Is the Power War over ? Is 1500 peak watts, 150Nm, the new benchmark ?

[Fangs2k]

It’s like some people think MTBs couldn’t be ridden up technical terrain before EMTBs came along…

Of course they could be, and still can be, going up technical terrain on a mountain bike isn’t a new sport, even if you’d never tried it before Avinox came along.

It’s no harder or easier than it ever was, just the ‘same but different’ it is more accessible on an e-bike though for sure.

 

[skizzian]

It’s like some people think MTBs couldn’t be ridden up technical terrain before EMTBs came along…

Of course they could be, and still can be, going up technical terrain on a mountain bike isn’t a new sport, even if you’d never tried it before Avinox came along.

It’s no harder or easier than it ever was, just the ‘same but different’ it is more accessible on an e-bike though for sure.

I dunno a constant 800% assist is going to get you up gradients that would not have been humanly possible on a pedal bike (without special gearing)
that said, should you stall and fall - the consequences could be dire

 

[Suns_PSD]

I try sketchier things on the e-bike, resulting in higher consequence failures.

 

[Fangs2k]

I dunno a constant 800% assist is going to get you up gradients that would not have been humanly possible on a pedal bike (without special gearing)
that said, should you stall and fall - the consequences could be dire

That’s kind of why I said the same but different. I used to ride up Jacob’s Ladder (a bridle way) in the UK Peak District on my manual MTBs.

I say ride, because only god like riders could actually do it without a foot dab. For some of the steepest and rockiest sections I used to get off and carry the bike, a full suspension job so not the lightest either.

Certainly a ‘full workout’ and not ‘just legs’, and no less than riding up the same obstacle on an e-bike.

I guess just because something can be ridden up on a more powerful e-bike doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do so and such an edge case shouldn’t be used as justifying whatever power you think you need anyway.

In that sense, no, the power war isn’t over, some people will always want to justify more for all sorts of reasons, the same as some people will argue the other way.

 

[skizzian]

That’s kind of why I said the same but different. I used to ride up Jacob’s Ladder (a bridle way) in the UK Peak District on my manual MTBs.

I say ride, because only god like riders could actually do it without a foot dab. For some of the steepest and rockiest sections I used to get off and carry the bike, a full suspension job so not the lightest either.

Certainly a ‘full workout’ and not ‘just legs’, and no less than riding up the same obstacle on an e-bike.

I guess just because something can be ridden up on a more powerful e-bike doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do so and such an edge case shouldn’t be used as justifying whatever power you think you need anyway.

In that sense, no, the power war isn’t over, some people will always want to justify more for all sorts of reasons, the same as some people will argue the other way.

yup - and people can now attempt those get off and hike a bike sections because they have purchased God like torque
and that's when they find out those bones and ligaments are still mortal

 

[F4Flyer]

I guess we will see if DJI is afraid of a backlash from authorities or not but for those using them only and at default modes, I'd be very eager to see these guy ride a regular mountain bike uphill after a while.

 

[Fangs2k]

I guess we will see if DJI is afraid of a backlash from authorities or not but for those using them only and at default modes, I'd be very eager to see these guy ride a regular mountain bike uphill after a while.

After my first ride out on the CX5 yesterday I realised how people wear out 2 or 3 sprockets on the cassette, there’s so much torque available that you can just leave it in a gear and it ploughs on. I used fewer gears than on any other lower powered e-bike I ride.

One of my first impressions was it could turn me into a very lazy rider indeed, at least on the regular rides near my house, but totally get that would depend on the terrain you’re riding (I don’t need it for my local loops) and also on me to lower settings and keep reminding myself it’s a bicycle.

 

[Mikerb]

Did you watch Neil's video ? He was knackered when he turned power right up. I think this is the point many don't realise. Riding an EMTB in Technical Terrain in full boost is much harder work than going at 50Nm.

When the terrain comes at you that quickly. It's exhausting. You really have to muscle the bike around and react much quicker. I work so much harder on my M2S Enduro, than my M1 trail bike. It's a whole body workout, not just your legs. If all you are working in MTB is your legs. You are not getting the whole experience.

