Article When will we have better ebike batteries?

[Rockmount]

I saw a bunch of reports Yamaha motors did well over 10k miles and kept going. But yeah, I can't remember a single report for such high mileage for another brands motors.

10k is quite high mileage for an average and the most common emtb user, so most manufacturers do not care to design more reliable motors, but they are mostly focused on weight to power ratio, weight savings, noise reduction etc because of most people focused on those perameters when they are on the market for a new emtb and people keep believing all emtb motors are reliable enough which is not true. Most of the motors reliable enough to make profit for manufacturers, but most of them are not reliable enough to overcome 10k miles under intensive usage.

Yamaha selling point is reliability, and they can do well over 10k miles easily, but there is a cost - Yamaha motors are a few hundred grams heavier than another brands motors with comparable performance, and they are not the quietest motors.

Hmm ... really, a £200 washing machine is vastly more reliable than a lot of these pos motors. #fact

 

[steve_sordy]

It's a good job then that all the old tin mines in Cornwall (UK) have been discovered to be rich in Lithium.

In Cornwall, ruinous tin and copper mines are yielding battery-grade lithium. Here's what that means.

“IT MAY PROVE of great commercial value,” said chemistry professor William Allen Miller when, in 1864, he realised just how much lithium there was in the...

www.nationalgeographic.co.uk

.

 

[leftside]

It's a good job then that all the old tin mines in Cornwall (UK) have been discovered to be rich in Lithium.

In Cornwall, ruinous tin and copper mines are yielding battery-grade lithium. Here's what that means.

“IT MAY PROVE of great commercial value,” said chemistry professor William Allen Miller when, in 1864, he realised just how much lithium there was in the...

www.nationalgeographic.co.uk

.

Yes it’s great. And with significant investment and time they should be able to successfully get at that battery grade lithium. That’s only step 1 though. Mined lithium then needs to be converted/processed into lithium carbonate or lithium hydroxide for the battery manufacturers. Unfortunately most of these plants are in China, but there are plans to start building them in Europe, North America and Australia. Only cost half a billion to get up up and running.

 

[steve_sordy]

Yes it’s great. And with significant investment and time they should be able to successfully get at that battery grade lithium. That’s only step 1 though. Mined lithium then needs to be converted/processed into lithium carbonate or lithium hydroxide for the battery manufacturers. Unfortunately most of these plants are in China, but there are plans to start building them in Europe, North America and Australia. Only cost half a billion to get up up and running.

I'm sure that will happen. Some companies are planning to build a battery factory in the UK (Megabucks!!). They will need to source their Lithium from somewhere. What is half a billion between friends?

PS: I'm sure you mean dollars, not GBP, so not that expensive after all!

 

[leftside]

I'm sure that will happen. Some companies are planning to build a battery factory in the UK (Megabucks!!). They will need to source their Lithium from somewhere. What is half a billion between friends?

PS: I'm sure you mean dollars, not GBP, so not that expensive after all!

Yeah I think they are planning at least one battery factory in the UK. In the North East? Sunderland? Would be a great way to revitalize the area with a new industry being established.

 

[Labrador29]

I saw a bunch of reports Yamaha motors did well over 10k miles and kept going. But yeah, I can't remember a single report for such high mileage for another brands motors.

10k is quite high mileage for an average and the most common emtb user, so most manufacturers do not care to design more reliable motors, but they are mostly focused on weight to power ratio, weight savings, noise reduction etc because of most people focused on those perameters when they are on the market for a new emtb and people keep believing all emtb motors are reliable enough which is not true. Most of the motors reliable enough to make profit for manufacturers, but most of them are not reliable enough to overcome 10k miles under intensive usage.

Yamaha selling point is reliability, and they can do well over 10k miles easily, but there is a cost - Yamaha motors are a few hundred grams heavier than another brands motors with comparable performance, and they are not the quietest motors.

Well spoken. I have just turned over 10.000km on my Yamaha ( 2019 Giant Trance +1 Pro (500Wh) motor without fault ( touch wood) and battery 177 full cycles. Battery expected to last 700-1000 full cycles. I have no complaints and I might add at least 50% of my mileage is biking to/from the local mountain bike park, the other 50% on the local MTB Park which is mostly Grade 2 and 3, with a little bit of Grade 4 to keep us geriatrics on our toes.

