Just a rant on restrictions - Tired of non-involved regulators

[ep8-rs]

Hey all,

So , to me it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around the world at different modes of transportation and see that we are in a unique group , yet still , it's transportation. Now personally I find it aggravating that people not even involved in our type of transportation decided to restrict certain aspects of said transport , namely SPEED.
Look around at virtually every other form of transport and there are NO RESTRICTIONS when it comes to speed , barring the maximum output of the drive system. Now I'm sure there will be ample arguments as to why , but I simply find it ignorant in how we are among the most non-threatening form of transport out there , yet ours was chosen to be the one restricted. Automobiles , Motorcycles , Boats , Aircraft ... ALL open throttle 'til there's no more left , and THEY ALL ARE LIFE THREATENING. Ours?... pretty much only to the controller of the transport and how ludicrous they wish to ride.
Also , look at the lucrative business of all the devices made specifically to negate these restrictions ... I wonder if those that decided they must restrict are also the one's invested in these devices? Pushing it I know , but I mean , REALLY , WHY?
So , Hey , E-Bike manufacturers , open 'em up ... yah , sure , make sure the motor can handle it , but you all already put enough disclaimers and such in your sales that we sign our rights away anyway. Warranty you say? Like I just said , disclaimers and you know perfectly well with todays software surveillance and recording you place within everything these days , you'll know if we've gone overboard and can deny the claim. Leave it in the hands of the OWNER. I paid enough that I should be able to decide for myself how fast is safe for me , not some clown regulator setting behind a desk.

Okay , rant over.
Thanks for having the forum to let me vent.

 

[Hairybiker]

If you’ve got enough private land to amuse yourself on, fill your boots and buy a Surron or derestrict your ebike. No place on public access bridleways and shared usage trails for unrestricted electric motorcycles.

 

[Joecrow]

I find it aggravating that people not even involved in our type of transportation decided to restrict certain aspects of said transport , namely SPEED.

I strongly suspect you would find it far more aggravating if you had to register, insure and have number plates on your e-bike not to mention paying for a regular safety check and maybe even tax! These are the restrictions applied to nearly all other forms of motorised vehicles, you should be happy that e-bikes with speed restrictions are still classed as unregisted, uninsured, untested bicycles!

 

[ep8-rs]

I strongly suspect you would find it far more aggravating if you had to register, insure and have number plates on your e-bike not to mention paying for a regular safety check and maybe even tax! These are the restrictions applied to nearly all other forms of motorised vehicles, you should be happy that e-bikes with speed restrictions are still classed as unregisted, uninsured, untested bicycles!

For most this is true , but guess what? Where I live , I DO HAVE TO REGISTER. sooooo

 

[ep8-rs]

If you’ve got enough private land to amuse yourself on, fill your boots and buy a Surron or derestrict your ebike. No place on public access bridleways and shared usage trails for unrestricted electric motorcycles.

I bought an E-MTB for both getting there , aka transport , and for fun. I feel it's pretty obvious that a Surron is NOT an E-MTB, and if I had that kind of money , this rant post would not have ever crossed my mind. So keep on justifying it all to yourself...

 

[Joecrow]

For most this is true , but guess what? Where I live , I DO HAVE TO REGISTER. sooooo

Interesting and sorry I didn't know E-Bike registration was required in the USA are you also restricted to 25kmh (15mph) as we are in Europe?
Regarding speed bear in mind there is nothing to stop an E-Bike going faster, the restriction is applied to the motor assist, I regularly get up to 40kmh coming down a hill in my area despite the 25 kmh motor assist restriction and an all vehicle 30 kmh speed limit. I even trigger the speed trap camera on occaisions. No number plate, no fine.

 

[WatermanJim]

Thank you EP8. I'm tired of bike nazis telling us what and how we should ride and hyjacking threads with their bossy BS. Never had one problem on the trail. Got to slow down and watch out for people no matter if you are on a regular bike or ebike. Thats just common sense and people who predict that i will not use common sense are insulting. In the US federal laws states that ebike with no throttle at 250W has the same rights as a regular bike. Thats why the US Levo in class 3 is still restricted to max 250W output. still enough power. I understand people fear ebikes for a few logical reasons but the reality is these fears never materialize. Call it eAnxiety. In the real world this is fading, online people love to talk smack. So its two different worlds. Time to ignore the fear mongering, negative attention seeking Karens. Also im sure the derestricting companies in UK and EU are working overtime to unlock the gen 4 because being restricted to 16 mph is no fun. Imo US/EU/UK needs to change the rules to 40kmh/25mph for class 1 and everyone should be happy.