AS a Whyte fan I was disappointed by the video. It was all about doing a time trial rather than a review of the bike. The climbs were easy and the downhill sections steep enough to need no pedalling so the motor was only helping himbdo the recovery climbs a bit faster..
I had the Whyte E180x RSX 5/6 years ago and I know how plush and forgiving long travel can be....and it saved my skin a fee times when learning how to tackle jumps and drops. It was useless onbsteep technical climbs hoeever. I sold it and got the Whyte E160 RSX which was as good downhill as long as my technique was good, and far better uphill.
I wanted to know if the Karve EVO could handle technical climbs and descents that actually warranted long travel. What differentiates Whytes from the crowd is low centre of gravity which makes their bikes more stable when leant over and more manouvrable in tight sections......so how did this bike perform?

 

[F4Flyer]

Yeah, I exclusive rode my eMTB last year for 8-10 weeks. I was using the lowest mode. I get back on the regular MTB for a group ride and about had six heart attacks on a 2,000 ft climb trying to keep up with the guys I usually led. It was quite embarrassing, to say the least.

 

[Suns_PSD]

After my first ride out on the CX5 yesterday I realised how people wear out 2 or 3 sprockets on the cassette, there’s so much torque available that you can just leave it in a gear and it ploughs on. I used fewer gears than on any other lower powered e-bike I ride.

One of my first impressions was it could turn me into a very lazy rider indeed, at least on the regular rides near my house, but totally get that would depend on the terrain you’re riding (I don’t need it for my local loops) and also on me to lower settings and keep reminding myself it’s a bicycle.

They are so stupid powerful, even the comparatively low power Bosch. They suck battery juice and eat bike parts too.

I'm sure if you are on a wide-open dirt road or maybe a slow rolling open forest floor, the power probably starts to feel mundane, but for any type of single track, 750w is so much power.

 

[Astro66]

AS a Whyte fan I was disappointed by the video. It was all about doing a time trial rather than a review of the bike.

I don't know. I understood the point he was making. He was saying that you can actually get more vertical metres completed with an M2S powered Enduro, than going to Whistler with a downhill bike.

As I have just bought an almost exactly the same spec'd M2S Enduro, as The Whyte Karve Evo. I fully understood and agreed with the sentiment.

We have a Bike Centre with decent downhill runs in our nations capital called Stromlo. It has a shuttle service, which costs about $100 a day. But the guys I ride with who use the shuttle service. I beat them back up the mountain by up to 20 mins on my M2S Enduro by just cycling up. So I could do far more runs with this motor system, than paying for the shuttle service.

Then when we stop for lunch. I simply put the bike on charge on my Ecoflow, adding about 50% back to the bike. That $100 a day quickly adds up. And being a National Park. The area is free to use and paid for by my annual National Parks Pass, which gets me into National Parks right across my state.

Anyway. I thought it was a good story, and shows just how capable an Enduro can be, when fitted with an M2S motor.

 

[Astro66]

They suck battery juice and eat bike parts too.

That has not been my experience. I have nearly 2000km on my Amflow, and it has eaten nothing, and I have done over 80km and 1600 metre rides. You need to actually ride one. I think you'll be surprised.

 

[Brawwp]

If Avinox came out with a way to just teleport this to every place I ride I’d take it lol.

Once we put the “E” at the beginning of mtb, I assumed we were all prioritizing dh and fun having. I guess not though.. if you’re all about being fitness king then why even e-bike? Don’t get me wrong, the Avinox has made uphills at least somewhat funner, but to me it’s still just a self shuttle without lift access. I want dh and the faster I get there the better.

 

[Astro66]

Don’t get me wrong, the Avinox has made uphills at least somewhat funner, but to me it’s still just a self shuttle without lift access. I want dh and the faster I get there the better.

Years of downhill and I'm looking for more than just riding downhill. I still love downhill days. But it's just that. I want downhill days. I want adventure days. I want technical climbing days. I want exploring days. I want training days. I want, just being out in nature, days.

And a 180/180 Enduro, with the adjustable power and range of the M2S, can do it all.

