To grease or not to grease, that is the question

[EMTBSEAN]

Good afternoon guys,

I watched some YouTube videos about fitting cassettes and the opinions are varied weather or to use grease, last year I bought some Hope fortus 30’s with the new Pro 5 ebike hubs and I applied a small amount of marine grease on the free hub before I fitted the cassette, today during one of my in-depth cleaning regimes I discovered that the 1-4 set of gears was moving slightly more independently of the rest, I removed the grease, gave the free hub and cassette a clean, refitted the cassette and now there’s no independent movement, what I would like to know is there a need to even use grease or not, I also discovered that the free hub and cassette were thick with greasy grit, your opinions are important to me and I apologise for the long winded post, thanks guys

 

[James_C]

personally I don't think its required , I always assemble this dry.

 

[steve_sordy]

I do not grease the cassette to hub interface.

The greasy grey grit may be the aluminium of the freehub splines under attack from the cassette, mixed in with the grease that you applied.

As for the freehub internals, whether you use a medium or light grease, or just a light oil will depend upon what the manufacture recommends. Using a heavier lubricant (grease or oil) can either stifle the machine gun rattle of the freehub overrun or (if you use a lighter one) allow it to rip!

 

[EMTBSEAN]

Thanks buddy, that’s what I’m going to do too, I’ve just discovered that the cassette I bought off of Amazon is a fake part too, it looked genuine but after a go in my ultrasonic cleaner most of the paint is flaking off, fortunately I kept my previous cassette which has some life left in it which is now in my ultrasonic cleaner, I’ll fit that as I’m riding this Saturday and order a new cassette, lesson learned there

 

[EMTBSEAN]

I do not grease the cassette to hub interface.

The greasy grey grit may be the aluminium of the freehub splines under attack from the cassette, mixed in with the grease that you applied.

As for the freehub internals, whether you use a medium or light grease, or just a light oil will depend upon what the manufacture recommends. Using a heavier lubricant (grease or oil) can either stifle the machine gun rattle of the freehub overrun or allow it to rip!

Thanks Steve I didn’t think about that, no more grease in the assembly process, Hope recommend not using anything other than marine grease in their hubs, I got in touch with them before I bought the new wheels with regards to quietening the hubs, I hate loud hubs, they advised me not to add any extra as they come with a specific amount of grease

 

[steve_sordy]

Thanks buddy, that’s what I’m going to do too, I’ve just discovered that the cassette I bought off of Amazon is a fake part too, it looked genuine but after a go in my ultrasonic cleaner most of the paint is flaking off, fortunately I kept my previous cassette which has some life left in it which is now in my ultrasonic cleaner, I’ll fit that as I’m riding this Saturday and order a new cassette, lesson learned there

Bastards! Are you going to complain to Amazon? I'm sure that they will be happy to hear from you and to take action against the supplier. A few photos would help.

 

[EMTBSEAN]

Bastards! Are you going to complain to Amazon? I'm sure that they will be happy to hear from you and to take action against the supplier. A few photos would help.

I doubt they'll be able to do anything now Steve, I bought it over a year ago, i've just checked my service record book (I know I'm sad)and its been on my bike since June 2023, I suppose I can't complain really, it's lasted longer than the original one, only negative is that the paint is flaking off, aside from that it's still in half decent condition, I should have been suspicious when I saw how good a price it was, less than 30% cheaper than everyone else, it's the old saying, "if it looks too good to be true, it usually is" I'll be alert next time, I'm on Google now searching for one along with the service kit for my Charger Damper RC2.1, I looked at the one I was recommended to buy but in the picture it's the wrong air spring foot nut and seal head piston, mine has the larger red seal head piston and red foot nut, I've been shopping around as the only one I can find is around £80+, why are hobbies or obsessions so friggin expensive

 

[RustyIron]

your opinions are important to me

I suppose arguments could be made for either way. I slop a thin film on both parts before assembly. Back in the olden days, the cassette might develop a creak if assembled dry. I don't know if it's still that way because I don't assemble those parts dry. I think a thin coating also inhibits corrosion.

The threads are completely different. Antiseize is necessary. Some are of the opinion that grease on the threads is adequate. Maybe it is. But one thing is certain: Assembling any threads dry on a bike is shoddy workmanship that leads to galling. Don't do it.

 

[Mikerb]

grease is both a lubricant and can act as a weather seal. As a lubricant it is advisable wherever one metal part moves a gainst another and as an anti friction lubricant on threads to help ensure the correct torque setting is achieved.
So as far as casette/freehubs are concerned it is relevant to differentiate between different set ups. A cassette fitted over a HG or Microspline freehub does not need grease. A cassette fitted over a XD freehub needs to have a small a mount of grease on the threads of the cassette since thereis no separate fixing nut.
For the freehub again there are differences. A freehub that has 3 or more pawls needs a very small amount of light grease on the areas where each pawl pivots. A freehub that uses a DT Swiss ratchet mechanism should have DT Swiss Special Grease( red) thinly applied to the ratchets.
Areas often overlooked in the overall set up is weather sealing. The freehub will have a seal that sits against the hub. Some grease on that helps to maintain a good weather seal. End caps usually have both a metal to metal lip and a thin rubber o ring. Applying some grease helps to ensure the o ring does not shrink and that the end cap provide a good weather seal.

