Fires

[steve_sordy]

..........The amount of jobs these fires have created is huge. The rebuilding effort etc etc. It's even better as the insurance companies will have to foot much of the rebuilding cost. So the government doesn't even have to pay a stimulus as the insurance companies will do it for them. ............

The UK financial press says that quite a lot of the risk borne by the Australian insurance companies was sold on to Lloyds of London. So there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth in London this year. The risk taken by the Lloyd's names is unlimited, so if they can't pay, everything they own is taken from them. Expect all your insurance premiums to be higher come renewal time. Also expect the insurance companies to be lobbying the Australian government for action to reduce the incidence of major fires like this. If the government don't take action, expect the insurance companies to refuse to take on the risk in certain areas, or make it so expensive that people can't afford it.

Something similar happened in the UK, but with floods. People living on flood plains just could not get/afford flood insurance, so the UK government had to set up a scheme to subsidise the risk. (Because that is cheaper than fixing the problem of course!!)

 

[steve_sordy]

@ryturn Many thanks for your commentary ryturn, it has been a revelation. Your sparse, yet hearfelt sentences have evoked many deep feelings from those that I have shared with. Eye-opening!

I'm really not sure which is worse floods or fire. Sadly your country gets both on an epic scale. Fortunately we only get the floods, but as bad as they can be, they pale in comparison with what happened further north a few years ago.

 

[Mikerb]

I admit to not reading the entirety of this thread so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. I have followed the horrendous scenes in Australia and have huge sympathy for all those affected. I try to find alternative sources of information to the mainstream media most of whom are only interested in pursuing political agendas and making money from dramatic events. In the short term obviously the priority is to help all of those affected and to start rebuilding their lives. Then of course questions need to be asked why the annual forest fire season has been so devastating this year both in terms of timing and intensity, and set out a strategy to minimise future risks. I fear those responsible for mismanagement of the environment in many parts of Australia will merely pin the blame on Climate Change ( which in my opinion is naïve...….Climate Change is about very small increases in average global temperature, not localised weather patterns. El Nino has a far greater effect on Australia than global temperature increase even if you believe that increase is anything more than the normal variation pattern ). Parts of Australia are in the sub tropical zone and both drought, and extreme temperatures are features of land in that zone. The topology of the complete continent with desert in the Northern Territory and a more verdant zone around the southern/ sw/se perimeter also suggests the way water resources are distributed via springs, rivers/creeks. How much of what I have read is accurate is hard for me to tell but it does seem that both mismanagement of water supplies to feed enterprises like cotton farming/other water hungry agricultural practises, and the huge amounts of water consumed by extensive fracking operations, together with reservoirs created by dams, all contribute to making parts of the land much drier than they would otherwise be. I have also seen reports of how the Aborigines managed their forested lands with controlled burns to remove dry materials from the forest floor..... a practise banned by the influence of the green lobby. Maybe wilder speculation but I have also read claims that attempts to increase rainfall using cloud seeding techniques has led to the chemicals used in cloud seeding being carried into the soil and water supplies in a measureable way. One of the chemicals/metals being Aluminium Oxide which is flammable. How much any or all of this is blame for the catastrophe this year I don't know but any and all theories should now be explored to find a way to avoid repeats of this years events. My sympathies to all those affected.

 

[wepn]

I fear those responsible for mismanagement of the environment in many parts of Australia will merely pin the blame on Climate Change

This is a widespread misconception.

The hard-right conservative LNP (Liberal National Party) governs federally and in NSW. They are responsible for the management of the environment or as you rightfully label it, mismanagement.

Although the tide is beginning to turn, they are not pinning the blame on climate change. They blame environmentalists and arsonists due to their close links to the fossil fuel industry. Political donations & employment of retired politicians as lobbyists are the source of those links.

Environmentalists have very little to zero power or sway in Australia.

 

[Pdoz]

I How much of what I have read is accurate is hard for me to tell but it does seem that both mismanagement of water supplies to feed enterprises like cotton farming/other water hungry agricultural practises, and the huge amounts of water consumed by extensive fracking operations, together with reservoirs created by dams, all contribute to making parts of the land much drier than they would otherwise be. I have also seen reports of how the Aborigines managed their forested lands with controlled burns to remove dry materials from the forest floor..... a practise banned by the influence of the green lobby. .

Whilst water mismanagement is a huge issue for our nation, it'd be hard to explain how it contributes to the se fires. ( taking into consideration catchment patterns vs areas burnt - not many dams in the burnt regions! ) . If you are aware of an explanation I'd love to hear it.

