Issues with upper seat tube pivot repeatedly loosening.

[DubSea]

Anyone having issues with the pivot axle on the seat tube repeatedly pulling over to the side you use the preload tool with? Ive reset the axle to the non-drive side multiple times now and torqued pinch bolts to spec but it keeps getting pulled to the drive side which causes that pivot to have notable side to side play and the bearings no longer preloaded.

 

[Richridesmtb]

Are you using retaining compound? I did seem to have play in mine last time I cleaned them but haven't tried the compound yet.

 

[neilo]

Same as Rich, I noticed some slight play in the upper pivot which prompted me to disassemble and clean it on the weekend. I've had the bike 4 months and ride 2-3 times per week. Play is gone after reassembly but I haven't ridden it yet. I did use the retaining compound.

The issue I did have though is that I couldn't budge the pivot axle. Any hints with this? I tried tapping it repeatedly with a rubber mallet as advised in the procedure but no joy. It feels like hitting it too hard is just going to destroy the bearings themselves or damage the frame. I guess the preload tool must have moved the axle at least a little bit (since the play went away) so it's not completely seized?

 

[Rod B.]

DubSea, once the upper axle/linkage arm pre-load has been set, there should be no pulling apart and widening of the linkage arms. You're an animal. If it's occurring, the linkage arms are likely not gripping the splined ends of the axle correctly. I would removed the arms and inspect the axle and linkage arms to be sure there is no excessive wear on the splines or the linkage arm interface. If things like excessive, you can order parts on Orbea's website. It takes about two weeks to get parts to California from Spain. If everything looks good, then I would do as Rich suggests and use a retaining compound. The Orbea Rise "Blue Paper", page 50, Item # 2, states to use a "Cylindrical Components Retainer" on the "Left" linkage axle side. It doesn't specify which type of retaining compound. The Orbea Rallon has a similar pivot linkage design. The person who wrote the Orbea Rallon Blue Paper had more coffee that morning and was more specific with the details. The Rallon Blue Paper, specifies using "Loctite 638" as a retaining compound on the "Non-Threaded" splined axle/linkage arm interface.

Rise Blue Paper
View attachment 87781
Rallon Blue Paper

View attachment 87780

 

[Rod B.]

Neilo, how's going in the land down under?

The upper pivot axle has a tight machined tolerance fit when in place between the two upper pivot bearings. I've found that the thin layer of grease placed between the axle and bearing races dries out with time. If the bike is frequently washed or exposed to a lot of water, the axle grease will dry out even quicker.

You'll especially know when the axle grease has dried, because your Rise will develop an irritating creak which sounds exactly like a seat post or saddle rail clamps creaking as you ride. The creaking noise you are actually hearing is the aluminum axle shifting back and forth on the steel pivot bearings races. The axle needs to be removed from the bearings and the inner bearing races which the axle rides upon need to be re-greased. Once the axle has been re-greased, setting the axle pre-load using the purple pre-load tool is easy because the axle's machined shoulders will move easily on the bearing races.

The lack of axle grease makes driving the aluminum axle out, or shifting the axle over to set pre-load, very difficult. As I mentioned in my original tech article, I always use a rubber mallet to drive the axle out. I'm fearful of using anything harder because the last thing you want to do is mushroom or mess up the end of the aluminum axle by hitting it with a hammer or hard wood block.

If the axle is extremely tight from lack of grease and can't be moved without a serious pounding, then I would buy a can of "PB Blaster" or similar penetrating oil. PB Blaster is formulated to penetrate frozen or rusted items, so they can be re-loosened, i.e. nuts and bolts. I love this stuff, it works much better than something like WD-40. Pre-soak both sides of the axle and bearings with a shot of PB Blaster and let it work for about 20 minutes. Then start giving the axle a tap with the rubber mallet. The axle should free up and start to move. When it does, give it another shot of PB Blaster and continue tapping to remove the axle.

Good Riding....Cheers.

 

[neilo]

Neilo, how's going in the land down under?

If the axle is extremely tight from lack of grease and can't be moved without a serious pounding, then I would buy a can of "PB Blaster" or similar penetrating oil. PB Blaster is formulated to penetrate frozen or rusted items, so they can be re-loosened, i.e. nuts and bolts. I love this stuff, it works much better than something like WD-40. Pre-soak both sides of the axle and bearings with a shot of PB Blaster and let it work for about 20 minutes. Then start giving the axle a tap with the rubber mallet. The axle should free up and start to move. When it does, give it another shot of PB Blaster and continue tapping to remove the axle.

Good Riding....Cheers.

>>
I said, "Hey, do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich
<<


Thanks Rod, I will try this. Looks like I can get PB Blaster on ebay. Would you reckon the bearings will be toast if they soak up this stuff? Not sure I'm ready to tackle getting those bearings out.

