Shimano/SRAM 12 speed compatibility [now a 10 speed thread]

You need to talk to @Zimmerframe and ask him what sort of derailleur protector he is using.
Breaks or bends most everything else so he must have a good one.
Then again,
adult.jpg
his training wheels probably give some protection.
 
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MrTeno2U said:
It's now a 10 speed, and I doubt I'll ever go back. So far, so simple. I know time will tell, but this is the first time I have felt good about this bike in at least a month.
Click to expand...
^ Fantastic!
I hope this is the end of your drivetrain shifting woes. (y)

Now, it might pay to make one last check... do you have the correct chain length?

On my Trance with a 36T chainring and an 11-42T 10 speed cassette - my appointed chain length is 120 links. After shifting to my largest cog (42T), the derailleur cage is drawn and facing forward BUT has a bit more give to allow for suspension movement.

I'm just concerned that with your larger 11-46T 10 speed cassette, a chain length of 118 links (you previously mentioned) might not be long enough.

It looks OK judging by your latest pic above, but the only way to be really sure is to (after cleaning it first :eek:):
• shift to your 46T cog
• take the top pivot bolts off your rear shock to allow your rear suspension to depress fully.
• your derailleur cage should be as full forward as possible but with still a slight kink, meaning your chain still has a small amount of 'give.'
• if your chain is fully stretched, and prevents your rear suspension from depressing fully - then your chain is too short.

If your chain is too short, there is a chance you could snap that chain if you happen to be on the largest cog (46T in your case), should your rear suspension bottom out. Whether the chain snaps or not, the above condition may bend or stress other things that could spell alignment grief.
 
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GrandPaBrogan said:
^ Fantastic!
I hope this is the end of your drivetrain shifting woes. (y)

Now, it might pay to make one last check... do you have the correct chain length?

On my Trance with a 36T chainring and an 11-42T 10 speed cassette - my appointed chain length is 120 links. After shifting to my largest cog (42T), the derailleur cage is drawn and facing forward BUT has a bit more give to allow for suspension movement.

I'm just concerned that with your larger 11-46T 10 speed cassette, a chain length of 118 links (you previously mentioned) might not be long enough.

It looks OK judging by your latest pic above, but the only way to be really sure is to (after cleaning it first :eek:):
• shift to your 46T cog
• take the top pivot bolts off your rear shock to allow your rear suspension to depress fully.
• your derailleur cage should be as full forward as possible but with still a slight kink, meaning your chain still has a small amount of 'give.'
• if your chain is fully stretched, and prevents your rear suspension from depressing fully - then your chain is too short.

If your chain is too short, there is a chance you could snap that chain if you happen to be on the largest cog (46T in your case), should your rear suspension bottom out. Whether the chain snaps or not, the above condition may bend or stress other things that could spell alignment grief.
Click to expand...
I did let all the air out of the shock, and collapsed the suspension in 1st gear, to check chain length.

It's all looks good with a little left in the derailleur to spare.

I'm running a 34t chain ring...

I might check it again based on your chain length requirement. I've been wrong before.
 
I checked it again (chain length) and 118 links is ok. Counted them twice to be sure I can still count... I can.

I let all the air out of the shock and completely collapsed the suspension in first gear.

I can reach down and still pull up the derailleur creating easily about an inch of slack, while sitting on the bike, in first gear, with suspension completely collapsed.
 
I did add the extra 1" of chain when splitting the new shimano 10 sp chain and at 120 links it's better I think. The shifting seems easier at the trigger and smoother with less of a clunk on up shifts.Thanks for the heads up grandpa.

My next experiment, hehe, will be an 8 speed attempt for under $100 USD.

Sram shifter 8 speed $18
Zee FR derailleur $45
Sunrace CSM680 11-40T $22

Haven't picked out my chain yet, but 8 speed chains are cheap, so even if I have to buy 2 for the required length, it will be less than most 10 or 11 speed chains.

I know this is controversial, and I've read reports of the zee making the stretch to 40T easy, and some who said it couldn't. I will know first hand soon enough.

The sram 8 and 9 speed shifters are said to have the correct ratio to make any shimano 10 speed clutched derailleur compatible with 8 or 9 speed cassettes.

I'll be back.
 
I'm really hoping this 8 speed thing works, and I can live with the reduced range and wider ratio gaps between gears. I ordered every item needed today to create an 8 speed clutched driveline with 11-40 range for 99$. LoL. 22$ cassette and 9$ chain. Are you kidding me!
 
