"2nd dead bosch gen 4 motor not happy

[Paulquattro]

Peter
I'm awaiting your mod with anticipation
As soon as you have posted availability i will be in contact and you can have my motor for an overhaul as i feel its whining a bit more than normal

 

[Bummers]

What's the issue with not being able to do that repair on the gen 4 motor with smart system?

 

[Bearing Man]

What's the issue with not being able to do that repair on the gen 4 motor with smart system?

The "smart" system is integrated with the handlebar remote and controller, alarm (if fitted), ABS module and carries the bikes frame number, so the PCB of the motor is also linked to Bosch through their new diagnostics portal. This means you can't just swap a motor or PCB, unless the "new motor" is programmed and assigned by Bosch to that bike.
Sadly, this is the end for us repairing any electrical PCB faults, and a big blow from Bosch against sustainability!!!

 

[AF1]

"Sadly, this is the end for us repairing any electrical PCB faults, and a big blow from Bosch against sustainability!!!" Well said Peter! Lets hope they read this.

 

[RustyMTB]

The "smart" system is integrated with the handlebar remote and controller, alarm (if fitted), ABS module and carries the bikes frame number, so the PCB of the motor is also linked to Bosch through their new diagnostics portal. This means you can't just swap a motor or PCB, unless the "new motor" is programmed and assigned by Bosch to that bike.
Sadly, this is the end for us repairing any electrical PCB faults, and a big blow from Bosch against sustainability!!!

You clearly have a professional relationship with Bosch at some level, so is it fair to assume they could grant you access to the necessary software but won't?

 

[Gareth]

You clearly have a professional relationship with Bosch at some level, so is it fair to assume they could grant you access to the necessary software but won't?

Umm, this is the whole point of this thread now is it not? Bosch consider the Gen 4 unit to be a sealed unit. Bosch do not support service or repair.

And there is no point whatsoever in having access to the software if the manufacture won’t supply spares – ie the PCB. In fact, any spares whatsoever.

Which is why my perfectly repairable 2.5 year old 3450 mile motor ended up as a basket case – water ingress killed the PCB. Local Bike Shop wanted 750 quid for a replacement.

And these motors can leak like a sieve. In fact the refurb motor I bought failed after only 180 miles.

Yet it is clear that this motor is wholly serviceable and repairable (in the right skilled hands)

It is extremely frustrating.

Meanwhile as I sit here with wind howling and the rain pelting against my window here in Bonnie Scotland , I look forward to hearing more about possible Ebike Motor Centre upgrades for the Bosch Gen 4.

 

[RustyMTB]

I don't speak for Pete but I can be reasonably sure you have the wrong end of the stick, Gareth. A cursory glance at Pete's website would show you that.

 

[Gareth]

This is the biggest part of the problem Rusty, Bosch do not provide any support whatsoever for the Gen4 motor. As far as they are concerned it is a sealed for life unit.

 

[RustyMTB]

Except they do. They provide a warranty for two years in common with other manufacturers. You're entitled to think that's insufficient but that's your business on which I have no opinion. Facts are Pete's business is stuffed full of spare parts & we know he deals directly with Bosch which you would know had you folowed the thread.

Therefore your beef is around whether they will deal direct with consumers or oblige you to use a third party and that hardly marks them out as exceptional.

 

[Gareth]

Bosch won’t supply a spare PCB to anybody. They won’t supply a PCB to you, me or anybody else – nobody. They won’t supply it to a bike shop or any independent repair business.

If you get water into the motor and it damages the PCB then your emotor is finished.

Hence my perfectly potentially repairable ebike motor was a basket case.

Yes I think that is crap.

You may get lucky be able to get a PCB from another failed motor, just as my motor probably provided parts for other failed and failing motors that didn’t have PCB issues.

 

[RustyMTB]

Oh well, I guess you just have to cough up then. Pity you didn't follow my tips to keep water out. I made a helpful video and everything.

 

[Gareth]

They provide a warranty for two years in common with other manufacturers.

Imagine buying a petrol-powered car and then just out of warranty the water pump fails. Not a big problem you think, until you find out that the manufacture considers the engine to be a sealed unit, they’ll supply you with a new engine but not a water pump. That just wouldn't happen. However...............