I still go back to. It's better to be over-biked than under-biked. Same with the motor. It's better to be over-motored, than under-motored.

That said. My Amflow PL Carbon Pro at under 20kgs. Is definitely the EMTB I use when learning new maneuvers. It's just easier to learn them.

 

[Brawwp]

It's better to be over-motored, than under-motored.

this right here 100%. Why complain about it, just tune it down. I almost guarantee it wouldn’t be any significant weight savings making the motor 85nm max. With Avinox you get the lightest full power motor offering, and also the strongest. If you don’t want the power just tune it down…

 

[Hob Nob]

I don't know. I understood the point he was making. He was saying that you can actually get more vertical metres completed with an M2S powered Enduro, than going to Whistler with a downhill bike.

As I have just bought an almost exactly the same spec'd M2S Enduro, as The Whyte Karve Evo. I fully understood and agreed with the sentiment.

We have a Bike Centre with decent downhill runs in our nations capital called Stromlo. It has a shuttle service, which costs about $100 a day. But the guys I ride with who use the shuttle service. I beat them back up the mountain by up to 20 mins on my M2S Enduro by just cycling up. So I could do far more runs with this motor system, than paying for the shuttle service.

Then when we stop for lunch. I simply put the bike on charge on my Ecoflow, adding about 50% back to the bike. That $100 a day quickly adds up. And being a National Park. The area is free to use and paid for by my annual National Parks Pass, which gets me into National Parks right across my state.

Anyway. I thought it was a good story, and shows just how capable an Enduro can be, when fitted with an M2S motor.

Complete strawman argument.

Yes, factoring in lift time, you ‘might’ be able to elevate yourself up to 1000m and complete it faster than lift assisted, but who on earth goes to Whistler and rides only 1000m of vert?

Last time we went, we did the Reverse Everest. We actually ended up doing just over 9000m of descending - love to see you try & do that on an ebike, considering in Turbo/Boost you are going to flatten it in 1000m. Hell, I’ve lapped out the Pleney & managed to do 7000m of vert by mid afternoon & not exactly busted myself in the process. Don’t get me wrong e-bikes are great, but trying to wedge that argument into a use case, really doesn’t stack up.

You keep banging the drum about Avinox, at a cult level, which is a bit weird, it’s just motor system that happens to be a little bit more powerful than others & your specific use case, which is great, but most people really don’t care about niche climbing challenges, they just want to get to the top of the hill, to ride back down again. We get it, great, you love your Avinox bikes.

Still maintain if I was in a world where one bike was all I could have, it would be a mid travel TQ60 bike with some adaptability. I don’t need a high power, long travel, one trick pony as my only bike. There are very few real world scenarios where it’s actually faster than my mid travel bike.

 

[Astro66]

You keep banging the drum about Avinox, at a cult level, which is a bit weird, it’s just motor system that happens to be a little bit more powerful than others

Well it's double the peak power and the motors I mention in the OP are Gobao and Avinox ...... But please don't let facts get in the way of your amazing story ........

I don’t need a high power, long travel, one trick pony as my only bike.

Yes. That's the entire point. You can turn a higher peak powered motor down. But you cannot turn a lower peak powered motor up. So manufacturers seeming to settle on a 1500 peak watts, 150Nm motor limit for the 250 watt rated motor, means you can cater to all riders. Not just you.

There are very few real world scenarios where it’s actually faster than my mid travel bike.

A slacker, longer travel EMTB, with a High Pivot chainstay, is going to be safer than a mid travel on a very technical downhill section, because it will be easier to ride it in that terrain. For me that is important.

But for younger highly skilled riders, they will also be able to go faster. Seth from Berm Peaks just did a video showing this, on a downhill bike.

I'm not interested in going faster. I'm only interested in being a better rider. I didn't come up with the trail rating system of Green Beginner. Blue Intermediate. And Black Advanced. But I'll let you guess who's bike is best adapted to Black Advanced.

 

[Fangs2k]

 

[Hob Nob]

Well it's double the peak power and the motors I mention in the OP are Gobao and Avinox ...... But please don't let facts get in the way of your amazing story ........