 

[WatermanJim]

For most this is true , but guess what? Where I live , I DO HAVE TO REGISTER. sooooo

Registering the new levo was quite the processs. the bike does not work at all out of the box. Lbs had to plug the bike in and register it. Had to get new iphone to run the new app. sign up with specialized online. Bike had to connect to the app and confirm my identity before it would turn on. And yes the gps is tracking the bike at all times and no way to turn that off.

 

[Bndit]

Hey all,

So , to me it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around the world at different modes of transportation and see that we are in a unique group , yet still , it's transportation. Now personally I find it aggravating that people not even involved in our type of transportation decided to restrict certain aspects of said transport , namely SPEED.
Look around at virtually every other form of transport and there are NO RESTRICTIONS when it comes to speed , barring the maximum output of the drive system. Now I'm sure there will be ample arguments as to why , but I simply find it ignorant in how we are among the most non-threatening form of transport out there , yet ours was chosen to be the one restricted. Automobiles , Motorcycles , Boats , Aircraft ... ALL open throttle 'til there's no more left , and THEY ALL ARE LIFE THREATENING. Ours?... pretty much only to the controller of the transport and how ludicrous they wish to ride.
Also , look at the lucrative business of all the devices made specifically to negate these restrictions ... I wonder if those that decided they must restrict are also the one's invested in these devices? Pushing it I know , but I mean , REALLY , WHY?
So , Hey , E-Bike manufacturers , open 'em up ... yah , sure , make sure the motor can handle it , but you all already put enough disclaimers and such in your sales that we sign our rights away anyway. Warranty you say? Like I just said , disclaimers and you know perfectly well with todays software surveillance and recording you place within everything these days , you'll know if we've gone overboard and can deny the claim. Leave it in the hands of the OWNER. I paid enough that I should be able to decide for myself how fast is safe for me , not some clown regulator setting behind a desk.

Okay , rant over.
Thanks for having the forum to let me vent.

Buy a acustic bike, no restriction on speed! Or don`t buy a ebike if you dislike it. Ride o motorcycle if you need more power and speed.

 

[whitymon]

There is more to think about speed at first sight.

All transportation vehicle where speed is not enforced are required to have a driving license and insurance for you and others and obviously a plate allowing to receive tickets.

In what world anyone would like to do such thing for a mtb? What about my kids? This needs more thinking and reasoning that just the frustration of being speed limited which in reality does not exist if you have leg power or doing DH.

Looking at my strava I just did a 65km/h on my last big DH, this was already pretty good no?

 

[Zimmerframe]

All valid points.

I like to go fast. I try to go fast going up too as it's more interesting.

De-restricted bike to test battery drain/motor overheating/power drop outs. Zero other humans on trail. Yes, going down we can go FAST, motor or no motor.

The problem is, whilst we consider ourselves of sound mind, respectful to others and our surroundings - not every human conforms to that.

You only have to look back on some of the video's on here proudly presented by people who are oblivious to their impact on anyone and everyone around them. Riding as fast as possible through pedestrian areas as people literally dive out of the way. Scaring the hell out of people as they fly past families out walking on tow paths.

So unfortunately, regulators have to take into account those with restricted blood flow to their brains as well as everyone else.

The flip side is that most of the people who don't care about anyone else have generally bought 2 or 3kw bikes without any restrictions on anyway - so the regulations don't affect a large proportion of the people they should help keep in check.

Arguably as we have the nominal 250w limit, the speed limit is semi pointless as the rider has to start putting in considerably more effort the faster you go and the motor is eventually just making up for the extra weight of the EMTB.

 

[Old Codger]

In Wales U.K. most roads are restricted to 20mph for all vehicles except bikes and Ebikes as there are no speed restrictions on bikes. So, cyclists in Wales should feel very lucky.
Speed restrictions are not dictated by the motor manufacturers but by the governments. We’re lucky that all other vehicles don’t argue that if cycles have no speed limits why should they.

 

[Vaau839]

Buy a acustic bike, no restriction on speed! Or don`t buy a ebike if you dislike it. Ride o motorcycle if you need more power and speed.

This has nothing to do with power. A 25km/h speed limit is just nonsense unless you're riding only off-road, but on a commuter, it just kills ebikes for a lot of people.