That’s kinda where we are with Bosch and the Gen4 ebike motor.

 

[RustyMTB]

All very interesting but some distance from 'Bosch won't provide ANY support' to yes but not PCB's to look at this £5k car engine. I'm sorry your motors failed twice but imo two in a row points at you as much as the manufacturer. There are things you can do to protect these, the information is widely available yet it sounds like you did none of them and are now busy complaining vocally on the internet.

 

[Gareth]

Pity you didn't follow my tips to keep water out. I made a helpful video and everything.

Not expecting my low milage motor to have any issues, well I started researching the issue once I had a problem. That’s often the way of things. Most bike shops seem to be telling their new customers that they don’t have many or any issues with ebike motors (whilst their skip out the back may suggest otherwise)

So a few points about that. We know that the bearing seals are a potential route for water to get into the motor. We also know that that is not the only route.

However, if the bearing seals, for example, are a common issue with water ingress, then it begs the question why Bosch have not made this a service item.

Bike shops are not servicing those seals, though no doubt through experience some may be beginning to do so.

So Bosch will not only won’t supply spares (other than basic things like new bearing seals), but they won’t even acknowledge common issues.

As I said in my post #135 these are not particularly difficult issues to solve.

But right now, as consumers, Bosch are leaving us high and dry.

 

[Tony4wd]

At this moment it seems like the EP801 is the better motor - improved sealing over the EP8 and reportedly at least as powerful as the Bosch CX. Bosch will almost certainly have better seals on their next motor.

 

[irie]

The "smart" system is integrated with the handlebar remote and controller, alarm (if fitted), ABS module and carries the bikes frame number, so the PCB of the motor is also linked to Bosch through their new diagnostics portal. This means you can't just swap a motor or PCB, unless the "new motor" is programmed and assigned by Bosch to that bike.
Sadly, this is the end for us repairing any electrical PCB faults, and a big blow from Bosch against sustainability!!!

Wow, vindicates yet again our decision not to 'upgrade' our bikes which have non-Smart Bosch CX Gen4 motors (2022 alloy Trek Rails)!

 

[Gareth]

Wow, vindicates yet again our decision not to 'upgrade' our bikes which have non-Smart Bosch CX Gen4 motors (2022 alloy Trek Rails)!

Yeah that is a bit off putting. I’m been toying with the possibility of purchasing a new emtb (yes I’m still addicted).

But if I am reading that correctly, it means that anybody who suffers a Bosch PCB failure with the Gen4 ‘smart’ motor, out of warranty, has no other option but to purchase a brand-new Bosch motor, if they want to get rolling again.

The days of getting hold of a refurbished motor should you be unfortunate enough to suffer PCB failure, as I was, appear to be coming to an end.

And that presumably is the situation moving forwards unless Bosch decide to change their policy and support repairs outside of warranty.

Ah well, the positive view would be that some would say that things need to get worse before they can get better. I always like to look on the bright side of things

 

[Paulquattro]

Imagine buying a petrol-powered car and then just out of warranty the water pump fails. Not a big problem you think, until you find out that the manufacture considers the engine to be a sealed unit, they’ll supply you with a new engine but not a water pump. That just wouldn't happen. However...............

That’s kinda where we are with Bosch and the Gen4 ebike motor.

As you brought up cars there no different
Try and get a new PCB for one of the many ECU,s in your car , you will find people who can repair them but its a new ECU complete or scrap the car otherwise .

You cant compare a car engine mechanically to a PCB in a bosch motor , Bearings can be replaced as can seals in the bosch motor as well as the water pump on the engine .

By the way Gareth this isn't a personal dig at you just trying to put things into perspective

And for some more perspective on electronics how many people have £1200 phones in there pockets that are battery exhausted at 2-3 yrs old where's the right to repair there when it wasn't that long ago you could swap out a battery as a user , isn't progress great

 

[Gareth]

As you brought up cars there no different

Try and get a new PCB for one of the many ECU,s in your car , you will find people who can repair them but its a new ECU complete otherwise or scrap the car.