Not really a ‘story’ is it? Still waiting to see how an ebike can rival a days lift assisted riding, but all I keep hearing is Avinox has turned you into the EMTB Australian Uphill World Champion

Also - So far one manufacturer, with a motor released in the last 6 months & one possibly available, at some point in the future. Super cool, I can ride up to the top of the trailhead 23 seconds faster than my friends on Bosch/Brose/M1 motored bikes, then I can also go home sooner as I’ve rinsed my battery in the process…

Yes. That's the entire point. You can turn a higher peak powered motor down. But you cannot turn a lower peak powered motor up. So manufacturers seeming to settle on a 1500 peak watts, 150Nm motor limit for the 250 watt rated motor, means you can cater to all riders. Not just you.

As I have with mine, as it’s needlessly powerful, with EU limits. Not doubt a shocking reason, but I didn’t buy it because it was absurdly powerful, I bought it because of its form factor, customisablity & it just so happened to be on the bike I wanted.

A slacker, longer travel EMTB, with a High Pivot chainstay, is going to be safer than a mid travel on a very technical downhill section, because it will be easier to ride it in that terrain. For me that is important.

But for younger highly skilled riders, they will also be able to go faster. Seth from Berm Peaks just did a video showing this, on a downhill bike.

I'm not interested in going faster. I'm only interested in being a better rider. I didn't come up with the trail rating system of Green Beginner. Blue Intermediate. And Black Advanced. But I'll let you guess who's bike is best adapted to Black Advanced.

A whole lot of assumptions there, nearly all of which are incorrect. Removing actual DH race bikes from the equation, what’s fastest is what works best for people, the EWS/EDR being a prime example of that, there are countless cases of people winning on shorter travel bikes.

Layer in quirky suspension systems (high pivots) there are a lot of people who do not get on with them at all, because of the nature of how they ride, it can have all the suspension travel in the world, but if it doesn’t work for you, it isn’t going to be a fast bike.

 

[Brawwp]

Complete strawman argument.

Yes, factoring in lift time, you ‘might’ be able to elevate yourself up to 1000m and complete it faster than lift assisted, but who on earth goes to Whistler and rides only 1000m of vert?

It’s just proving these bikes are now basically self shuttle. As they always have been, but you save way more energy for the dh on these newer motors.

To each their own, if you don’t ever need it then don’t get it. For me my local is mostly car shuttle DH bikes. On my past Levo and Santa Cruz EMTBs I would rarely climb the trails back up because it’s pretty brutal so I’d take the road back to top to self shuttle. On the rare occasion i took trails up I was pretty spent at the top and had to take a break. Now with Avinox I take the climb trails up (unused dh trails) and can be to the top saving about 15-20 minutes and way less energy. Heart rate can be 110-130 and ready to go immediately. Car shuttle you’re waiting on everyone to load up and need to manage the leave behind cars.

Hey don’t get triggered I mentioned Avinox. I already came out as a fanboy. You can also call me a cultist if it makes you feel better. I’m just saying they 100% make a difference and some people really enjoy their assistance %. I want full energy for dh, I could care less about uphill.

 

[Astro66]

Not really a ‘story’ is it? Still waiting to see how an ebike can rival a days lift assisted riding,

Pretty simple. It's cheaper. It can be faster, depending on the centre in question. If you watched Neil's video. Those were the 2 points he was making.

The EMTB also works at non-lifted trail centres. More peak power means less time ascending. More time descending.

I can ride up to the top of the trailhead 23 seconds faster than my friends on Bosch/Brose/M1 motored bikes,

I don't think you realise how much of an advantage those 23 seconds can be, when riding with a group. You get 23 seconds longer to catch your breath. You have also paced yourself better during the climb, because you allowed the motor to do more of the work. Fatigue I found, is one of the biggest reasons I have had falls when doing descents.

When you get tired, you get lazy and you make more mistakes.

I'll say it again. I fall less on my !80/180, slack, high pivot, Enduro with the M2S. It's just easier and more forgiving in chunkier terrain. And I get less fatigued and more rested climbing back up.