The changes to back burning and greens influence is political / big business disinformation manipulation IMHO . I'll echo wepn's sentiments but add budget cut backs to forestry services under both major parties. The widely publicised nowa nowa protest is another example of misinformation - that small group were trying to stop an out of season burn that threatened local ( nesting) wildlife - NOT stop back-burning in general ( which did occur and those areas have still burnt in these fires) . Traditionally planned burns occur in Autumn around here but we still had massive fires going in March 2019 - it's been a weird season.

The aboriginal burning argument is also worth challenging. Whilst we have reasonably good data and knowledge about practices in the north, there isn't a lot of data about practices in the se of oz - Again, if you have legitimate information sources I'd like to see them.

 

[wepn]

I really really needed rays of hope. The ancient Wollemi's have been saved.

Thank you to the airborne firefighters. Like all firefighters, you are true heroes.

'Dinosaur trees': firefighters save endangered Wollemi pines from NSW bushfires

 

[ryturn]

This is a widespread misconception.

The hard-right conservative LNP (Liberal National Party) governs federally and in NSW. They are responsible for the management of the environment or as you rightfully label it, mismanagement.

Although the tide is beginning to turn, they are not pinning the blame on climate change. They blame environmentalists and arsonists due to their close links to the fossil fuel industry. Political donations & employment of retired politicians as lobbyists are the source of those links.

Environmentalists have very little to zero power or sway in Australia.

Wepn is right .....the greens are copping the blame for this but not a state or federal government in Australia is controlled by or do they hold the balance of power by greens.We have been in drought for who knows how long every Park ranger or Forestry person picked this as a bad year Australia is crisp.Fuel Reduction Burns help most years in the past but not this ,l saw footage last week of a fire sweeping across farm land ,no grass , no stubble it was carried by the gas coming off the land

 

[wepn]

I know some may not appreciate political examination here. The solution is simple - Ignore me. Click on wepn then Ignore. Me & my ramblings will disappear.

For others who are interested in the future of our children & future generations, political examination is crucial. If we are to be prepared for future mega fires, we need to look at the facts.

This article in The New Yorker provides succinct examination.

When Will Australia’s Prime Minister Accept the Reality of the Climate Crisis?

Scott Morisson as Prime Minister bears ultimate responsibility.

As recently as 2017, when he was Australia’s treasurer—and when, according to the International Energy Agency, Australia exported more coal than any other country in the world—he brought a lump of coal to Parliament and presented it to his fellow-members as if they were primary-school students. “This is coal. Don’t be afraid! Don’t be scared! Won’t hurt you,” he said. He did not mention that the coal had been shellacked to prevent his hands from getting dirty.

The shellack didn’t work. His hands are covered in coal dust & incinerated rainforest.

The 60 million year ancient Gondwana rainforests could have been saved.

Morrison ignored requests from a group of former firefighters for a meeting last spring, in which they planned to warn him of the need for more water bombers.

Those heavy firefighting aircraft are due to arrive next week, just as the colossal firefighting mission is winding down. Months too late for the now critically endangered & newly extinct species of our most precious flora & fauna.

 

[Coopers]

While our corrupt politicians are being payed off into crypto currencies or Swiss bank accounts by big oil and mining companies, nothing will change. Australia in not alone in this corruption of supposed democracy. Big money runs the world.

 

[Pdoz]

This is a burnt stick...don't be afraid...it'll only hurt a little...penny wong smiles at a worried slimo.

 

[wepn]

While our corrupt politicians are being payed off into crypto currencies or Swiss bank accounts by big oil and mining

I never contemplated that possibility but if that is reality then we're headed for a dark, dystopian future.

This is a burnt stick...don't be afraid...it'll only hurt a little...penny wong smiles at a worried slimo.

There'll be a stampede to assist. Smirko should be worried but he doesn't seem to be. He must be counting on his quiet Australians.

BTW my opinions are genuinely not based on ideology. I'd have the same opinion of anyone who fucked up on a global scale like he has.

 

[Mikerb]

Again I am not Australian so I can only judge based on what is reported from various sources but absent from anything I have read is any widespread warning that such a catastrophe could occur. Regardless of political preferences it seems to me fruitless in terms of trying to fix the problem for the future to critisize Govt. No one in Govt plans to see large swathes of the country burn. The situation calls for everyone to focus on solutions rather than blame so I hope that is what now happens rather than using the tradegy for political gain.

 

[wepn]

The UK financial press says that quite a lot of the risk borne by the Australian insurance companies was sold on to Lloyds of London.