 

[Bearing Man]

Yamaha uses 1 plastic heavy duty helical gear at low torque step (at the motor) for safety (not to stop failures, I hope you understand the difference between safety and failure. If that gear woul be metal it would not cause failure. That plastic geat is to save other metal expensive gears in case you jammed the crank somehow. Another safety reason is that gear shears in case of electrical issue when motor can't stop and rotates at higher not rated torque and you hit the brake) and that gear has no issues, other gears are metal surface hardened gears do not fail even if you hit the crank. Bosch uses plastic for most gears including the high torgue light duty spur gears close the to the ourput crank and those gears fail.

Don't even make me to start explaining to you again all the issues those Bosch gears have and why they actually installed those. That nylon plastic degrade over time making those high loaded spur gears even more prone to fail.

You probably newer asked yourself why Yamaha claims their motors are sealed and maintenance free for life and do not sell any repair or maintenance parts for them and why Bosch sells repair kits for their motors.

Sorry @TPEHAK Not sure where you're getting your info from? But I feel I must point out a couple of things. Plastic gears are used in most ebike motors for noise suppression, weight and cost. It is not a safety consideration and will not shear even if you put the brakes full on and pedal in 1st gear until the bike stops.

Bosch plastic gears from Gen 2 onwards will not degrade in the lifetime of the motor. We have seen so many old high mileage (50,000 Miles +) motors now with no visible issues. In fact, the only time I have ever seen a plastic gear fail has been when the main motor bearing has collapsed and the owner has tried to keep going once all the bearings balls had dropped out! For information:
Gen 1 gears occasionally crack due to excess pressure from the boss they are pressed onto.
Gen 2 gears do not fail.
Gen 3 The large plastic drive gear can shear its teeth the same as the Yamaha does, but very rare as only fitted to road and gravel bikes.
Gen 4 do not use any plastic gears.

Yamaha are actually one of the only manufacturers that do produce a service manual for all their motors! These show motor parts torque settings, grease type and where it should be applied etc. Other manuals for Japanese bikes show internal motor part numbers etc. This information is not supplied for the EU though. I don't know why you are allowed to fix your Yamaha motor in some countries and not others? It maybe EU law or more likely commercial suicide to admit your motor required intervention when all others don't.
Parts are available, you can find new internal parts on our website for example and we can order most internal parts if you require them.

Proof of service requirement would be the fact, that without fresh lubrication, the bronze bush bearings that support the crankshaft through the large steel drive gear will wear the crankshaft away without fresh grease every 1500 - 2000 Miles.

 

[TPEHAK]

So the crankshaft on my Yamaha motor with 8000 miles I never serviced is worn away? My Yamaha motor user manual says no service needed for life. Maybe they required service for their first generation motors many years ago but then figured out how to make maintenance free motors.

 

[Bearing Man]

So the crankshaft on my Yamaha motor with 8000 miles I never serviced is worn away? My Yamaha motor user manual says no service needed for life. Maybe they required service for their first generation motors many years ago but then figured out how to make maintenance free motors.

Not worn away, but wearing. Unfortunately, the huge pile of evidence we have here speaks for itself. The motors have not changed internally for many years, the oldest PW motor has the same mechanical internal parts as the latest PW-CE, TE & ST motors. Only the PW-X range have changed slightly, but these still rely on bronze bushes rather than bearings for the steel gear. Although, the crankshaft does appear to be a little more robust so far.

As I stated previously, Yamaha don't specify service for their motors in Europe. But, the 'how to do the service' and 'what you need for the service' was still included with PW-SE until the TE was released and has now been removed for the latest PW-X PW-CE, PW-TE and PW-ST motors. Shame really because they will still suffer excessive wear without a little maintenance.

Please don't get me wrong. Yamaha PW and PW-SE, CE, TE and ST were and are some of the best motors on the market! They will last space ship mileage if used on road (no motor lasts well off road) and, I have a big respect for these motors. I do hope the PW-X3 gets over the issues suffered by the PW-X and X2 though.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

So the crankshaft on my Yamaha motor with 8000 miles I never serviced is worn away? My Yamaha motor user manual says no service needed for life. Maybe they required service for their first generation motors many years ago but then figured out how to make maintenance free motors.

I've yet to find a bearing that lasts forever, or even a number of years.
I've serviced a hell of a lot of hubs and always found it feels smooth spinning the wheel, till you get it out and its gritty and sometimes cant be easily turned by hand.
Bearings wear, and water which appears to be our biggest problem washes out the grease, and that means its fooked. Just using it constantly and thinking its fine does not mean it is. And ill wager if you removed it you'd find it is in need of replacement.

 

[imax]

I often ride my Merida e160 8000 carbon without a battery and besides imp my fitness she moves along very nicely.