There is more to think about speed at first sight.

All transportation vehicle where speed is not enforced are required to have a driving license and insurance for you and others and obviously a plate allowing to receive tickets.

In what world anyone would like to do such thing for a mtb? What about my kids? This needs more thinking and reasoning that just the frustration of being speed limited which in reality does not exist if you have leg power or doing DH.

Looking at my strava I just did a 65km/h on my last big DH, this was already pretty good no?

You don't get up to speed that fast, especially around town, and if you do it's A LOT safer for the rider to go 30-35 km/h

 

[whitymon]

You are completely out of base thinking it is safe in a city to ride a mtb at 35km/h.

 

[Fangs2k]

A 25km/h speed limit is just nonsense unless you're riding only off-road, but on a commuter, it just kills ebikes for a lot of people.

Here in the UK, you can get faster/more powerful commuter e-bikes, you just need to have a licence, registration/number plate and insurance to be legal using them on the road, just like a bike powered by anything else.

The vast majority of EMTBs available are EAPCs (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles), they don’t require any licence, registration, plates or insurance. It’s a pretty hassle free way of getting some transport for getting about if that’s your requirement, and that’s a pretty rare thing these days, and long may it continue. They’re also great fun for off road riding, which is presumably why most of us are here on this forum in the first place!

I don’t think it makes you a ‘Karen’ or a ‘bike Nazi’ to disagree with the idea that assist limits should be moved up just because some dude in a bike park finds the assist limit annoying or ‘dangerous’.

That said, as I understand it, the rules around EAPCs are under review here in the UK, but who knows what we’ll end up with. In a world where you seem to need a licence or insurance for most things, being able to own and ride a pedal assist bicycle is a small pleasure, and I don’t want that to change.

I can’t even fly a model glider now without a test and registration with the CAA, something arguably brought about by people flying irresponsibly along with all the perceived evils such things can do. I don’t want EMTBs to go the same way.

If you’re in the US, and don’t like the laws around registration/assist limits etc, may I respectfully suggest you take that up with your own legislators rather than attacking people who are happy with how things are now?

 

[Doomanic]

25kmh isn't a speed limit, it's an assist limit. Want to go faster? Pedal harder. Last weekend I was merrily pootling along at 40kmh on a fairly flat flow trail on my restricted Rail. Cool story, right?

 

[Zed. (Justin is short)]

In Wales U.K. most roads are restricted to 20mph

and its a pain in the arse

Rich.

 

[Doomanic]

Where I live , I DO HAVE TO REGISTER.

Who do you have to register with?

 

[Mario Antony]

Many have different prespectives into the speed limit and the post.

For me, I understood it has a rant towards those that limited ebikes to 25/32km/h, and that's the only transport that you buy with such limit.

Motorcycles were in times limited to 100hp - like in France & Germany, or Japan, with speed limits up to 180km/h

It's funny to see all karens behind some comments, but in all thruth, most see the speed limit signs as a "reference" and not a limit!
In UE, the road speed limit is 90km/h, and by all means you can travel on such roads between walking up to 90km/h!
If you go at 85km/h, 5km/h bellow speed limit, you'll get passed by everyone. Even if you go at 90km/h...
The sign is a reference and not a limit.

On an Emtb, people complain about passing other bikers or pedestrians, or any other kind, but a simple rule of good sense would be necessary to avoid any issues.

Some are so worry about the speed ebikers pass uphill, but I ask:
What about DH? Is it ok to have a speed limit to 25km/h? Will they reduce speed or even stop for pedestrians?
If it's so dangerous to have assistance on an ebike over 25km/h, then it should be forbidden and lightining should strike any rider descending over 25km/h! Those criminals.... assisted by gravity and exceeding the holly grail of speed limit safety!

In resume: I completly agree with this post

 

[Fangs2k]

Again, the concern isn’t ’speed limits’, there are none on electrically assisted pedal cycles (here in the UK anyway) it’s the ‘assist limit’ that is being complained about.

The analogy with vehicle road speed limits doesn’t seem that relevant other than few people adhere to them rigidly.

 

[Polar]

Buy a acustic bike, no restriction on speed! Or don`t buy a ebike if you dislike it. Ride o motorcycle if you need more power and speed.

If you don't like the EU rules move to US
If you dont ride the bike the way I do you dont understand anything
If you don't ride in the same infrastructure as me find a place I like
If you don't are as fit as me buy a wheelchair
If you see someone who don't use common sense, then you're most likely the same
If you try to complain move to another forum

What's the problem when there is no problem?

