DJI Just Unlocked 1000W. What Now?

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Power Shift​

A few weeks back, the big names in eMTB got together and said, “Right, let’s not go over 750 watts.” It was all positioned about being responsible, protecting access, and keeping things feeling like proper mountain biking, and avoiding emtb's risking being reclassified into e-moto's.

Fast forward to now, and DJI have just rolled out a firmware update for the Avinox system. And it bumps the peak power up to 1000W. Quietly. No press launch, just an update in the app. And just like that, the debate’s back on.

Read the full article: DJI Just Unlocked 1000W. What Now?

 

[Weeksy]

DJI don't care about legislation, they care about sales, turnover and profit. Simple as that, easy. They are not in the business of justifying their decisions, just making money. Let the end-user deal with the rest.

 

[xtraman122]

Good write up Rob, they do make some good points.

I love the shot at Spesh with the comment about locking out extra power to premium models despite identical hardware…

Now we just need to hope we ever get these DJI based bikes properly available in the US (Without 900% tariffs).

 

[ZR1]

I don't think DJI have released anything against legislation? The nearest to that I've heard is the overrun being >2m.

Grey imports, VPNs and speed sensor hacks etc are a problem for all manufacturers can't really single them out for that.

I agree the 750w from the outside looks arbitary, it's just a number near to where the big players motors are.

 

[xtraman122]

I don't think DJI have released anything against legislation? The nearest to that I've heard is the overrun being >2m.

Grey imports, VPNs and speed sensor hacks etc are a problem for all manufacturers can't really single them out for that.

I agree the 750w from the outside looks arbitary, it's just a number near to where the big players motors are.

The only thing I can think of for the 750w number, other than of course it being in line with what Spesh and Bosch were already planning for, is that it’s equivalent to 1hp. Not that 1hp necessarily means anything either, but it seems like it might have clicked in someone’s head to pick a number that made the hp equivalent nice and neat.

 

[Deleted member 9676]

The 1000watt is an option,right? You don't have to use it on the public land, you can limit the power to the "legal" limit.

 

[rushy46]

As an SL - owner who still uses a normal MTb in bikeparks I am definetely not happy about this power race. With 1000 W you still try to pretend to be a Mountainbiker ( with assistance though) ? Are people who still call themselves bikers not happy with 85 NM which is still a huge help uphill? And what‘s next - 2000 W, 20 m overrun so that you don‘t have to use the pedals at all anymore? Just asking

 

[Cinderpath]

If Trump were in charge of the Think Tank….he would put a tariff on power above 750w!

That is the mentality I am gleaning from this discussion about watt limits. As someone who comes into the this conversation a bit late, and the eMTB world via interest in photography to get to locations, there was zero surprise for me DJI entered the market with an amazing product in its first launch hitting all the right notes: power and battery output and efficiency, battery power density by mass. Quietness, software integration, user interface, connectivity, the full package! It leads, and at above all, a massive price value! But for those of us in the drone world, this was expected. I bought my first DJI drone in 2017 and was shocked at what a well engineered, reliable product it was, and thought out down to every detail, yet still astonishingly they massively improve every product cycle? IMO DJI is the most innovative tech company, like Apple in the Steve Jobs days!

So the 750w voluntary cap for me is a pure ruse to stifle competition as the current kings: Specialized, Bosch, etc. simply realized DJI is going to be eating their lunch. This is merely a well-dressed form of market protectionism like when U.S. automakers tried to limit Japanese and European cars in the U.S. in the early 1980’s that were horribly inefficient, conveniently packaged as safety, conservation, and reasonable, self-policed “governance” designed by status quo, entrenched players! I.e The BlackBerrys who don’t like the looming iPhones….. in the end innovation always wins out, and protectionism inevitably looses to disruptive technologies. E-bikes are exactly that in the first place ironically?

The idea that a one-size-fits all power cap is absolutely ridiculous if one thinks about it? People have different BMIs and cargo haulage needs, and geographic constraints, so to make a cap based purely on what the current status quo thinks is “reasonable” amount of power is a laughable and a thinly-veiled attempt at again: market protectionism. DJI is correct: power needs are absolutely dynamic! Imagine if tractor makers in an industry trade group put hard-line limits on HP and torque? Great for those who farm flat fields with the same sized plots? How about an industry “Think Tank” by manufacturers putting limits on camera resolution on megapixels, because a new market player has a new technology?