 

[steve_sordy]

I doubt they'll be able to do anything now Steve, I bought it over a year ago, i've just checked my service record book (I know I'm sad)and its been on my bike since June 2023, I suppose I can't complain really, it's lasted longer than the original one, only negative is that the paint is flaking off, aside from that it's still in half decent condition, ...................

If it has lasted that well, then are you sure it's a fake?
Even if it is a fake, it has lasted well, so why not buy another if it is so cheap?

PS: I too keep a service record. This is not something I am embarrassed about as it has enabled me to know for certain when things were bought, how long they have lasted etc and have provided facts for warranty claims. (1 rear axle and associated bearings, 1 new 4-amp charger, 2 tyres, 2 cassettes, 3 freehubs and associated bearings, oh, and a Fox 38 service). And they are just the ones I can remember immediately.

 

[skinnyboy]

"and as an anti friction lubricant on threads to help ensure the correct torque setting is achieved."-Mikerb

In almost all cases (can't remember an exception off hand) this will lead to over torqued fasteners. Clean and dry for fasteners to allow correct torque.

Cheers.

 

[RickBullotta]

I doubt they'll be able to do anything now Steve, I bought it over a year ago, i've just checked my service record book (I know I'm sad)and its been on my bike since June 2023, I suppose I can't complain really, it's lasted longer than the original one, only negative is that the paint is flaking off, aside from that it's still in half decent condition, I should have been suspicious when I saw how good a price it was, less than 30% cheaper than everyone else, it's the old saying, "if it looks too good to be true, it usually is" I'll be alert next time, I'm on Google now searching for one along with the service kit for my Charger Damper RC2.1, I looked at the one I was recommended to buy but in the picture it's the wrong air spring foot nut and seal head piston, mine has the larger red seal head piston and red foot nut, I've been shopping around as the only one I can find is around £80+, why are hobbies or obsessions so friggin expensive

Be sure to add a negative Amazon review for the fake cassette though.

 

[RustyIron]

I too keep a service record. This is not something I am embarrassed about as it has enabled me to know for certain when things were bought, how long they have lasted

I'm embarrassed for those who do NOT keep service records. How do they know when it's time to bleed the brakes? How do they know when to service the headset? What about freehubs? Pedals? I have a spreadsheet for every bike I've owned going back to 2008.

 

[theremotejuggernaut]

If the lockring was tight, there's no way a bit of grease was responsible for the cassette moving around.

Must have been loose.

 

[Mikerb]

"and as an anti friction lubricant on threads to help ensure the correct torque setting is achieved."-Mikerb

In almost all cases (can't remember an exception off hand) this will lead to over torqued fasteners. Clean and dry for fasteners to allow correct torque.

Cheers.

In that case I have overtorqued every fastener on every race car, motorbike and bike I have built/serviced/rebuilt and in the last 50+ years. Strange that I have never experienced a single machine screw or bolt shear, or come loose on any of those machines.............neither have I had any of them seize!

 

[Barry S]

I doubt they'll be able to do anything now Steve, I bought it over a year ago, i've just checked my service record book (I know I'm sad)and its been on my bike since June 2023, I suppose I can't complain really, it's lasted longer than the original one, only negative is that the paint is flaking off, aside from that it's still in half decent condition, I should have been suspicious when I saw how good a price it was, less than 30% cheaper than everyone else, it's the old saying, "if it looks too good to be true, it usually is" I'll be alert next time, I'm on Google now searching for one along with the service kit for my Charger Damper RC2.1, I looked at the one I was recommended to buy but in the picture it's the wrong air spring foot nut and seal head piston, mine has the larger red seal head piston and red foot nut, I've been shopping around as the only one I can find is around £80+, why are hobbies or obsessions so friggin expensive

Just a possibly controversial thought - if "it's lasted longer than the original one" and "was 30% cheaper", assuming it worked OK too, what's the actual problem in this specific case? (apart from the obvious issue that fakery is illegal, and usually fakes are poor quality), I'd simply ask that if they properly identify it as "whatever-brand", then you'll buy another.

 

[skinnyboy]

In that case I have overtorqued every fastener on every race car, motorbike and bike I have built/serviced/rebuilt and in the last 50+ years. Strange that I have never experienced a single machine screw or bolt shear, or come loose on any of those machines.............neither have I had any of them seize!