Not sure how I missed this but it seems to have more than a hint of truth - except that I can't find anything about it. Do you have any links to those reports?

Not suggesting anything about the veracity of the reports whatsoever just made me think how very interesting it is that conservative, neo-conservative whatever media reports hide behind paywalls. Monetising the search for the truth by the misinformed.

 

[Pdoz]

Again I am not Australian so I can only judge based on what is reported from various sources but absent from anything I have read is any widespread warning that such a catastrophe could occur. Regardless of political preferences it seems to me fruitless in terms of trying to fix the problem for the future to critisize Govt. No one in Govt plans to see large swathes of the country burn. The situation calls for everyone to focus on solutions rather than blame so I hope that is what now happens rather than using the tradegy for political gain.

Sadly, you are not going to see evidence of the warnings because public servants / govt employees and even the volunteer firefighters are limited in what they can say publicly. . Have a read of this to get some insight into what is happening in this country Federal police raid home of News Corp journalist Annika Smethurst

The warnings WERE made , and the predicted map was frighteningly accurate
Bushfire season: Australia warned to prepare early amid grim outlook

 

[Mikerb]

Warning people to be prepared because of drought and the oncoming summer heat is not what I meant given that those conditions are relatively normal annual circumstances. The issue is why the annual bush fires were more extensive this year. That has to be something to do with the management of those areas prone to fire. Ps....the Guardian is probably the worse source of balanced information on anything. It has a single political agenda.

 

[wepn]

That has to be something to do with the management of those areas prone to fire. Ps....the Guardian is probably the worse source of balanced information on anything

That would be the federal government, the state government of NSW, other federal & state governments past & present from both sides of the aisle but mostly the right. Those areas prone include most of Australia.

Which news sources do you recommend?

 

[steve_sordy]

Not sure how I missed this but it seems to have more than a hint of truth - except that I can't find anything about it. Do you have any links to those reports? .........

I was not reacting to any particular report or piece of research that I had seen, I just know that the big UK based insurers and Lloyds of London in particular take on risk all over the world from other insurers. This is similar to the way that bookies lay off bets that are too big for them. They take the bet because it's what they do, but if the bet had to be paid and it would break them, then they sell on (called "laying off") part of the bet to other bookies.
A quick Google revealed this. I didn't have to look hard at all.
Insurers brace themselves for cost of Australian wildfire destruction | This is Money

I am surprised at how small the losses are feared to be, up to £320m. I guess that the scrub itself has little value. So the figure will be payouts for death and injury, but probably mostly property, business disruption and the like.

 

[Mikerb]

That would be the federal government, the state government of NSW, other federal & state governments past & present from both sides of the aisle but mostly the right. Those areas prone include most of Australia.

Which news sources do you recommend?

Whether you try to follow politics in the US, the UK or worldwide, the established media has proven themselves to be completely partisan both in the selection of stories they cover and the spin they put on events they cover. In the US for example both CNN and NBC have been adequately exposed now as spreading politically motivated propaganda and are now thankfully suffering lawsuits and rock bottom viewing figures as a result. The situation with media in the UK even including the BBC is not much better.
The only alternative is the Internet and there are a few commentators who actually live in Australia who report on what they see happening around them. Obviously you need to be selective and able to spot someone who is just promoting conspiracy theories to get subscribers and hits so it means canvassing as much as you can find and making your own judgement.

 

[Mikerb]

Here is one guy who seems to me to talk a lot of sense on a range of science related subjects albeit some of his stuff is a bit difficult to follow if you lack scientific training. This video is not complicated however and he seems to nail all the important points to me

 

[Pdoz]

Warning people to be prepared because of drought and the oncoming summer heat is not what I meant given that those conditions are relatively normal annual circumstances. The issue is why the annual bush fires were more extensive this year. That has to be something to do with the management of those areas prone to fire. Ps....the Guardian is probably the worse source of balanced information on anything. It has a single political agenda.

Mike, the current conditions are NOT normal. The warnings were made because this is the worst recorded drought in the areas that are burning AND at the same time there were concerns about our fire fighting resources due to multiple budget cuts / lack of investment / volunteer burn out AND climate change meaning we didn't have our ( shared) air fleet from the us in time. Add in difficulties running planned burns because they were still fighting fires early this year when they would normally be starting them!