MrTeno2U said:
I'm really hoping this 8 speed thing works, and I can live with the reduced range and wider ratio gaps between gears. I ordered every item needed today to create an 8 speed clutched driveline with 11-40 range for 99$. LoL. 22$ cassette and 9$ chain. Are you kidding me!
Click to expand...
I'll be looking forward to your findings! (y)
 
MrTeno2U said:
Sram shifter 8 speed $18
Zee FR derailleur $45
Sunrace CSM680 11-40T $22
Click to expand...
Sorry to burst your bubble but Sram 8 speed has a different pull ratio to 10 speed Shimano (Zee etc).
Ie . it won't index properly - Which is pretty much the last thing you want on an Emtb

why on earth did you not just buy a 10 speed shifter, cassette and chain? They're almost as cheap. and come in many many ratios and ranges (road and mtb are the same spacing so making a custom cassette with all the ratios you actually want is piss easy too)
 
Gary said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but Sram 8 speed has a different pull ratio to 10 speed Shimano (Zee etc).
Ie . it won't index properly - Which is pretty much the last thing you want on an Emtb

why on earth did you not just buy a 10 speed shifter, cassette and chain? They're almost as cheap. and come in many many ratios and ranges (road and mtb are the same spacing so making a custom cassette with all the ratios you actually want is piss easy too)
Click to expand...

It's a ten speed now and works good. No problems there.

I'd like to try an 8 speed with a clutched derailleur and found these (below) as well as some videos. Some are using a spacer, or two small washers, under the cable attachment point to alter the pull ratio, and some are not.

I'd like to try the zee derailleur, because from most reviews, it's a tough little bugger

If it dont work, I'll have my zee dr, and use it in a traditional set up (11-36 ten speed) and some 8 speed stuff to play around with later.

Either way. I'll report back with my results. I'm certainly not afraid to fail.


Can I but a ten speed zee derailer on an 8 speed cassette - Pinkbike Forum

8 speeds on zee Video - Pinkbike

Sometimes, Ten is Just One Too Many by biggerted - Pinkbike
 
^ Had to check what a Zee derailleur is, never heard of it. :unsure:
Apparently the Zee derailleur is compatible with 11-42T 10 speed cassettes??!

I might look into that. I still can't believe it's a SHORT CAGE. It should keep things higher and further away from the ground.

My current long cage SLX derailleur dangles just inches off the ground on certain speeds...
 
No. Zee is rated to work with 11-28 in standard form or 11-36 in FR guise.
the only difference is the size of the mounting plate.
the FR version CAN SOMETIMES work with a 42t sprocket. it depends on the bike frame/hanger/suspension design.

@MrTeno2U. Yes the spacer on the mech pinchbolt mod does work on 10 speed Shimano clutch mechs. I've done it myself many years back on a couple of bikes. YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GET THIS SPACER SIZE WRONG ON AN EMTB.
I had a mate make me a custom spacer. I still have that spacer somewhere in a spares box. I forget the exact dimensions.

Leave it as 10 speed. the cheap components you've bought are cheap for a reason, They're all poor quality in comparison to a shimano 10 speed cassette, shimano 10 speed (Zee/Deore) shifter and a cheap SRAM 10 speed chain.
(I simply favour sram over shimano for my chains, plus 8-10 speed shimano chains do not come with a quick link)
 
...
GrandPaBrogan said:
^ Had to check what a Zee derailleur is, never heard of it. :unsure:
Apparently the Zee derailleur is compatible with 11-42T 10 speed cassettes??!

I might look into that. I still can't believe it's a SHORT CAGE. It should keep things higher and further away from the ground.

My current long cage SLX derailleur dangles just inches off the ground on certain speeds...
Click to expand...
What system are you using? 10,11,12, and what's your largest cog?

You might be able to bolt a medium cage to it. The shimano cages are cheap to buy and readily available. The 2 bikes I have that came OEM as 11 speeds, both have the medium cages and survive my style of "trail" riding way better than the 12 speeders did.


Recently I swapped the long for a medium. The process is not completely stupid proof but I managed. The video helped.

20191129_111456.jpg
 
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Gary said:
No. Zee is rated to work with 11-28 in standard form or 11-36 in FR guise.
the only difference is the size of the mounting plate.
the FR version CAN SOMETIMES work with a 42t sprocket. it depends on the bike frame/hanger/suspension design.