Cheers.

 

[Rod B.]

>>
I said, "Hey, do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich
<<


Thanks Rod, I will try this. Looks like I can get PB Blaster on ebay. Would you reckon the bearings will be toast if they soak up this stuff? Not sure I'm ready to tackle getting those bearings out.

Cheers.

Brother, I love that song...Reminds me of my surfing trips down to Baja Mexico. I tried Vegemite once, just once....
Most any penetrating oil will work, i.e. Liquid Wrench, Kroil, etc. Make a run down to the local auto parts store and see what's on the shelf. There should not be any issue with your bearings, the penetrating oil has a consistency like WD-40. I would be careful spraying the stuff on the rubber dust seals. You don't want to leave the seals submerged in penetrating oil for a long period of time, it might cause the seals to swell. To be safe, spray both sides of the axles at the bearings. Wait about 15 seconds and then wipe off the overspray from the bearings. The penetrating oil will have already started to work in between the axle and the bearings. You could also spray some of the penetrating oil into a cup. Use a small brush to dab the oil onto the axle where it makes contact with the bearings.

I'm recommending the penetrating oil for a reason. Have you noticed that the aluminum axle on the Rise has a hardened black anodized finish and the steel bearings also have a black oxide finish? There's a reason for this, it's Orbea's attempt to limit galvanic corrosion from occurring. It happens all the time with bike and boat parts which are made with differing types of metals, or the design allows two differing types of metals to contact each other.

I got this from the internet, it explains galvanic corrosion and why bike parts and pivot bearings like to glue themselves together.

"When two different metals are in contact and exposed to a common electrolyte, i.e. water, one of the metals experiences accelerated corrosion while the other is protected. This type of accelerated corrosion between dissimilar metals is referred to as galvanic corrosion.

All metals have different electrical potentials that can be quantified in the presence of a conductive medium such as moisture or saltwater. The Galvanic Series of Metals chart lists metals and alloys in decreasing order of electrical activity. Metals and alloys nearer the top of the series have a greater negative electrical potential than the more noble or stable metals lower in the chart. When two metals of different electrical potentials are combined under the right conditions, a galvanic cell is formed and one metal will begin pulling electrons from the other metal.

The galvanic cell is similar to a battery, consisting of two dissimilar metals immersed in an electrolyte solution. An electrochemical reaction occurs involving a transfer of electrons from one metal to the other (electric current) when the two metals are connected by an external, conductive path. This results in accelerated corrosion of the metal losing electrons while the metal receiving electrons is preserved."

In a nutshell...When you have two differing metals such as aluminum and steel making contact and they get repeatedly exposed to water, they will eventually weld themselves together and make it nearly impossible to remove the part. The black anodizing on the axle helps at limiting galvanic corrosion with the steel bearings. However, a little bit of rubbing back and forth between the axle and bearings, and a lack of grease as an inhibitor, then things tend to get stuck. The penetrating oil helps by working in between the axle and bearings and will help free the parts up.

The moral of the story...Keep those suckers greased....I've exhausted myself, I'm going on a walk-about

Cheers

 

[DubSea]

Thanks Fella's! Sleeve retainer or carbon paste was my next step, but since I have to pull the linkage, I have not gotten to it yet.

Wanted to make sure this was not a known issue that requires replacement parts! It's a brand new bike with less than 200 miles so hopefully if it continues to be an issue, orbea will cover it under warranty.

 

[Richridesmtb]

I'm probably going to ask for a warranty axle and maybe linkages. Mine has done bugger all riding to need pulling down twice and the wear in the splines appears excessive.

 

[DubSea]

Ill probably try sleeve retainer first. Ive been trying to communicate with Orbea about this issue and the Hydro battery charging issue and it is extremely frustrating. No replies, unhelpful replies and just insist I waste my time taking it to the shop I bought it from. It seems they dont have any CS reps with technical knowledge as they insist I take the bike to the shop rather than answer a technical question or try to assist a consumer directly.

 

[Rod B.]

The Loctite 638 high strength retainer compound is effective. It's what I use when somebody comes to me with an Amish bike and the bottom bracket bearing cups are creaking in the bottom bracket shell. The compound costs about $18 on Amazon and will take up any slack in the splined fitment. I would absolutely give it a try first before pursuing a frustrating warranty process.

 

[Richridesmtb]

I'll use the retaining compound next time.

Rod, have you pulled your linkages off with retaining compound? They can be pretty tough to budge just with grease!

 

[Rod B.]

I'll use the retaining compound next time.

Rod, have you pulled your linkages off with retaining compound? They can be pretty tough to budge just with grease!

