Thinking of buying an EP801 bike? Read this

[patdam]

I have bought my 3rd Shimano powered bike, this time with the EP801. I replaced the wheel on the previous bike which had the EP6 motor, to fit an 11 speed cassette, and it worked perfectly. Zero E295 errors.
The secret is using a proper Shimano Centrelock Hub on the new wheel. That way you can use the original magnet, and it is located in exactly the same spot.

I need to replace the wheel on the new bike with the EP801, because I'm going to change from a 10 speed HG mounted cassette to 12 speed Microspline Cassette. To insure I have no issues I have ordered a FM MT510B Shimano Hub, and will fit this to the new wheel.

View attachment 156737
Whilst it's tempting to buy other brand hubs and wheels, when changing wheels. With a Shimano EP801. Just fit a proper Shimano hub and the original magnet. I have never had an issue when you do this.

If you want to fit other branded hubs to your EMTB. Don't buy a Shimano EP801 or EP6 powered EMTB. You are risking locking your motor.

The recipe for Shimano Motors, Batteries and Transmission is pretty simple. Keep it all Shimano, picked from the Shimano Compatibility Chart, if you don't want issues.

Oh whilst I'm here. My other tip for Shimano Motors, is only ever very lightly wash around the motor and crank. Minimum of very light water. Then wipe down right away. Use water dispersant every now and then, then wipe clean.

Not a law applicable to everybody, i done that (shimano centerlock nut)and i had the E295, And regarding the hub, very fewer brands use shimano hub on "real" EMTB and i doubt that the system communicate with the hub, you think so ?. Other parameters play but what ? can you say your software revision (mine 4.4.1)?

 

[Astro66]

i doubt that the system communicate with the hub

It's not a communication thing. It's a magnet signal thing. What's causing the the error is the pulse, in the speed transducer, from the magnet is different. Most likely is it's a double pulse, created by inconsistent voltage levels as the magnet passes in front of the speed transducer.

Regardless. The induced voltage in the speed sensor obviously needs to be within a very tight tolerance. And only running a Shimano Centrelock hub, will ensure the spacing created when you mount the Shimano Magnet is identical to the original wheel. And will thus produce an identical signal in the speed sensor.

 

[Astro66]

So not listen to this bs you can run what ever hub you wan`t on Shimano EP801. You are probably only dude in earth to buy aftermarket Shimano hubs to emtb, others will move away from them after they fail because those are shit hubs or even before that.

So ........ you clearly know about the signal tolerances in the speed transducer that the EP6 and EP801 require. Please explain to me how you can reproduce it identically if you are not using a Shimano Hub, with the dedicated Shimano Magnet. Are you saying that all hub manufacturers produce identical spacing when you mount the Shimano magnet to them ?

Just to show how uninformed your statement is. I have 2 different branded boost hubs in my spares. On one, the gap from the end cap to where the brake rotor mounts, is 16.7 mm. Whilst the other is 16.4 mm. This would change the magnet position. Which would alter the signal produced in the speed transducer.

This has been discussed in detail in the pedelec forum. People have actually put oscilloscopes on the transducer signal showing how it changes if you use different magnets or have different spacing. But I'm sure you know better. So please explain it, rather than go on some, "Brand Rant".

 

[patdam]

It's not a communication thing. It's a magnet signal thing. What's causing the the error is the pulse, in the speed transducer, from the magnet is different. Most likely is it's a double pulse, created by inconsistent voltage levels as the magnet passes in front of the speed transducer.

Regardless. The induced voltage in the speed sensor obviously needs to be within a very tight tolerance. And only running a Shimano Centrelock hub, will ensure the spacing created when you mount the Shimano Magnet is identical to the original wheel. And will thus produce an identical signal in the speed sensor.

whithout more information, i can't condradict you .But if it's only caused by the magnet, why only 1 mistake per exit ? not at the same time (1 time after 15 Mn, the other at 3 H) ? why sistematically in one uphill (where i'm in 32/52) at low speed +- 7 km/h, under motor assist? May be it's only a too low speed for the shimano motor ?