As many really good, well thought-out commenters here have mentioned in another thread: there is already a massive cap in place: speed limits. Full stop! This is why 1000hp Ferraris are able to be sold: because they still have to follow speed limits, as everyone does. (Enforcement is another issue all together). And none of this addresses downhill speeds, which is conveniently ignored by the “Think Tank”, (but also pointed out by commenters here) that it is a far, far greater safety issue, making power-limit caps even more obvious what their goals are?

Further, the idea that restricting power output will somehow also limit the masses from experiencing more trails? That genie left the magic lamp a long, long time ago, but it’s also an elephant in the room….

If anybody that has experience with DJI knows, what they just launched was a tip of an iceberg of technical expertise and features to follow. I expect this year DJI will launch a road bike that will have Specialized and Canyon, etc shivering in their boots as well. Elites never cared much for democratization, and it shows!

 

[Regular_Michael]

A few weeks back, the big names in eMTB GANGED together and said, “Right, lets try screw over the new guys”

There.......... I fixed it : )

You cant stop innovation and progress, the big brands are just sad they were outplayed by China.

 

[Cinderpath]

You cant stop innovation and progress, the big brands are just sad they were outplayed by China.

Hey isn’t that what tariffs are for?

 

[Tim1023]

"What now?"
How about doing some doughnuts in front of the nearest police station?

 

[Emailsucks98]

Fair points in DJI's press release, but they do not address the primary concern; how will more power will affect trail access and advocacy?

 

[ZR1]

Fair points in DJI's press release, but they do not address the primary concern; how will more power will affect trail access and advocacy?

Would you be happier if DJI said 1200w should be the max to retain trail access? The power we have now far exceed what a human can sustain. Their point is there’s no basis for the proposed limit.

 

[Citylad77]

Nice Write Up Rob
Just competed the update, Motor feel smoother same for shift changes. Proper update DJI showing the others how to build an EMTB Motor.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Would you be happier if DJI said 1200w should be the max to retain trail access? The power we have now far exceed what a human can sustain. Their point is there’s no basis for the proposed limit.

I'm totally happy with 300w. I do get DJI's point and I agree the standard is poorly written, but that's a poor excuse for ignoring it.

THE INDUSTRY needs to propose a standard. Collecting input from Land management agencies (DNR, FS, BLM in the US) would protect future sales- if DJI ever intends to sell in the US.

DJI bringing up cargo and adaptive bikes but not addressing the trail access issue.... curious move. I'm not a drone guy (Nerd birds) but I wonder if this will play out similarly- sales industry pushes technological advancements, now drones are prohibited/regulated, or you have to get a license...

 

[ZR1]

I'm totally happy with 300w. I do get DJI's point and I agree the standard is poorly written, but that's a poor excuse for ignoring it.

Would you still be happy with 300w if you weighed twice as much? I think they should go with assist ratio limits.

A lot has said about the power as the be all but where does it actually make a difference? A 600w peak motor in the EU can easily hit 25kph on the flat so the biggest difference will be up steeper stuff that means you'll maintain a higher speed, which in term means someone coming the other way would likely go over 25kph.

Ok so acceleration will be higher but you hardly spend any time accelerating.

 

[Weeksy]

Would you still be happy with 300w if you weighed twice as much? I think they should go with assist ratio limits.

A lot has said about the power as the be all but where does it actually make a difference? A 600w peak motor in the EU can easily hit 25kph on the flat so the biggest difference will be up steeper stuff that means you'll maintain a higher speed, which in term means someone coming the other way would likely go over 25kph.

Ok so acceleration will be higher but you hardly spend any time accelerating.

If it doesn't matter, then why will so many muppets rush to buy it

 

[sharkimano]

Power Shift​

A few weeks back, the big names in eMTB got together and said, “Right, let’s not go over 750 watts.” It was all positioned about being responsible, protecting access, and keeping things feeling like proper mountain biking, and avoiding emtb's risking being reclassified into e-moto's.

Fast forward to now, and DJI have just rolled out a firmware update for the Avinox system. And it bumps the peak power up to 1000W. Quietly. No press launch, just an update in the app. And just like that, the debate’s back on.

Read the full article: DJI Just Unlocked 1000W. What Now?

1kw is fine to have but what's the use if you are speed limited to 25km/h !

 

[ZR1]

If it doesn't matter, then why will so many muppets rush to buy it

Fair point

I was thinking on what difference does it make to other trail users.

I'd favour a limit to the assist ratio (I think DJI is 8x when Bosch is 4x) so reduce that 'soft pedaling' up fireroads at max power which feels totally different to any non DJI motor.

 

[DirkWisely]

Fair point

I was thinking on what difference does it make to other trail users.

I'd favour a limit to the assist ratio (I think DJI is 8x when Bosch is 4x) so reduce that 'soft pedaling' up fireroads at max power which feels totally different to any non DJI motor.

