How are eMTBs 1/3 the price of a Tesla model 3?

[Tooks]

For me the Tesla is poorly built and almost impossible to work on yourself. Once that batteries gone the car is disposable. My gripe is more with ev’s in general, not just Tesla. Watch them all die a slow death once they figure out hydrogen.

My wife has a Chinese built M3 LR, her choice, but it is very well built.

It has just turned 3 years old and 60k miles, and hasn’t missed a beat, panel gaps and paint are excellent, it’s needed a new rear light (under warranty) and normal tyres and wipers etc, otherwise zero maintenance.

If they figure out sustainable hydrogen, then great, bring it on and I’ll buy one if it’s a better proposition than whatever the alternatives at the time are.

 

[SwampNut]

And there lies the rub. Tesla owners generally aren’t ’car guys’. For some of us a car is more than just a tool. It needs to offer something more than value for money.

For me the Tesla is poorly built and almost impossible to work on yourself. Once that batteries gone the car is disposable. My gripe is more with ev’s in general, not just Tesla. Watch them all die a slow death once they figure out hydrogen.

I used to be a car guy. Extreme car guy. Now they bore me. I'm a Jeep guy too, but no longer have one because I won't drive it as a DD. I have a very full shop and work on all my stuff, and also realize that the likelihood of having to work on the Tesla is near zero. And there's a Tesla third party shop near me, and they refurb batteries. It's bullshit to claim that kills the car since I've already seen them fixed. Also there are a ton of them out there with 300k+, ten years, and batteries still fine. I have no idea what "poorly built" means since we went from a $74k BMW to this, and I think it's better put together, with a nicer interior other than the BMW leather was glorious.

I fully agree on hydrogen, but don't think we'll figure it out.

Tesla savings pay for the fun toys like motorcycles and e-mtb.

 

[Tooks]

I used to be a car guy. Extreme car guy. Now they bore me. I'm a Jeep guy too

I think a lot of anti EV commentators forget that most EV drivers used to be ICE drivers too, so do have a comparator to inform their thoughts/comments.

 

[TommyC]

My wife has a Chinese built M3 LR, her choice, but it is very well built.

I had read somewhere that they have various plants and where it’s built might have something to do with quality issues. I’ve spoken to numerous people with problems ranging from poorly fitted interiors and panels to steering and braking failures! My friend pulled up in his, new to him, 3 year old Tesla the other day and all the chrome was peeling off the door sills. My brother drove through 6” of water in his and it ended up in the shop.

 

[Tooks]

I had read somewhere that they have various plants and where it’s built might have something to do with quality issues. I’ve spoken to numerous people with problems ranging from poorly fitted interiors and panels to steering and braking failures! My friend pulled up in his, new to him, 3 year old Tesla the other day and all the chrome was peeling off the door sills. My brother drove through 6” of water in his and it ended up in the shop.

Yeah, I guess all cars have potential failure points, my wife’s car has black trim so no chrome to peel off at least.

For all their faults, China seem to be able to screw Tesla’s together ok, and I think the LR 3 years ago still used a Fremont built battery so kind of the best of both worlds.

The early US built models seemed to attract the most criticism and suffer the most issues, but I think generally things are much better now and the Chinese and German plants are turning out cars as good as anybody’s. I’d imagine the same goes for current US built models, Sandy Munro seems to think they’re pretty good anyway.

I have my reservations about the Model Y ‘structural battery’ innovations, that make repair of damaged cars potentially difficult and costly, but they are trying to move the game forward I suppose.

 

[Stoffel]

Why would you compare the price of a brand-new Tesla to a used, beater diesel van and two e-MTB's? The point I'm making is you couldn't get much in the way of a diesel van and two e-MTBs for the $25K you can pick up a nice used Tesla for. Or for the $40K of a new Tesla.

Why are people comparing bikes and Tesla’s? This whole thread is a bit ridiculous?!

You say it’s $40k for a new Tesla which is around £31.5k. Would you really struggle to buy 2 EMTB’s and a van for that money?