 

[Astro66]

very fewer brands use shimano hub on "real" EMTB

Was your original hub a Shimano Hub ? If it was then use a Shimano hub. If it was some other brand. Then use the exact same hub brand and the original magnet.

Every Shimano motored EMTB I bought, has come with a Shimano Hub. That is why I have said to use Shimano. I won't be using Shimano Hubs on my Amflow.

 

[Astro66]

whithout more information, i can't condradict you .But if it's only caused by the magnet, why only 1 mistake per exit ? not at the same time (1 time after 15 Mn, the other at 3 H) ? why sistematically in one uphill (where i'm in 32/52) at low speed +- 7 km/h, under motor assist? May be it's only a too low speed for the shimano motor ?

If you are not getting a clean signal on the speed transducer, because you changed the magnet, or changed the spacing. Then it isn't going to consistently count 1 revolution of the wheel. Sometimes it could count 1 (Counted OK). Sometimes it could count 2 (Voltage just went high enough, the dipped slightly then up high enough again, to produce second trigger). Sometimes it could count zero (Voltage never got high enough to record a count ). So adding the counting errors up could take a varying time to make the error big enough for the E295 alarm.

Shimano EP6 and EP801 motors, see varying speed sensor signals as someone trying to tamper with the speed limit. That's why they have a tight tolerance. So you get a couple of warnings. Then they lock down the motor.

 

[Bndit]

It's not a communication thing. It's a magnet signal thing. What's causing the the error is the pulse, in the speed transducer, from the magnet is different. Most likely is it's a double pulse, created by inconsistent voltage levels as the magnet passes in front of the speed transducer.

Regardless. The induced voltage in the speed sensor obviously needs to be within a very tight tolerance. And only running a Shimano Centrelock hub, will ensure the spacing created when you mount the Shimano Magnet is identical to the original wheel. And will thus produce an identical signal in the speed sensor.

This is just . My bike came with DTSwiss 6 bolt hubs, magnet installed to bolts of Sram 6 bolt disc. I replaced discs with Galfer and there`s integrated galfer generic magnet on disc. I have second set of wheels, DT Swiss CL hubs with Specialized lockring magnet. So explain how my bike works normally?

 

[MOG]

Mine came with Hunt wheels and a Hayes disc from the factory. My error codes started when I swapped the wheel from my other EP8 bike which does in fact have a shimano hub and disk on it. Guessing the non-shimano bike is set up with a different air-gap to suit the factory specification. Therefore, saying you should run Shimano and all will be OK is possibly unhelpful.

 

[darwink1]

If you are not getting a clean signal on the speed transducer, because you changed the magnet, or changed the spacing. Then it isn't going to consistently count 1 revolution of the wheel. Sometimes it could count 1. Sometimes it could count 2 (Called a double trigger). Sometimes it could count zero. So adding the counting errors up could take a varying time to make the error big enough for the E295 alarm.

Shimano EP6 and EP801 motors, see varying speed sensor signals as someone trying to tamper with the speed limit. That's why they have a tight tolerance. So you get a couple of warnings. Then they lock down the motor.

I swap between i9 and dt hubs on my ep8 constantly without issue. Just ditch the shitty center lock cup and cone shimano hub and use a 6 bolt rotor with shimano magnet on literally any other hub.

On my fattie I switch between i9, dt and the stock bitex? hubs without any issues at all.

D

 

[Astro66]

This is just . My bike came with DTSwiss 6 bolt hubs, magnet installed to bolts of Sram 6 bolt disc. I replaced discs with Galfer and there`s integrated galfer generic magnet on disc. I have second set of wheels, DT Swiss CL hubs with Specialized lockring magnet. So explain how my bike works normally?

Your gaps happen to be the same.

The point is the spacing from the endcap to the rotor must be identical, and the magnet needs to be mounted exactly the same. If you do this. Yes it doesn't matter which hub you use. But if you are getting errors, and the original was Shimano Hub. Then refit a Shimano. The fitting will then definitely be identical.

What motor are you running, and which firmware Revision are you using ?

 

[Astro66]

I swap between i9 and dt hubs on my ep8

The EP8 does not have the same monitoring software. This problem is unique to the EP6 and EP801. These motors have the same firmware.

