldex AWD system to a Torsen Diff AWD setup on a car. They both do the job, just in different ways.
Look, e-bikes are heavy, we’re in the ballpark where you’re comparing the weight of two supertankers, but one has one fewer moons on deck…
With weights that close, I wouldn’t be choosing based on that alone. You’ve had advice and views from our resident Amflow boys, so I won’t add to those, and obviously you need to go and ride the bikes before you do anything.
But, something few people talk about when buying a bike is the emotional connection to it. When I look at a Santa Cruz I do feel the heritage of the brand, what it’s achieved over the years (as a Brit, Peaty’s World Championship on a V10 for one) and it just has a certain ‘something’. It’s been part of mountain biking for so long. I look at the Amflow and I see an appliance, a white good, a fridge if you like. Maybe something to consider.
That’s just me though, and I know the Amflow twins will hate me for thinking and saying it, it’s just my own view. The Amflow is a great bike, no arguments from me, but it doesn’t have that dash of special sauce that would make me smile every time I looked at it.
Listen. The circumference of a 29er wheel is over 2 metres. I've spent 30 years in the Drive Control Industry. No one can control a motor precisely getting one speed reference every 2 metres. The lag in the feedback loop would just be too large. Sure you use current draw as the wheel looses traction. But current takes time to build and fall in a motor, unlike the instant feedback of a speed sensor.
There is a reason they use speed sensors when trying to do Anti-Lock braking. Response from any other factor would be too slow.
BTW. The reason Bosch is not using the multi-pulse speed sensor, is because they are only using the speed sensor for speed indication and limiting. They are not using it as an encoder for precise control, like the Avinox Motor. Ask anyone from Bosch.
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I literally just explained how other sensors are part of the system, pedal pressure, cadence, torque input, it doesn’t rely on the speed sensor.
Even a car ABS speed sensor is but one part of the system, and besides which isn’t traction control anyway where some wheel slip may be desirable.
Ride a Bosch motor bike for any length of time and then you’d know it works. Jeez.
Pedal Pressure, candence, and torque input, is what the rider puts in. It doesn't help the motor control slip, like a speed sensor, unless the rider changes these inputs. Meanwhile a speed sensor can reduce slip without the rider changing his inputs. That's the point of it. That's why I install speed sensors on drive installations with varying loads. If load doesn't vary. You don't need them, because slip remains constant.
On a technical climb. The load is varying a lot. Hence why a speed sensor will help.
Have you ridden a Bosch CX bike more than around a car park?
If you have you’ll know that traction control is one of the things it does very well. I’m sure the Avinox does it very well too from your experience riding it.
It’s just wrong to say the Bosch only does traction control from the rear wheel speed sensor, it doesn’t, as I’ve explained.
Both Avinox and Bosch have systems to manage traction, they do it slightly differently but one isn’t necessarily superior to another which is what you’re claiming for the Avinox.
We agree here. Bosch do it by measuring current and voltage. But this is much slower responding than a speed sensor. As I explained. Current and voltage takes time to rise and fall in a motor, due to induced currents and voltages created by a rotating motor.
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I have actually never thought "I need traction control" on an ebike. I've sometimes thought "Oh I fucked up my weight distribution and spun out".
I dunno, all this traction control talk, next minute it'll be ABS (I know, it already has... smh).
How did you manage traction before e-bikes, when you didn’t have a speed sensor on the rear wheel?
The Bosch system tries to ape that, which is why it’s ‘natural’ feeling. Maybe it’s something about the way the Avinox delivers its power and the engineers decided that the rear hub ring was a requirement. Who knows, but they put it there.
The Bosch system isn’t inferior though, far from it.
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Yeah. And that was kind of my point, the Amflow is being touted as hugely lightweight full power bike but if the frame and spec was burly there wouldn't be THAT much in it. As we see with the Druid, it seems.
Yes it is inferior. A speed sensor or encoder is used in industry when you want precise control of a varying load. If you are trying to suggest that you can do it better without speed feedback, then it's pointless having this conversation. That is the entire point of a speed sensor or encoder.
I know you think you’re never wrong, but I’ll try one last time.