 

[Mario Antony]

Again, the concern isn’t ’speed limits’, there are none on electrically assisted pedal cycles (here in the UK anyway) it’s the ‘assist limit’ that is being complained about.

The analogy with vehicle road speed limits doesn’t seem that relevant other than few people adhere to them rigidly.

There wouldn't be such concerns about assistance and speed limit to which motor assists, if there wasn't so much drag from the motor.
But there is... and the difference is enormous. It's easier to sustain over 40km/h on a roadbike on a flat road/no wind, than pedaling beyond 25km/h on an ebike


But, the real question is:
why do others feel so offended by ebikers wanting to be assisted beyond 25km/h?

Does gravity stop assist you descending when reaching a certain speed?
Or better still, do people go full speed ahead while descending, just because they are gravity assisted without speed limit to the assistance?
Is it safer for a Bike, descending at 50 or 60km/h, assisted by gravity and using trails that are used by others, than an ebike being assisted over 25km/h on the same trails?

25km/h has nonsense, or any foundation to sustain such reasoning

 

[whitymon]

In resume: I completly agree with this post

Totally unrelated, you miss a bit the point.

The speed limit exits as a mtb can be used on non private restricted trail.

Same as dirt bike, you do not need a permit, even for a roadster bike to drive them on a private circuit.

If you take them out there on the street or where people can walk etc, this is outlaw.

The only possibility, legal, would be a mtb forbidden to be used outside restricted mtb pathways/trail. Like a bike park …

It is nonsense to confuse DH on specific trail and street where you would assume it would be okay to run that fast without insurance and permit.

This is where nonsense lies.

 

[Mario Antony]

Totally unrelated, you miss a bit the point.

The speed limit exits as a mtb can be used on non private restricted trail.

Same as dirt bike, you do not need a permit, even for a roadster bike to drive them on a private circuit.

If you take them out there on the street or where people can walk etc, this is outlaw.

The only possibility, legal, would be a mtb forbidden to be used outside restricted mtb pathways/trail. Like a bike park …

It is nonsense to confuse DH on specific trail and street where you would assume it would be okay to run that fast without insurance and permit.

This is where nonsense lies.

There are speed limits to which people should respect on the road.
Going past XX km/h on a XXxXXX road is illegal on a motorvehicle/pedal vehicle/push vehicle/etc...

On the trails, there aren't any speed limit, as there aren't one way direction trails - unless you're on a bike park or trail center or something similar.

On a mountain, with trails/pathways that doesn't have signs forbiding some use:
There are no speed limits
There aren't one way trails
The only rule is you should drive/ride/walk on your right for incoming traffic, and adequate the speed for terrain and other trail users

 

[Fangs2k]

There wouldn't be such concerns about assistance and speed limit to which motor assists, if there wasn't so much drag from the motor.
But there is... and the difference is enormous. It's easier to sustain over 40km/h on a roadbike on a flat road/no wind, than pedaling beyond 25km/h on an ebike

I don’t know what e-bike you ride, but it’s perfectly possible to pedal my EMTBs faster than 25km/h, the Levo SL more so than my Shimano E8000 motored one, but it’s a mountain pedal cycle anyway, not a road bike.

But, the real question is:
why do others feel so offended by ebikers wanting to be assisted beyond 25km/h?

I think an equally ‘real question’ is why don’t people just buy and ride the options that already exist if they want assistance beyond 25km/h (and comply with the legalities if you’re on roads or public spaces) rather than expect all EAPCs to have a higher limit risking the existence of a hassle free option of riding an electrically assisted bicycle with zero requirement for registration etc?

Electrically assisted bicycles are what they are, just about the whole world regulates them so that they stay under the threshold of ‘motorised transport’ requiring registration/licences/number plates/lighting/helmets and restrictions on where they can be ridden. It‘s a fine line, and of course most people are perfectly capable of being sensible even if they assisted to a higher limit and I wouldn’t complain if the assist limit was higher, but we should be careful what we wish for…

 

[Mario Antony]

I don’t know what e-bike you ride, but it’s perfectly possible to pedal my EMTBs faster than 25km/h, the Levo SL more so than my Shimano E8000 motored one, but it’s a mountain pedal cycle anyway, not a road bike.