 

[Astro66]

Therefore, saying you should run Shimano and all will be OK is possibly unhelpful.

That's why I'm asking him which hub he originally had.

 

[Bndit]

Your gaps happen to be the same.

The point is the spacing from the endcap to the rotor must be identical, and the magnet needs to be mounted exactly the same. If you do this. Yes it doesn't matter which hub you use. But if you are getting errors, and the original was Shimano Hub. Then refit a Shimano. The fitting will then definitely be identical.

What motor are you running, and which firmware Revision are you using ?

The rotor is at the same place on all hubs, it`s a standard. Otherwise things wouldn`t work. It has nothing to do end gaps or anything. If you have 12x148 boost hub , the rotor is same place an all hubs.Otherwise you cannot use it. Of course there`s probably some allowed tolerance. There are different magnets, nothing to do with hub. I know that Specialized magnet from Gen2 Levo works with Shimano, I also have Shimano CL rotor with magnet and it works on my Bosch.
I have one year old EP801, don`t know firmware, latest with race tune.

 

[Astro66]

I have one year old EP801, don`t know firmware, latest with race tune.

Is this the bike you are swapping wheels and magnets on ? If it is. You have been lucky. Because this is the only motor that has the issue. The other motors do not have this problem.

If you are trying to say that the magnet mounting doesn't matter. Then why does this only happen when people change the wheel. The only thing at changes when you change the wheel, is the magnet mounting. Nothing else changes on the speed pickup. And the E295 Error is a speed sensing error.

 

[Bndit]

Is this the bike you are swapping wheels and magnets on ? If it is. You have been lucky. Because this is the only motor that has the issue. The other motors do not have this problem.

If you are trying to say that the magnet mounting doesn't matter. Then why does this only happen when people change the wheel. The only thing at changes when you change the wheel, is the magnet mounting. Nothing else changes.

No, you said it`s hub what matters. It`s not, it`s the magnet. And that has not anything to do with hub. Of course you have to have correct magnet for your ebike system. Maybe simple put it here:Products – Galfer Bike basically it`s about difference of those two magnets there, other one is closer to the axle and other little away from it. Nothing to do with hub, just where the magnet is located related to axle. I have the small 2g magnet directly attached to disc. Works on Shimano, Bosch, Specialized etc.

 

[Astro66]

If you have 12x148 boost hub , the rotor is same place an all hubs.Otherwise you cannot use it.

I just measured it on two different hubs. There was a 0.3mm difference between the brands. Thats why there is adjustment on the brake calliper. Not all hub brands are identical.

 

[Bndit]

I just measured it on two different hubs. There was a 0.3mm difference between the brands. Thats why there is adjustment on the brake calliper. Not all hub brands are identical.

Yeah, but that doesn`t brake your Shimano motor.

 

[Bndit]

I have this on my other wheel because wheel is from my old Levo:Specialized Turboahtimen nopeusanturin magneetti, Hopeinen | Bikeinn
And on my original wheel came with this magnet on Sram disc before I swapped to Galfers

So all different and everything works

 

[Astro66]

Yeah, but that doesn`t brake your Shimano motor.

So magnetic field strength is constant no matter the distance from the magnetic source ? I am getting a good Physics lesson tonight.

The strength of the magnetic field is a factor in the amount of induced voltage in the speed sensor. If that volage is too low. You can count double pulses or no pulses, or the correct pulses. That causes E295 errors in the EP6 and EP801 motors. The discussion has been had on the pedelec forum.

But thanks for your input. You were correct. I assumed his Shimano powered bike came with Shimano hubs, like all mine have.

That said. If you ask Shimano about E295 errors on EP6 and EP801 motors. They will tell you to fit all Shimano components to assure signal strength. That's Shimano Centre Lock Magnet, Shimano Speed sensor, Shimano centrelock hub, and Shimano rotor. (It's all listed on the Shimano Compatibility Chart) Actually you can even go the the spoke mounted magnet, and correct speed sensor. But you must follow the chart and fitting instructions.

If you are getting E295 errors. I suggest taking this path. Or they could take yours, and eventually stop getting the errors. Hopefully he picks the right combination, before generating the E299 error, and locking the motor.