On the other hand, who cares if someone soft pedals up a fire road? I'm pretty sure where I am you can ride anything on a fireroad.

 

[Arminius]

Well, in Germany for a long time there was a similar self limitation on max. 100 HP for motorcycles, I think until around 1997. Then it started slightly by one or the other brand to offer unrestricted / more powerfull motorcycles. Then EU regulations came in and today there are motorcycles on sale with 200 HP, running 300km/h and more on public roads. Even higher insurance rates didn’t keep people from buying these.
Not that I want to ban it, but riding on on a highway with a motorcycle 250 kmh can be a challenge. Not as it is fast but you have to take utmost care of other people driving cars or trucks and underestimating your speed when changing lanes.

As long as people ask for it and it will be a sales argument such non regulated limits will be falling like leaves in a autumn breeze.

But let‘s wait and see how drive train wear & tear will be increasing under such load.

 

[DirkWisely]

I wouldn't even mind a bicycle registration, with increased costs for e-bikes, if the proceeds all went to creating and maintaining bike accessible trails. I'd actually advocate for that.

 

[Emailsucks98]

We shouldn't need a power limit, because class-1 eBikes have a speed limit.

• But do the speed limits apply when you're coasting or descending? It's just the motors max speed, correct?
• Is 25kmh/20mph appropriate on multi-use trails?

What about 'soft pedaling' up fireroads (or any roads) at max power?

I don't think anyone cares, ride at whatever the max speed limit is, on any road. But once you get that same bike onto multi-use singletrack, people may complain, and we will lose trail access. It's already happening in some areas.​

​

What wattage/speed should the limit?

We keep debating this, but I really think the industry should be the one to figure it out. I think they should be engaging land use policy setters & advocacy groups- The standards may vary by country.​

​

DJI and Botsch have both said (I think) that nominal wattage isn't a good measurement. Why has been covered.​

I don't think speed limit works well either, once the bikes have so much power. I think what has gotten class-1 eBikes access to some trail networks, is the perception was that they are not (much) faster than meat bikes. Is that changing?​

​

What if the industry doesn't agree on a limit/standard?

Doesn't seem like this was much of an issue until DJI blew the doors off. Then specialized....who is next? I think Mike Kazimer had it right, this could harm trail access, at least in the US.​

​

@Rob Rides EMTB it would be awesome journalism to look at how the moto & drone industries navigated regulation. What worked & what didn't? How were their sales affected by access & regulation?​

 

[MarkE192]

The current DJI motor in both its original form and with the new update are not an option for me here in California. The new ebike regulations make it clear that if the power exceeds 750 watts it is now longer classified as an ebike and as such would be illegal on the local trails I enjoy. To be honest this does not bother me at all. I think more power may be fun but not worth the potential of losing access to all the wonderful trails in my area. At some point a line must be drawn in the sand because once that access is taken away it is never coming back.

 

[d3ftone]

DJI don't care about legislation, they care about sales, turnover and profit. Simple as that, easy. They are not in the business of justifying their decisions, just making money. Let the end-user deal with the rest.

You could swap out "dji" and literally put anything in its place though

 

[irie]

You could swap out "dji" and literally put anything in its place though

The difference between DJI and other motor manufacturers is that DJI are trying to carve out market share where they had none before, and unsurprisingly don't care how they do it.

 

[DirkWisely]

The current DJI motor in both its original form and with the new update are not an option for me here in California. The new ebike regulations make it clear that if the power exceeds 750 watts it is now longer classified as an ebike and as such would be illegal on the local trails I enjoy. To be honest this does not bother me at all. I think more power may be fun but not worth the potential of losing access to all the wonderful trails in my area. At some point a line must be drawn in the sand because once that access is taken away it is never coming back.

I mean, I bought it and am going to use it in California. I'll just set it up to not use more than 750w.

 

[Fangs2k]

it would be awesome journalism to look at how the moto & drone industries navigated regulation. What worked & what didn't? How were their sales affected by access & regulation?

Drones are now heavily regulated here in the UK, Europe and large parts of the rest of the world.

Not DJIs fault, but the proliferation of them including faster, heavier, longer range drones (sound familiar) led the aviation regulators to do something to try and keep a lid on it.

Now, here in the UK and elsewhere you can’t fly anything with a camera on it without passing an online test, applying and paying for an Operator and/or Flyer ID. Heavier stuff is even more tightly regulated.

I’m sure many ignore the regs, and law breakers don’t care what the law says anyway, but it’s created a barrier to taking up the hobby that didn’t exist before.