Removing actual DH race bikes from the equation, what’s fastest is what works best for people,

I agree. But if you only have one bike. Then a bike that allows you to safely descend and ascend all terrain, is what is best, unless you limit the terrain you participate in. And limiting terrain, is what most riders do.

I want the most terrain available to me. But when I know I'm staying in less extreme terrain. I take my shorter travel EMTB. It climbs better. I can get it airbourne easier. And when in the air, I can move it around easier. But when I am unsure where I'll be riding. I always take the Enduro.

I'll say this again as well. I have never regretted being over-biked. Especially when you have the M2S to help compensate for the extra weight. But I have certainly regretted ending up in terrain where I was under-biked. Ending up in terrain where you are under-biked, gets you hurt.

 

[Ndanger]

My experience with self-shuttling on an eMTB is very much "power up, ride down."

For example, at Petzen MTB Park, a seriously big mountain, I typically ride from the base to the top for the first run, then from mid-mountain to the top for the second. Including the ride from camp, the day usually adds up to around 45 km and about 1,600 m of climbing.

I ride mostly in Eco, switching to Mid when I need a bit more assistance near the top. By the end of the day, I usually have around 12% battery remaining.

For the way I ride, using higher power modes throughout wouldn't be practical unless I carried a second battery or had the opportunity to recharge during the day.

 

[Fangs2k]

My experience with self-shuttling on an eMTB is very much "power up, ride down."

Well, to be fair that is probably the definition of ‘self shuttling’ but if you’re only able to do it once then it’s just ‘ going for a ride’?!

the day usually adds up to around 45 km and about 1,600 m of climbing.

1600m isn’t a huge day out in the mountains by any means, not to demean it at all.

I ride mostly in Eco, switching to Mid when I need a bit more assistance near the top. By the end of the day, I usually have around 12% battery remaining.

I think what the Top Guns in the thread are talking about is using more power than that, it’s why you need a 1300/1500w Avinox remember, no Eco mode used so you won’t be doing it much.

For the way I ride, using higher power modes throughout wouldn't be practical unless I carried a second battery or had the opportunity to recharge during the day.

Exactly.

People are just making a case for the power to support the way they use a bike. When I was riding out of Kaprun in Austria 20 years ago, a big day out in the mountains involved a suitable bike, a day lift pass with multiple Gondola’s up the mountains either side of a nice lunch.

I wouldn’t have been able to replicate that on any current e-bike, not without recharging or a battery or bike swap.

For messing about in the foothills or more modest winching up to the top of a local downhill run, sure, but then I still tend to want to support the local lifties (if there are any) who are trying to make a living helping you to have a good day out. The same as I always try to buy something from the bike shop and cafe at the UK trail centres I sometimes use.

But anyway, not much to do with power.

 

[Ndanger]

Fair point,I wouldn't call that a big mountain day either. If I'm planning a really big day, I'll use the gondola.

What I've found is that around 45 km and 1,600 m of climbing is about where the physics of my current 800 Wh battery become the limiting factor. For the riding I enjoy, I'd simply need more energy capacity to go much beyond that without recharging or carrying a second battery.

Having transitioned from alpine skiing to alpine touring years ago, I really appreciate the self-powered aspect. Self-shuttling on an eMTB feels a bit like the mountain biking equivalent of alpine touring to me.

 

[Paul F]

We’re definitely at (Or a little past) the point where the power is downright silly and stops feeling like an assisted bike and more like a motorcycle with pedals. I’m not one to advocate for limits/regulations, but I think we’re pretty much at a limit of what’s even practical at this point. I’d rather we just get comfortable with the limits we have and not need any new “rules”.

The innovation at this point needs to pivot to battery energy density and drivetrains (eCVTs/MGUs/etc). We’ve gotten enough power out of the motors at this point for what’s practical, now we need to work on refining it (Noise, reliability, weight) and working on those other components around it imo.

My preference is for cross country trail riding. Maybe 30 to 40 miles mostly off road. The power now available is great for handling tough long rocky trails. 1500wh and 150Nm has brought eMTB riding to a point where we have plenty of power.

But riders like me; range, weight, reliability and much better water/dust ingress protection are now the most important requirement.