For that you could get 2 decent bikes for around £15k and have £16.5k left for a van. That gets you a used van with loads of life left in it, which is not a beater as you put it and is capable of years of use and many 10s of thousands of miles.

I’ve got nothing against electric cars and will probably get one as a second car in the not too distant future. I’ll get a 3 year old one for a decent price due to the horrendous depreciation of electric cars.

 

[SwampNut]

I think a lot of anti EV commentators forget that most EV drivers used to be ICE drivers too, so do have a comparator to inform their thoughts/comments.

I've been a machine/vehicle guy all my life. Motorcycles, bicycles, cars, trucks, Jeeps. I have bought, fixed, and sold more cars than most people will have driven in a lifetime. I'm just bored with it as far as daily driving. I turn the corner, turn on Autopilot, and have a nap. Ok, not really, but basically just don't care to "drive."

I'd still like a Jeep for occasional use. But I have a monster dirt bike.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Tesla will easily sell over 100,000 units yearly and cost things accordingly, now take say your emtb motor, even Bosch and Shimano aren't shipping that amount worldwide for emtb's. The unit cost shoots up, take in suspension and frames..and that's you answer. If you have a carbon frame, say, what's your car comparison, a Mclaren? Low volume production cost more, it's inevitable.

 

[MountainBoy]

Tesla will easily sell over 100,000 units yearly and cost things accordingly, now take say your emtb motor, even Bosch and Shimano aren't shipping that amount worldwide for emtb's. The unit cost shoots up, take in suspension and frames..and that's you answer. If you have a carbon frame, say, what's your car comparison, a Mclaren? Low volume production cost more, it's inevitable.

Bosch probably sells about the same or maybe more e-bike drive units than Tesla sells cars. Last year Tesla sold ~ 1.8 million vehicles, in 2020 Bosch sold 1.5 million drive units;

"According to Bosch, its e-bike unit sold more than 1.5 million drive systems in 2020, a 30% increase from the previous year. Its sales revenue also grew by 27% to 1.1 billion euros ($1.3 billion), making it one of the fastest-growing segments of the Bosch Group."

Bosch E-Bike Unit Surpasses $1B In Component Sales

Bosch is best known for utomotive components and household appliances. It also has a thriving e-bike business as well.

www.electrifiedmag.com

E-bikes are relatively expensive compared to a Tesla (relative to battery size, power, etc.) and it has little to do with unit volumes and much to do with vertical integration and efficiency of production and sales.

 

[CannonFodder]

I was going to wade into this with manufacturing costs and energy and other resource consumption jazz but I really can't be arsed.

Probably consumed too much pork and that has made you lethargic

 

[CannonFodder]

Watch them all die a slow death once they figure out hydrogen.

Quite a few of us will have shuffled off our mortal coils before that happens.

Plus, if your hydrogen powered car utilises a power cell then the development within EV's is still relevant.

 

[Moderator]

Just a brief reminder to everyone to try and keep the discussion civil.

Everyone has different opinions, but you can still express them without insulting others or using words which are disrespectful towards other peoples medical conditions.

 

[DieBoy]

According to Bosch, its e-bike unit sold more than 1.5 million drive systems in 2020, a 30% increase from the previous year

All true, however:

1) It will be interesting to see if that level of production continues or if it will plateu. I suspect a pandemic induced spike and that we're now entering a point of everyone who wants an ebike already has one and there'll be a slump of -3 years before people start upgrading.

2) The majority of those motors have been fitted to touring/city bikes, not MTBs. It probably varies by location, but eMTBs are going to be a smaller subset of the ebike market.

 

[Nomad1]

Ebikes will have crazy profit margins, where cars can run extremely thin margins and competition is fierce.
6300$ gets you this

Kawasaki KLX®300R | Off-Road Motorcycle | The Ultimate Trail Bike

The Kawasaki KLX®300R trail bike is powered by a 292cc liquid-cooled four-stroke single and features a lightweight perimeter frame for ultimate off-road thrills.

www.kawasaki.com

and thats about the cost of most EMTBs people are riding

Also you could spend over fifty grand on one of Kawasaki's other bikes

 

[MountainBoy]

All true, however:

1) It will be interesting to see if that level of production continues or if it will plateu. I suspect a pandemic induced spike and that we're now entering a point of everyone who wants an ebike already has one and there'll be a slump of -3 years before people start upgrading.