 

[patdam]

Was your original hub a Shimano Hub ? If it was then use a Shimano hub. If it was some other brand. Then use the exact same hub brand and the original magnet.

Every Shimano motored EMTB I bought, has come with a Shimano Hub. That is why I have said to use Shimano. I won't be using Shimano Hubs on my Amflow.

We don't live in the same dimensions ? In mine mostly EMTB have DT swiss wheels, someone mavic. nothing in my world use shimano hubs

 

[MOG]

And all of this begs the question as to whther any reasonable person in a court of law would consider swapping a wheel from on e bike to another to be tantamount to tampering with the motor to acheive more speed (which is what this software is designed to stop). Either Shimano need to reduce the sensitivity or they need to use a different way of spotting tampering. I will not be buying another Simano motored bike sp l;ong as this issue is not addressed. Imagine you car was to suddenly stop and turn the engine off with no warning while on the motorway just becasue you had fitted some new wheel a few months earier. Crap.

 

[Astro66]

We don't live in the same dimensions ? In mine mostly EMTB have DT swiss wheels, someone mavic. nothing in my world use shimano hubs

On my Shimano powered bikes. I run DT Swiss rims, but fit them to Shimano Hubs. I agree the Shimano hubs are not as long lasting as some of the more expensive hubs. But I can source them for about 35 Euros, and as I build my own wheels. I just replace the entire hub, when they start showing wear.

On my Amflow. I also built my wheels. Once again DT Swiss Rims. But Koozer hubs, which are a little more expensive than Shimano. But with sealed bearings, they last much longer. I've used the Koozer hubs for about 10 years. They are great, and you can get replacement freehubs for 20 Euros.

 

[Astro66]

. I will not be buying another Simano motored bike sp l;ong as this issue is not addressed.

With our proximity to Asia. Shimano componentry is very prevalent in Australia. So I use a lot of Shimano product. It's very well priced. So using the EP801, I just know to stay in their ecosystem, and have far less issues.

There is nothing wrong with getting other products with the EP801. It just you get issues you wouldn't, if you just follow their Compatibility Charts.

 

[Weeksy]

I run a Hope Pro5 on my Orbea Rise with Shimano EP6RS motor. No issues at all.

 

[patdam]

I run a Hope Pro5 on my Orbea Rise with Shimano EP6RS motor. No issues at all.

Unnecessary and counterproductive to pollute an thread dedicated to an big problem of the EP801 motor, with informations who don't concern it.

Already that I find the title badly chosen and that I missed the (important) informations sgared inside before my purchase

 

[Weeksy]

Unnecessary and counterproductive to pollute an thread dedicated to an big problem of the EP801 motor, with informations who don't concern it.

Already that I find the title badly chosen and that I missed the (important) informations sgared inside before my purchase

What ? You don't think the EP601 and EP801 are of enough of a similarity to warrant discussion in the same thread ?

 

[patdam]

What ? You don't think the EP601 and EP801 are of enough of a similarity to warrant discussion in the same thread ?

At his time, i don't read that EP601 had error E295 (real subject of this thread)

 

[Astro66]

At his time, i don't read that EP601 had error E295 (real subject of this thread)

EP6 runs the same firmware as EP801 and has the same issue. It also develops the E295 error if the speed sensor and magnet are not positioned correctly, even though the speed seems to display correctly on the display.

 

[ForMartha]

So what's the verdict? one can't use custom wheelset? I have Rise 2023 with EP801 and DT350 hubs paired with Bosch magnet. Anything I need to change? (not going to use shimano hubs)

 

[patdam]

So what's the verdict? one can't use custom wheelset? I have Rise 2023 with EP801 and DT350 hubs paired with Bosch magnet. Anything I need to change? (not going to use shimano hubs)

I use my SCOR 4060 Z in mulet (DT swiss EX1700), with 32 plate, 11 speeds and 11/52 K7 since 1 months (+- 200km 10000 D+). Nothing problems after all my modications are parametered by SCOR (through an BMC dealer) in the EP801. I couldn't find out wich modification (s ?) generate precisely the E259 error ? The only certification provided by shimano is that several E295 finally blok the motor and the rejects of the warranty.