Exactly, if your Engine Control Unit (ECU) in your car fails, you can get a new one. Either under warranty, or you pay for a new one out of warranty. But such a part will be available.

If your PCB in your Bosch ebike motor fails (basically the ECU), BOSCH will not sell you a new one.

You cant compare a car engine mechanically to a PCB in a bosch motor , Bearings can be replaced as can seals in the bosch motor as well as the water pump on the engine

No I’m comparing a car engine to an ebike motor. Both are motors. And no you wouldn’t generally scrap a car engine for the sake of an ECU, so why should we have to scrap our ebike engines for the sake of a PCB.

As far as bearings go. Most bearings are off the shelf, and even those that are unique to a product, presumably third-party manufacture is not an issue if demand is there. Though really you’d have to ask bearing man about that aspect.

The other point is, it almost appears as if BOSCH is actively discouraging and making it more difficult to repair their motors by introducing technology such as their ‘smart’ motor system.

From what Bearing Man eBike Motor Repairs & Servicing - Homepage says I take it that if you kill the PCB on the ‘smart’ system, then he’ll not be able to help you out with a refurbished motor unlike previously with the non 'smart' Gen4.

So right now, things are not getting better for us Bosch consumers, as Bosch seem to be making a good effort to make things even worse.

 

[irie]

The other point is, it almost appears as if BOSCH is actively discouraging and making it more difficult to repair their motors by introducing technology such as their ‘smart’ motor system.

Bosch are trying to control their market to maximise profitability in the same way that for example Sony did with Betamax and Toshiba did with HD-DVD.

 

[Planemo]

And for some more perspective on electronics how many people have £1200 phones in there pockets that are battery exhausted at 2-3 yrs old where's the right to repair there when it wasn't that long ago you could swap out a battery as a user , isn't progress great

Not a dig either but the difference is that theres many, many independent repair shops who can replace the battery in 99% of phones out there.

I do get your point though, if it was a PCB inside the phone then it might be trickier as I doubt you could buy one but I guess the difference is that you could find another dead phone to steal it from and it would likely work (unlike Bosch Smart systems).

Either way, I'm with Gareth on this. Making an expensive motor thats totally unserviceable even to skilled independents is taking the piss IMO. In fact I know more than a few riders who have decided not to buy into the locked Bosch ecosystem because of this and go Bafang instead.

As much as I absolutely love my 2020 Gen4 CX theres no way I will buy another Bosch bike (certainly not a 'Smart' one) simply due to this service/repair fiasco.

 

[Gareth]

Bosch are trying to control their market to maximise profitability in the same way that for example Sony did with Betamax and Toshiba did with HD-DVD.

I really don’t know what their motivation is. But that doesn't make sense. And those old Betamax and VHS machines were fully supported by their manufactures, and frankly, just like our Bosch emotors, boy did they need it.

What I do know is that Brose seem to be happy to supply suitably skilled independent repairers with the parts that they need.

I believe Bearing Man at the eBike Motor Repairs & Servicing - Homepage has stated that he has a 100% or near 100% success rate with repairs on the Brose. Plus sucess with their own upgraded seals to keep the water out. Happy days for Brose owners.

Which approach do you find more attractive as a customer irie? I like the Brose approach. I wish my motor was a Brose.

 

[irie]

I really don’t know what their motivation is.

As said previously, Bosch are doing this so that they can control their market and maximise profitably. Now you may disagree that this strategy will succeed but Bosch clearly believe it will otherwise they would not do so.

But that doesn't make sense. And those old Betamax and VHS machines were fully supported by their manufactures, and frankly, just like our Bosch emotors, boy did they need it.

That is exactly the point, think about it.

What I do know is that Brose seem to be happy to supply suitably skilled independent repairers with the parts that they need.

I believe Bearing Man at the eBike Motor Repairs & Servicing - Homepage has stated that he has a 100% or near 100% success rate with repairs on the Brose. Plus sucess with their own upgraded seals to keep the water out. Happy days for Brose owners.

Which approach do you find more attractive as a customer irie? I like the Brose approach. I wish my motor was a Brose.