Rich, I'm still using grease alone on my splines. The arms come off by hand and they have yet to start working apart while riding. When they do reach that point, I'll switch to the retaining compound.

This morning I'm going through my bike and will be greasing everything up again. On my last ride I could hear the upper pivot axle start to creak again. I knew I shouldn't have washed my bike.

 

[Slo-zone]

I'll use the retaining compound next time.

Rod, have you pulled your linkages off with retaining compound? They can be pretty tough to budge just with grease!

So I have a Rise H10 with 200 miles on the odometer. The last couple of rides it has had a irritating snap crackle pop when pedaling that got progressively worse. It was coming from the rocker arms/ splined shaft interface. I pulled everything apart, cleaned and greased the bearings and installed the rockers with Loctite. I did notice that the splined shaft was already showing signs of wear and the splined bore of one of the rocker arms was over sprayed with the black powder coat. I also had the same customer service interaction as stated above, take it to your LBS. The upper pivot is certainly going to be maintenance intensive. Maybe Orbea will improve it and supply updated parts if there are enough complaints. FYI use a soldering iron to heat the splined shaft to soften the Loctite for removal, works great.

 

[cosas_genericas]

Ill probably try sleeve retainer first. Ive been trying to communicate with Orbea about this issue and the Hydro battery charging issue and it is extremely frustrating. No replies, unhelpful replies and just insist I waste my time taking it to the shop I bought it from. It seems they dont have any CS reps with technical knowledge as they insist I take the bike to the shop rather than answer a technical question or try to assist a consumer directly.

This has been my experience so far. The bike has been great but the brand support in the US is not there. Makes me regret not getting a specialized.

 

[DubSea]

This has been my experience so far. The bike has been great but the brand support in the US is not there. Makes me regret not getting a specialized.

The loctite 680 that @Rod B. is recommending is good stuff. ive used it on other applications similar to this issue. Ill give it a go and hopefully it does the trick.

The Orbea CS has been shockingly bad. It's one thing to have bad service, but another to give you the run-around and waste your customers and your dealers time on an issue you know there is no solution for is almost worse than no service at all. TBH, Im actually concerned about what happens when/if I have a real warranty claim that needs addressing. Ive seen some chatter about other customers claiming to have legit warranty issues that have been denied.....but I always take that with a grain of salt on the interwebs. That said, for the number of issues im having on a 2 month old bike, the total lack of CS, the micro size of the pivot bearings and the amount of flex in this rear end, im having some regrets about buying the Orbea and considering selling before bigger probs arise.

 

[cosas_genericas]

The loctite 680 that @Rod B. is recommending is good stuff. ive used it on other applications similar to this issue. Ill give it a go and hopefully it does the trick.

The Orbea CS has been shockingly bad. It's one thing to have bad service, but another to give you the run-around and waste your customers and your dealers time on an issue you know there is no solution for is almost worse than no service at all. TBH, Im actually concerned about what happens when/if I have a real warranty claim that needs addressing. Ive seen some chatter about other customers claiming to have legit warranty issues that have been denied.....but I always take that with a grain of salt on the interwebs. That said, for the number of issues im having on a 2 month old bike, the total lack of CS, the micro size of the pivot bearings and the amount of flex in this rear end, im having some regrets about buying the Orbea and considering selling before bigger probs arise.

I think for this vendor model you would need to have a strong relationship with a local bike shop that you purchased the bike new from to minimize your headache. I live in Los Angeles and there is no Orbea dealer that has mountain bikes as part of their line up and that has a proper service department. There are many Shimano EP8 dealers since it is the most ubiquitous system, so at least you'd be able to get support easily with Shimano specific issues. I've been debating selling mine as well to avoid the headache. Orbea has been in the US for a very long time and they still have poor CS operations. I documented my poor experience with Orbea and Jenson USA here: Warning: Do not buy your bike from JensonUSA - EMTB Forums

 

[BiGJZ74]

Well, the last 4 rides I've had to tighten the Main Pivot axle/after my ride. Just ordered the retaining cmpound to see if that helps. 4000Miles on my Rallon and it wasn;t half as flexy and never came loose once. Still love the bike, just need it fixed. How much loctite retaining compound do I use?

 

[Rod B.]

Well, the last 4 rides I've had to tighten the Main Pivot axle/after my ride. Just ordered the retaining cmpound to see if that helps. 4000Miles on my Rallon and it wasn;t half as flexy and never came loose once. Still love the bike, just need it fixed. How much loctite retaining compound do I use?

Big J, make sure the linkage arm pinch bolts have a liberal coating of blue loctite. Several people have reported their linkage arm pinch bolts only had a very slight amount of blue loctite.