I think an equally ‘real question’ is why don’t people just buy and ride the options that already exist if they want assistance beyond 25km/h (and comply with the legalities if you’re on roads or public spaces) rather than expect all EAPCs to have a higher limit risking the existence of a hassle free option of riding an electrically assisted bicycle with zero requirement for registration etc?

Electrically assisted bicycles are what they are, just about the whole world regulates them so that they stay under the threshold of ‘motorised transport’ requiring registration/licences/number plates/lighting/helmets and restrictions on where they can be ridden. It‘s a fine line, and of course most people are perfectly capable of being sensible even if they assisted to a higher limit and I wouldn’t complain if the assist limit was higher, but we should be careful what we wish for…

Bosch CX4 Smart

Do this experiment to check internal drag of the motor.
Place the ebike backflipped on the floor, and try to move the rear wheel clockwise (as if you were pushing the bike backwards).
Then, remove the chain from the chainring and repeat.
Check the difference.


It's valid what you say, but why 25km/h? Why not 26...28...33....40?
Why is the only vehicle that has restrictions, and who impose it, mist likely, doesn't even ride a bike...

Why can't I buy an ebike, and sign a document stating that I'm fully aware of the illegal vehicle I'm buying, but it's not speed limited assisted?

PS: some can ride MX motorbikes on trails without any problem at all... is it legal? Well...you should have a plate, 2 mirrors, lights turn signals, DOT tires, etc to have a "legal" dirt bike!
Do you see anyone with mirros on Enduro Motorcycles? Or DOT tires?? Ahahahahahha

 

[cream]

There wouldn't be such concerns about assistance and speed limit to which motor assists, if there wasn't so much drag from the motor.
But there is... and the difference is enormous. It's easier to sustain over 40km/h on a roadbike on a flat road/no wind, than pedaling beyond 25km/h on an ebike

If you comparing a road bike with an full suspension trail/enduro ebike the difference might be enormous, but not because of motor drag. Brose motor has almost no additional drag as only the axle shaft and torque sensor/chainring assembly is moving, no other internal gears (like on Ep8, for example). There are other things that contribute to energy losses…geometry, suspension, total mass, rotational mass, tyre rolling resistance.

Try comparing a road bike with a DH bike, both analog. See how it will go.

Or compare a levo, no battery, with a stumpjumper, same equipment.

 

[Mario Antony]

If you comparing a road bike with an full suspension trail/enduro ebike the difference might be enormous, but not because of motor drag. Brose motor has almost no additional drag as only the axle shaft and torque sensor/chainring assembly is moving, no other internal gears (like on Ep8, for example). There are other things that contribute to energy losses…geometry, suspension, total mass, rotational mass, tyre rolling resistance.

Try comparing a road bike with a DH bike, both analog. See how it will go.

Or compare a levo, no battery, with a stumpjumper, same equipment.

The effort I do to maintain over 40km/h (41/42/43) on a roadbike (al frame, Ultrega, 25C, around 8kg) is similar to riding same road, on my carbon trail bike (29er 2.4, X01, full suspension 150/140 air shock no lockout) at over 38km/h (just bellow 40). If there are roadbikers ahead, than it's easy to go on the group!

On the ebike (mullet, CX4smart, air F&R, 2.5x29 & 2.4x27.5) around 27/28, but let's round that to 30. It's impossible to go on a Roadbike group, without burning up the legs

The effort is just ridiculous, and you're always looking for flat tire/brake drag/etc...

PS: like I don't ride always at 25km/h, having no speed limit on assistance, I wouldn't ride always on max speed

But not having speed limit on assistance, we could have a certain period (like 30sec) at which the motor would assist endlessly and not dependable on speed.

 

[cream]

Do this experiment to check internal drag of the motor.
Place the ebike backflipped on the floor, and try to move the rear wheel clockwise (as if you were pushing the bike backwards).
Then, remove the chain from the chainring and repeat.
Check the difference.

In this way it’s normal to have drag as you will engage the internal one way clutch(es) up to electrical rotor. Most of us ride the bike forward not backward so this is not a problem You can remove the chain from the chainring and start rotating the crank, that is the drag that matters.

 

[Mario Antony]

In this way it’s normal to have drag as you will engage the internal one way clutch(es) up to electrical rotor. Most of us ride the bike forward not backward so this is not a problem You can remove the chain from the chainring and start rotating the crank, that is the drag that matters.

If you don't feel the drag while pedalling, it's worthless to continue arguing on "FEELINGS"...