Wasn't trying to offend! Glad it has worked for yourself. Just wanted to advise anyone not familiar with standard practice.

Lubricated Bolts and Reduced Torque

Lubrication effect on bolt tension and torque.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Cheers.

 

[timo2824]

I always lightly grease, but it's to keep away corrosion not lubricant anything. I don't think the grease was causing the independent play on your cassette, more likely the lock nut was loose.

 

[EMTBSEAN]

Sorry for the late reply guys, it’s been one of those weeks due to witnessing first hand hand a guy trying to take his own life via a knife to his neck and head, it’s sort of traumatised me a little with flashbacks and nightmares, I was trying to catch him and apply pressure to his wounds but he was running away and didn’t want helping so I just couldn’t catch him.

 

[EMTBSEAN]

It was definitely a fake and I don’t want another one as the paint was flaking off and mixing with the chain lube, anyway it’s in the bin now and I have a new cassette fitted, without any lube this time too, strangely enough the new genuine cassette is not a tight fit, it’s got a small amount of movement so I’m wondering if my Hope free hub has been damaged, maybe an aluminium shim would help take up any slack here, I have looked for a shim but I can’t find any commercially

 

[Mikerb]

Wasn't trying to offend! Glad it has worked for yourself. Just wanted to advise anyone not familiar with standard practice.

Lubricated Bolts and Reduced Torque

Lubrication effect on bolt tension and torque.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Cheers.

no offence taken...just to point out, the torque specified for various bolts on our bikes does not declare whether " dry or lubricated", most are ally rather than steel, none are course thread, and none are subject to heat ( as in an engine block). My experience has been that where a bolt should be fixed dry, that is stated/common mechanic knowledge. Various different motor manufacturers specify either dry or lubed for head cyclinder bolts for example. In most circumstances on motor vehicles a lubricant ( preferably Moly) is used to prevent seizing and galling.

 

[Mikerb]

It was definitely a fake and I don’t want another one as the paint was flaking off and mixing with the chain lube, anyway it’s in the bin now and I have a new cassette fitted, without any lube this time too, strangely enough the new genuine cassette is not a tight fit, it’s got a small amount of movement so I’m wondering if my Hope free hub has been damaged, maybe an aluminium shim would help take up any slack here, I have looked for a shim but I can’t find any commercially

just going back to your original post, grease has nothing to do with a cassette..or a section of it...being loose. There are 4 potential reasons for that.
1. incorrect assembly...especially if the cassette is not of the one piece variety...wrong spacer in the wrong place
2. The cassette is broken ( ie a part not held by the pins)
3 The locknut is not tightened to torque
4. There are some hub/freehub brands that require a shim at the back of the cassette for certain cassettes.

It may help others help if you to specify what hub and freehub you are using and what cassette you are fitting.

 

[EMTBSEAN]

Thanks for your reply Mike, the cassette I have is the Sram PG1230 and it’s fitted onto a Hope pro 5 HG style freehub, it never had a shim fitted and I’ve fitted it in exactly the same way that all the previous cassettes have been fitted, here’s an interesting thing though, I kept the previous cassette, the one I fitted before the fake and when that’s tightened to 40nM like the latest lock ring, it’s got no movement whatsoever, on the PG1230, the cassette is made up of many parts, gears 1-4 is one solid assembly, all of the rest are separates with a plastic washer in between finished off with the lock ring

 

[RickBullotta]

no offence taken...just to point out, the torque specified for various bolts on our bikes does not declare whether " dry or lubricated", most are ally rather than steel, none are course thread, and none are subject to heat ( as in an engine block). My experience has been that where a bolt should be fixed dry, that is stated/common mechanic knowledge. Various different motor manufacturers specify either dry or lubed for head cyclinder bolts for example. In most circumstances on motor vehicles a lubricant ( preferably Moly) is used to prevent seizing and galling.

I don't know what your approach is, but if I'm re-torquing a bolt, I always loosen it a bit first so that I'm not fighting against dirt, galling, or other "extra" friction.

 

[steve_sordy]

............ maybe an aluminium shim would help take up any slack here, I have looked for a shim but I can’t find any commercially

I have made seatpost shims from old bits of metal sheet lying about. How about coke cans, beer cans etc.

 

[johnnystorm]

Fwiw I don't think I've ever fitted a cassette without greasing all the splines and never had an issue. I have however had problems with parts seized in place so I'll take potential greased problems over seized on ones! Perhaps the increased wear that ebikes puts on gears makes it a moot point. It'll be replaced before it has a chance to get stuck!

 

[EMTBSEAN]

I have made seatpost shims from old bits of metal sheet lying about. How about coke cans, beer cans etc.

Thanks for your feedback Steve, I’ve got an old cider can made from quite thick aluminium, I saved it for another project but it wasn’t needed for that, I never threw it away just in case it came in handy, I’m glad I didn’t now