If I had to choose between what we now have which are relatively reliable non Smart Bosch motors and Brose motors requiring relatively frequent warranty claims then I would choose the former. Which I have done so of course.

 

[Gareth]

That is exactly the point, think about it.

The old video recorder manufactures fully supported their products. Like our Bosch motors, they weren’t terribly reliable (certainly not in the 1980’s, though later they became almost bomb proof) but they were easy to get repaired.

So no I don’t see your point.

If I had to choose between what we now have which are relatively reliable non Smart Bosch motors

I think the Bosch motor is crap in terms of reliability. A bit of a sick joke really.

The ‘smart’ generation is bad news irrespective of whether or not you have a ‘smart’ generation Gen4. For ‘smart’ owners it means if they fry the PCB – that’s it - game over no repair is possible. For non ‘smart’ owners it now means the number of PCBs out there is finite, and the chances of getting a fix should you fry the PCB are slowly diminishing as replacement PCBs are cannibalised from other faulty motors. The clock is ticking.

And of course, all these issues are easily solved, all Bosch has to do is make spares and support (software etc) available.

As it is they are taking us all for a ride.

 

[irie]

...
As it is they are taking us all for a ride.

All motor manufacturers are taking their customers for a ride, just in a variety of different ways.

Edit: Proprietary systems either become ubiquitous or are superceded and finally disappear into obscurity. Your call about the current crop of motors.

 

[Kingerz]

Water destroys ebikes, everyone knows it. Hoses are out, clean with a cloth and automotive products. Don't ride in rain or in wet slop. They are weakly sealed electric motors. There's whole Reddits about Teslas breaking in rain.

 

[Tony4wd]

Water destroys ebikes, everyone knows it. Hoses are out, clean with a cloth and automotive products. Don't ride in rain or in wet slop. They are weakly sealed electric motors. There's whole Reddits about Teslas breaking in rain.

Two of the CX crankshaft seals can be kept greased and fairly waterproof but there's a third seal (between the inner and out shafts) which is poorly designed and letting water in too easily.

 

[Paulquattro]

Not a dig either but the difference is that theres many, many independent repair shops who can replace the battery in 99% of phones out there.

Hi
I was more relating to OEM when comparing the repair
I have had batteries replaced in phones in the past but they have never been able to get OEM batteries only 3rd party rubbish that doesnt last ,
I suppose from that we need is a 3rd party whizz kid to make or repair the PCB how hard could it really be it didnt grow as they say it was made

And my reply's aren't defending bosch far from it i just see that there not the only company on the fiddle .

 

[Paulquattro]

Exactly, if your Engine Control Unit (ECU) in your car fails, you can get a new one. Either under warranty, or you pay for a new one out of warranty. But such a part will be available.




No I’m comparing a car engine to an ebike motor. Both are motors. And no you wouldn’t generally scrap a car engine for the sake of an ECU, so why should we have to scrap our ebike engines for the sake of a PCB.

I agree its a shambles but the ECU isn't built into an engine ,
And no internal combustion engines are not motors they cant be compared mechanically or at the same price point , you may as well be comparing an Ebike motor to a vacuum cleaner they have more in common than an engine ever will .
And yes you may get an ECU under warranty for your car or have to pay for one but so might you get an ebike motor under the same circumstance
Price point wise there isnt a lot of difference with a lot of ECUs these days compared to ebike motors in fact the ebike motor is cheap in comparison in a lot of cases .
Again i dont agree with the throwing away of the motor for a PCB but its not an ebike only problem or just Bosch for that matter .


Ps.
Again I dont agree with the situation and I understand your frustrations and others but as they say you pay your money and take your chances .

 

[emin86]

At this moment it seems like the EP801 is the better motor - improved sealing over the EP8 and reportedly at least as powerful as the Bosch CX. Bosch will almost certainly have better seals on their next motor.

before you jump ship to shimano... (as a shimano owner) who has been through 2 motors, Shimano motors cant be serviced period...
if you have an error... it is = buy a replacement from shimano... and it is god awful more expensive then 675.. from what Im seeing in this forum... I believe bosch is the better choice still...