@MrTeno2U. Yes the spacer on the mech pinchbolt mod does work on 10 speed Shimano clutch mechs. I've done it myself many years back on a couple of bikes. YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GET THIS SPACER SIZE WRONG ON AN EMTB.
I had a mate make me a custom spacer. I still have that spacer somewhere in a spares box. I forget the exact dimensions.

Leave it as 10 speed. the cheap components you've bought are cheap for a reason, They're all poor quality in comparison to a shimano 10 speed cassette, shimano 10 speed (Zee/Deore) shifter and a cheap SRAM 10 speed chain.
(I simply favour sram over shimano for my chains, plus 8-10 speed shimano chains do not come with a quick link)
Click to expand...

Granted the cassette is not premium, but the rest of my kit for this trial is good Shimano and sram stuff?

If it works to my liking, I may invest in a more better cassette... say one that cost $30 lol.

In all seriousness, I've been determined to try an 8 speed and this is my start. If this dont work... well by then maybe the rohloff will be approved and I'll loose all interest in derailleurs forever. Hope springs eternally.
 
a shimano 8 speed cassette costs £15 mate.
and unless you've found a pristine shifter from 2004 your sram 8 speed shifter is pretty shit too.

Why so obsessed with 8 speed?

more gears .particularly closer ratios at the small (11,12,13,14,15,16t) end of the cassette improves wear massively.
 
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Gary said:
a shimano 8 speed cassette costs £15 mate.
and unless you've found a pristine shifter from 2004 your sram 8 speed shifter is pretty shit too.

Why so obsessed with 8 speed?

more gears .particularly closer ratios at the small (11,12,13,14,15,16t) end of the cassette improves wear massively.
Click to expand...
I dont wear out cassettes... I break and bend derailleurs and chains.

For me, 8 speeds is about derailleurs that work even when things aren't pristine..like right after it eats a stick. But I dont know if it will be better or not. It's an experiment.

I'm certain the Zee FR 10 speed (11 - 36) is a good setup, and one Iwill likely be running, with at least one of the bikes I maintain. This Zee 10 speed seems like the ideal system for me, as the ratio is sufficient using all the boost, and the short cage keeps things up tight to the Chain stay.


Back to my shit parts though..

I dont fully understand the sram naming convention for shifters. I bought the only NIB (new in box) sram 8 speed rear derailleur shifter I could find.

It's an x.4. These may very well be junk, but it's the only unit sram is offering on the website when filtering for a 1:1 pull ratio 8 speed shifter.

Either way, I'm not worried about it. I'm playing around enjoying the tinkering. My 12 speed experience was painful.... the 10 speed is nice... the 8 speed?
 
Perfect setup on my ebike is Saint 10 speed shifter with deore rear derailleur, softer shift than my XX1 eagle on clockwork bike although that wasn’t probably setup & is now riding them back to back on Monday
 
Hi I've been reading with interest as I use 10sp deore on my xc bike and 10sp slx giant e trance they just work but as an alternative box components make 3or4 drive trains very cheaply in 9 sp 11-50 fitting a shimano freehub full group is about £190 that's cassette shifter mech and chain I'm tempted but tbh I run 36 chainring and standard 11-36 cassette and I haven't found anything I can't get up yet? Just a thought ?
 
Stretch40 said:
Hi I've been reading with interest as I use 10sp deore on my xc bike and 10sp slx giant e trance they just work but as an alternative box components make 3or4 drive trains very cheaply in 9 sp 11-50 fitting a shimano freehub full group is about £190 that's cassette shifter mech and chain I'm tempted but tbh I run 36 chainring and standard 11-36 cassette and I haven't found anything I can't get up yet? Just a thought ?
Click to expand...
Awesome thanks! I will have a look at them.

So far the 10 speed has been very good, with no broken derailleurs and only one snapped chain (my fault).
 
Just checked out the Box website and while short on some details concerning their new 8 speed drivetrain, they have killer sales going on. 30% off.

Cassette, derailleur and shifter out the door for $108 using promo.

Box Four 8S Wide Groupset


Counting the teeth on the large cog, looks like it might be a 42T. I like that, and the derailleur looks short... not zee short... but shortish. Lol
 
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Oh OK bikeradar had there new 9speed ebike stuff they said they went 9 speed with equal jumps and stronger chain as they thought like I do u don't need anywhere near 12speed for ebike I'm changing my chainring to 34 as I never ever use the 11-13 sprocket as don't pedal above 15.5mph limit and it will make 34-36 even better I've just bought a deore chain and cassette from bike de for £35 bargain ? don't see why u need ebike chain when deore is solid pin aswell?
 