Further than that, model aircraft enthusiasts who had been happily flying incident free for many decades individually or in clubs were suddenly hit with the same compliance requirements, only fair right? People have left the hobby in droves as a result, the requirement for tests/registration, strict rules around where you can fly and the prospect of even more regulations (such as Flyer location via gps) have made it more trouble than it’s worth for many.

More regulation won’t be good for the emtb scene in my humble opinion, accepting registration/licence/fees in exchange for an increase in allowable power and/or speed could lead to all bicycles with a motor being hit with similar restrictions/requirements, just like drone regs have hit model flyers in the parks etc.

Uncontrolled power increases will attract the regulators at some point, the model aircraft community tried to demonstrate that they were different to drones somehow, that a model glider wasn’t the same as a drone etc, and that people would be sensible about it and only criminals needed regulating. Again sounds familiar.

We’re at the top of a potentially very slippery slope here me thinks.

 

[flash]

Drones are now heavily regulated here in the UK, Europe and large parts of the rest of the world.

Not DJIs fault, but the proliferation of them including faster, heavier, longer range drones (sound familiar) led the aviation regulators to do something to try and keep a lid on it.

Now, here in the UK and elsewhere you can’t fly anything with a camera on it without passing an online test, applying and paying for an Operator and/or Flyer ID. Heavier stuff is even more tightly regulated.

I’m sure many ignore the regs, and law breakers don’t care what the law says anyway, but it’s created a barrier to taking up the hobby that didn’t exist before.

Further than that, model aircraft enthusiasts who had been happily flying incident free for many decades individually or in clubs were suddenly hit with the same compliance requirements, only fair right? People have left the hobby in droves as a result, the requirement for tests/registration, strict rules around where you can fly and the prospect of even more regulations (such as Flyer location via gps) have made it more trouble than it’s worth for many.

More regulation won’t be good for the emtb scene in my humble opinion, accepting registration/licence/fees in exchange for an increase in allowable power and/or speed could lead to all bicycles with a motor being hit with similar restrictions/requirements, just like drone regs have hit model flyers in the parks etc.

Uncontrolled power increases will attract the regulators at some point, the model aircraft community tried to demonstrate that they were different to drones somehow, that a model glider wasn’t the same as a drone etc, and that people would be sensible about it and only criminals needed regulating. Again sounds familiar.

We’re at the top of a potentially very slippery slope here me thinks.

Drones are regulated because a 1-5kg brick falling from the sky with spinning knives at each corner can kill someone besides the operator. I’m a commercially licensed drone operator and some of the stuff you see people doing is mind blowingly stupid. On a bike it’s mostly the meat holding the handlebars who’s at risk. Not a bystander. Model aircraft already had a bunch of rules. Well here in Oz they did and do. There’s safety around other aircraft and all that.

In Oz the rules came in hard and fast. Over time they’ve generally relaxed. It’s much easier now to be allowed to fly BVLOS (beyond visual line of sight) or at night or with goggles than it was a couple of years ago. We can fly closer to airports and than we could. But the basic 5 rules still apply because people are dickheads.

And it’s not like drone operators always abide by the regulations. I saw a guy in Iceland hang his drone bag on the sign that said no drones once, while he casually flew off over a crowd…..

Anyway the whole argument is moot now as a whole bunch of 1200W eMTB’s got released. See EMBN’s latest infomercial/video. Now we can wait to see if DJI decide that 100W is enough and start lobbying?

And a question. Say we get a max power limit that’s regulated. Say there’s a bike on trail that’s over that. How do they test for that? How does a local cop or ranger test the power output of a bike? Or the organisers of an eMTB race event? Do you expect them to carry a dyno? Speed cutoff is easy to test. Power output, not so much.

Gordon

 

[Fangs2k]

And a question. Say we get a max power limit that’s regulated. Say there’s a bike on trail that’s over that. How do they test for that? How does a local cop or ranger test the power output of a bike? Or the organisers of an eMTB race event? Do you expect them to carry a dyno? Speed cutoff is easy to test. Power output, not so much.

Well, the same as they police drones, or full size aviation like I work in, ie mostly they don’t test anything whilst everything is fine and dandy.

Regulation is designed to mitigate risk, but only works if people follow the regulations. You can’t legislate for idiots, whatever, but it feels increasingly like they try to.

That means that an 80g DJI Tello here in the UK is regulated in the exact same way as a 250g DJI 4.

Same way as I can imagine that a 500w emtb will get regulated the same way as a motorbike if it goes to extremes.

The ‘industry’ will take us there if we’re not careful, and we’re going to let them…