We’re talking about how Bosch and others manage traction in their bicycle motors, you know, for actually riding a bike, not your 30 years experience doing whatever it is in the motor control industry.
For that purpose, riding a bicycle, the Bosch motors do a fine job, and without the 42 point ring sensor at the rear hub. It’s not ‘inferior’ as it does what it’s meant to do and if you’d spent any time riding a Bosch equipped bike you’d know that.
Going out of your way to explain how the Avinox implementation of it was better than Bosch is just more Amflow hype and I was pointing out why that was.
I presume you’ve emailed Bosch and told them they’re doing it all wrong?
Only if you move with it.
People who think EMTBs in their current form aren’t mountain bikes are idiots, we know that.
At some point though, mountain biking will become off road motorcycling, and that’s not what I’m interested in, otherwise I’d do it (again) already.
This is your problem. You see everything as right and wrong. Bosch isn't doing traction control wrong. Avinox is just using motor control technology to do it better. Reducing feedback lag time will always produce a better control loop. If you cannot agree with this fact. Then I don't see the point discussing further.I presume you’ve emailed Bosch and told them they’re doing it all wrong?
At no point have I said anybody is doing it ‘wrong’, quite the opposite, I said they’re doing it differently and I explained how. The fact you prefer one implementation over another is just that.
I don’t see any point discussing it further either, you’re a forum hammer and any post not praising Amflow to the hilt is a nail…
Great. Continue to use the lesser product. I'm choosing to use the greater product. Both are certified as EU compliant. And that's all I'm concerned with.
I bet this post showing how much better the DJI climbs, compared to the Bosch CX, must be driving you nuts .......
"As I stated earlier
, there’s a technical hill climb (down hill for mtb) that I was not able to quite conquer with my previous Bosch Race Crestline. (Around ten previous attempts in 1st and 2nd gear)My FIRST attempt this morning with the RS181 I nailed it in 3rd gear!!! All the way up without taking a foot off the pedals, in Turbo mode."
Crestline x DJI - RS 181 SPECTRE Edition
I have both and maybe can shed some light. I live near Bellingham where these bikes were conceived and met both owners. My Regulator CX is now 160/170 with vivid coil. I upgraded the dropper to 210 from 180. With all these upgrades, this bike is super dialed and on the same level as the...
www.emtbforums.com
Great. Continue to use the lesser product. I'm choosing to use the greater product. Both are certified as EU compliant. And that's all I'm concerned with.
I bet this post showing how much better the DJI climbs, compared to the Bosch CX, must be driving you nuts .......
"As I stated earlier
My FIRST attempt this morning with the RS181 I nailed it in 3rd gear!!! All the way up without taking a foot off the pedals, in Turbo mode."
Crestline x DJI - RS 181 SPECTRE Edition
I have both and maybe can shed some light. I live near Bellingham where these bikes were conceived and met both owners. My Regulator CX is now 160/170 with vivid coil. I upgraded the dropper to 210 from 180. With all these upgrades, this bike is super dialed and on the same level as the...
You’re just trolling now, I’m well past such silly goading, enjoy what’s left of your weekend.
Mate. It's an Amflow thread. And I'm talking about Amflows. You don't see me stalking the Bosch threads, trying to push Amflow ? How's your record ???
Been rainy and rubbish here. Ride with the boys got cancelled. That's why I'm on here so much. What about you ?
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No, ABS is not like analog vs MTB at all. Or traction control.
Brake control, weight distribution are fundamental parts of mountain biking. These should only be inviting to those without skill. Even dirt motos switch their ABS off. Electronic suspension I reserve judgement haven't played with it could be good certainly if it includes self-tuning. Unnecessary $ for me.
eMTBs are inviting to those who don't want to maintain a pedalling fitness regime, especially through and after mid-life. Not wanting to build skills isn't (usually, hopefully) part of it.
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Just having a lazy Saturday morning over a coffee or two, as usual.
It’s school holidays here, will be out for a ride with the daughter later, taking her on her first forest singletrack outing, should be good. Will be on the non-EMTB though, human traction control too, wish me luck!
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