Oh jyst a note I've just gone on box site it's box 2 e 9s they do 3 levels and they sell it all separately cheap as chips?
 
Stretch40 said:
Oh OK bikeradar had there new 9speed ebike stuff they said they went 9 speed with equal jumps and stronger chain as they thought like I do u don't need anywhere near 12speed for ebike I'm changing my chainring to 34 as I never ever use the 11-13 sprocket as don't pedal above 15.5mph limit and it will make 34-36 even better I've just bought a deore chain and cassette from bike de for £35 bargain ? don't see why u need ebike chain when deore is solid pin aswell?
Click to expand...

I switched to a 34T gear ring as well for pretty much the same reasons. Even with the US 20MPH assist limit, I never need the 11T to get to max assisted speed, and I'm not interested in riding without assist.

The only reason, I buy the ebike chain is the extra links. The Trance, at my current gearing needs at least 118-120 links. I cant find regular chains that are 118-120 links long? Once I make the switch to 36T large cog, a regular cheap chain will be enough?
 
Stretch40 said:
Oh jyst a note I've just gone on box site it's box 2 e 9s they do 3 levels and they sell it all separately cheap as chips?
Click to expand...


Yes. I looked at that system, but i dont like the huge 50T cog, and the long cage derailleur needed to span it.

My experience has shown me that the life-span of a derailleur -on my bike- is inversely proportional to its cage length.

The 8 speed system looks more to my liking with the smallish large cog (42T) and the shortish cage derailleur.

Thanks for the links! I'm glad to see choices other than ShimSram, and this company, in particular, seems to making the stuff I've been trying to peice together from bits and pieces of ShimSram all along. Lol. That 8 speed is exactly what I was trying to create in my post above, and only cost $8 more (black19 promo applied) than my yet unproven shimsram hodgepodge.
 
If someone could shed some light, regarding 12 speed front chainring compatibility, will appreciate it?
I would like to fit Race Face or Hope chainring on full Shimano 12 speed setup.
NARROW WIDE
Now I see, that this model is not compatible with Shimano 12 Speed
Spec. below:
Race Face Narrow Wide Chainring - 4 Bolt - 104mm - black
They have new model out, that is compatible only with the Shimano 12 speed Chain.
Narrow Wide – SHI 12 Speed
The first Chainring is normally compatible with 12 speed as they say, so the problem is Shimano Chain and If I use 12 speed KMC or SRAM chain, that would be OK?
I tried to fit the Shimano 12 speed Chain on normal Race Face Narrow Wide and it fits, but I guess that the chain is just little to narrow so that made a new specific Chainring?
Don't know about Hope, if Shimano 12 speed Chain will be ok?
:unsure:
 
I would like to help, but didnt keep the 12 speed on long enough to have this particular conundrum. Perhaps posting the question again in the general forum would get some information?
 
Thomas said:
If someone could shed some light, regarding 12 speed front chainring compatibility, will appreciate it?
I would like to fit Race Face or Hope chainring on full Shimano 12 speed setup.
NARROW WIDE
Now I see, that this model is not compatible with Shimano 12 Speed
Spec. below:
Race Face Narrow Wide Chainring - 4 Bolt - 104mm - black
They have new model out, that is compatible only with the Shimano 12 speed Chain.
Narrow Wide – SHI 12 Speed
The first Chainring is normally compatible with 12 speed as they say, so the problem is Shimano Chain and If I use 12 speed KMC or SRAM chain, that would be OK?
I tried to fit the Shimano 12 speed Chain on normal Race Face Narrow Wide and it fits, but I guess that the chain is just little to narrow so that made a new specific Chainring?
Don't know about Hope, if Shimano 12 speed Chain will be ok?
:unsure:
Click to expand...

Hi. I'm using a Shimano XT12 speed chain on a Raceface narrow-wide 104 front ring. The slightly narrower 12sp chain quick-link initially caught-up on the wide tooth each time it released; just a click noise as it pinged off. After a couple of hundred k's it's quiet now. That chain has lasted nearly 800km on my Altitude Powerplay so far and not at the 0.5 wear marker yet.
 
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