The dam on my property is dry for the first time in the 20 years I've lived here. We were evacuated in March due to fire threats that were months later than usual, yet these current fires started a month earlier than usual. They spread quicker than usual because it's tinder dry out there . Add in several runs of extreme weather and limited resources...then mix politics / economics / and a city based population more worried about having their retirement taxed than their grandchildren survive

 

[ryturn]

I know some may not appreciate political examination here. The solution is simple - Ignore me. Click on wepn then Ignore. Me & my ramblings will disappear.

For others who are interested in the future of our children & future generations, political examination is crucial. If we are to be prepared for future mega fires, we need to look at the facts.

This article in The New Yorker provides succinct examination.

When Will Australia’s Prime Minister Accept the Reality of the Climate Crisis?

Scott Morisson as Prime Minister bears ultimate responsibility.



The shellack didn’t work. His hands are covered in coal dust & incinerated rainforest.

The 60 million year ancient Gondwana rainforests could have been saved.



Those heavy firefighting aircraft are due to arrive next week, just as the colossal firefighting mission is winding down. Months too late for the now critically endangered & newly extinct species of our most precious flora & fauna.

Mike, the current conditions are NOT normal. The warnings were made because this is the worst recorded drought in the areas that are burning AND at the same time there were concerns about our fire fighting resources due to multiple budget cuts / lack of investment / volunteer burn out AND climate change meaning we didn't have our ( shared) air fleet from the us in time. Add in difficulties running planned burns because they were still fighting fires early this year when they would normally be starting them!

The dam on my property is dry for the first time in the 20 years I've lived here. We were evacuated in March due to fire threats that were months later than usual, yet these current fires started a month earlier than usual. They spread quicker than usual because it's tinder dry out there . Add in several runs of extreme weather and limited resources...then mix politics / economics / and a city based population more worried about having their retirement taxed than their grandchildren survive

Pdoz is correct ...these are far from NORMAL conditions unprecedented fire conditions and fire behaviour has been brought about by drought and our forests / farmland having minimal moisture content.

 

[Mikerb]

We can only hope this years events lead to positive action to mitigate risks for next summer. As is normally the case disasters happen as a result of multiple factors some of which can be controlled whilst others cannot. The lessons need to be learnt this time.

 

[wepn]

difficult to follow if you lack scientific training

Difficult to follow if you have a scientific background - I recommend David Attenborough. Yes I know, he's a bit radical isn't he.

 

[Mikerb]

lol...….typical of the media standard!! A poll of 2000 lefty Express readers pick 2 luvvies and a self styled celebrity millionaire and that translates to a headline suggesting "public" opinion!

 

[ryturn]

he was chosen 2nd most favorite pick to become next Australian Prime Minister 1st chice was Jacinda Ardern

 

[Mikerb]

.....the world champion virtue signaller.....

 

[Pdoz]

Mike, have a read of this.
Why Australians must rage at Prime Minister ScoMo - Sarah Wilson

Nb as much as I'm ashamed that our country elected scummo , I don't hold any political hopes for a solution - once this news cycle has finished the masses will carry on as usual

 

[Mikerb]

2 sides to every story mate. Your PM is however right. There is no link between climate change and the Australian fires.....even the IPCC has stated that. The Climate Change evangelists do more harm than good and it is little wonder that governments either ignore them or give them lip service. I have no reason to defend your PM but raging at him or Govt will do nothing to find ways to mitigate the bush fire problem. I could list a number of things flawed about the argument in the link you provided just to demonstrate that it is the kind of argument that is unhelpful. For example 75% of Australia's mined coal is exported....and it is the 5th largest export for Australia so would take a lot to replace that income and those jobs if it was curtailed. That is the conundrum facing most of the G20......only half of whom are anywhere near meeting the targets they signed up to. Meanwhile the rest of the world outside the industrially developed world are increasing Co2 emissions. You probably guessed I do not have a lot of time for the Climate Change lobby! It is mostly political and based on highly questionable science and flawed research. The track record of that science since 1989 has been singularly poor.....not one single prediction has been even remotely accurate! I support finding alternative sources of energy however but for the reason of reducing pollution and reducing our dependence on oil, mostly source from the Middle East. At the same time I do not believe the current crop of battery powered electric cars or solar/wind power are viable alternatives. Nitrogen combustion and Nuclear Fision are more promising technologies and both are developing fast......and IBM have recently announced they are developing a new fast charging, more powerful battery technology that uses materials sourced from sea water ...no heavy metals etc. So technology will deliver our future......not doom mongering!

 

[wepn]

Enough nonsense.
NPWS & RFS Hotshots at work
Password is NPWSpines

 

[Pdoz]

Ryturn, how are you going? Do you get any respite from the clean up? Are you able to get away for some rest / recovery ?