Regarding the cylindrical retaining compound. I would put a small bead around the axle spline and another small bead inside the linkage arm splined receptacle. Insert them together and wipe off the excess. You want the retaining compound to fill any voids between the components. The retaining compound will harden and prevent movement which tends to occur when two components don’t mate perfectly.

As a side note, normally I use grease on my splines when I service the upper linkage. I wasn’t using a retaining compound. However, my bike now has about 2,100 miles on it. I’ve noticed there is a bit more wear/pitting on the axle splines and linkage arm splines where they mate together. My bike has started to get a bit more lateral play caused by the linkage arms shifting on the axle spline due to the wear. I recently used the retaining compound on my last axle service. The stuff works, I’ve haven’t experienced anymore lateral play since using it. I also insure my torque settings on the hardware are accurate.

 

[BiGJZ74]

Big J, make sure the linkage arm pinch bolts have a liberal coating of blue loctite. Several people have reported their linkage arm pinch bolts only had a very slight amount of blue loctite.

Regarding the cylindrical retaining compound. I would put a small bead around the axle spline and another small bead inside the linkage arm splined receptacle. Insert them together and wipe off the excess. You want the retaining compound to fill any voids between the components. The retaining compound will harden and prevent movement which tends to occur when two components don’t mate perfectly.

As a side note, normally I use grease on my splines when I service the upper linkage. I wasn’t using a retaining compound. However, my bike now has about 2,100 miles on it. I’ve noticed there is a bit more wear/pitting on the axle splines and linkage arm splines where they mate together. My bike has started to get a bit more lateral play caused by the linkage arms shifting on the axle spline due to the wear. I recently used the retaining compound on my last axle service. The stuff works, I’ve haven’t experienced anymore lateral play since using it. I also insure my torque settings on the hardware are accurate.

Thanks for the info, I ordered the 638 today and will redo the blue on the pinch bolts when I add the retaining compound before my next ride.

 

[BiGJZ74]

I'll use the retaining compound next time.

Rod, have you pulled your linkages off with retaining compound? They can be pretty tough to budge just with grease!

I was amazed at how loose the fit is with the Rise linkage arms. When I swapped my 2018 Rallon to the 2020 Rally-on Linkage, the Arms took an hour to pull apart. The Rallon Linkage had a super tight fit and didn't slip a bit in 5000 miles. My Rise slipped 4 times in 4 rides when torqued properly etc. I think that with the loose fit of the splines and flex of the rear end, the twisting in corners loosens the main pivot. I installed the Loctite 638 yesterday.....hope it helps.

 

[Rod B.]

I was amazed at how loose the fit is with the Rise linkage arms. When I swapped my 2018 Rallon to the 2020 Rally-on Linkage, the Arms took an hour to pull apart. The Rallon Linkage had a super tight fit and didn't slip a bit in 5000 miles. My Rise slipped 4 times in 4 rides when torqued properly etc. I think that with the loose fit of the splines and flex of the rear end, the twisting in corners loosens the main pivot. I installed the Loctite 638 yesterday.....hope it helps.

I used the 638 on my axle about a month ago. At the time I decided to order a new upper axle because it had some significant wear on the splines. It took four weeks to get my new axle from Orbea. I can tell you from first hand experience the 638 works. I had to break out the soft rubber mallet and give the arms a few good whacks just to get them to loosen up off of the old axle.

 

[Kevlasultanpus]

The loctite 680 that @Rod B. is recommending is good stuff. ive used it on other applications similar to this issue. Ill give it a go and hopefully it does the trick.

The Orbea CS has been shockingly bad. It's one thing to have bad service, but another to give you the run-around and waste your customers and your dealers time on an issue you know there is no solution for is almost worse than no service at all. TBH, Im actually concerned about what happens when/if I have a real warranty claim that needs addressing. Ive seen some chatter about other customers claiming to have legit warranty issues that have been denied.....but I always take that with a grain of salt on the interwebs. That said, for the number of issues im having on a 2 month old bike, the total lack of CS, the micro size of the pivot bearings and the amount of flex in this rear end, im having some regrets about buying the Orbea and considering selling before bigger probs arise.

did you sell??? My rear end feels like its about to fall off...only about 15 rides in and 300Km on the clock...

had some play in most bolts but cant get to one that the speed sensor / rear break line is in the way of...any idea hoiw to get to that???

Thinking ill give local orbea dealer one more try...

 

[cookie70]

Thinking ill give local orbea dealer one more try...

definitely, sounds like poor setup on their part if delivering a bike with many loose bolts!

As for the upper axle, I suggest reading the forum thread on doing the loctite service, especially as your is new. Like most others I have same issue with it coming loose, the loctite works for 3-4 months and it will loosen again. I've contacted orbea but no reply yet. I'm hoping the revised axle on the new model will fit our older bikes!