2) The majority of those motors have been fitted to touring/city bikes, not MTBs. It probably varies by location, but eMTBs are going to be a smaller subset of the ebike market.

Yes, but the point was simply that the volume of all of Bosch's e-drives are in the same ballpark as the volume of all of Tesla's EV models. Sure, Bosch has a few more drive unit variations than Tesla has EV models, but those drive variations have more similarity to one another from an engineering/design/manufacturing efficiency perspective vs. Tesla's different models of EV's do. All in all, I think the volume efficiencies are roughly in the same ballpark, not a stark difference.

Thus we need to explain the pricing disconnects of e-MTBs vs. EVs through the greater vertical integration and corporate efficiency that Tesla has. E-Bike manufacturers are not vertically integrated at all, they pretty much buy every component from suppliers, and those suppliers make high margins on those components. Especially manufacturers like Bosch, who have robust, powerful, efficient drive units with proven reliability.

The reason Tesla is such an efficient manufacturer is because they had to compete head-to-head against a mature, ubiquitous technology (internal combustion vehicles) with a technology that wasn't mature, all the components were not already available from suppliers in high volume, batteries used to be very expensive, etc. In other words, Tesla knew they had to cut fat out of the organization, and out of the manufacture, relentlessly or their products would not be competitive with ICE in the marketplace. So they focused on getting costs down like a laser, right up to the point of not spending money on advertising. Because, ultimately, the consumer has to pay for all that advertising. Now we have watched lithium batteries fall in price, while increase in longevity and power density for two decades, solid state inverters and electric motor design has matured and increased in efficiency of manufacture, specialized chips, controllers and sensors have decreased in prices, etc. and Tesla is vertically integrated so they have to send suppliers very little money per car (vs. their competition who has to sell their EV's at a loss).

Meanwhile, the e-MTB manufacturers are basically assemblers of parts from their many suppliers. All they build is the frame, a lot of suppliers are making nice margins on every component. That means a lot of companies are sucking at the teat when you pull your wallet out. If Tesla made e-MTBs using the same lean manufacturing techniques, low corporate overhead and high volume, vertically integrated purchasing, you could buy a state-of-the-art, full suspension
e-MTB that was superior in many ways to the works of art we see in the marketplace today, for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price. But it would have taken them many years of development, at annual losses, to get there. They would need billions of dollars, even while being as efficient as possible, to develop their own gearing systems for their drive units (and they would look nothing like the current systems).

In this alternate reality the FUD (AKA fake news) would come not from oil companies and legacy automakers, but companies like Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Bafang, etc. who were being displaced by a company willing to re-think every design decision to make the lightest, most robust, most efficient components for less manufacturing and distribution cost.

 

[Ark]

Also you could spend over fifty grand on one of Kawasaki's other bikes

yea and? the raw materials, RND and manufacturing of the bike I chose as an example will be way higher than the costs for an EMTB.
I was making a direct comparison between 2 different types of bikes that cost the same money.

What has a 50k bike go to do with anything? have you got a 50k EMTB we can compare it too? maybe in a few more years

I was comparing 2 types of bikes that cost the same money and can handle the same terrain. surely a fair and even comparison ?

E-bikes are relatively expensive compared to a Tesla (relative to battery size, power, etc.) and it has little to do with unit volumes and much to do with vertical integration and efficiency of production and sales.

People really believe that?

 

[Yoak]

I think it’s crazy how expensive Ebola’s are. My Rail 9.8 cost 1/3 of my second hand Model 3 LR. My Tesla runs very well, I’m on my second Bosch motor already. I’ve had 3 Rail 9.8s and I’ve never had a Bosch motor last more than a year on either of them. I had them replaced for free, but still…

 

[Tooks]

Some EMTBs are 1/3 the price of a car/motorbike/whatever simply because that’s what the market will pay.

That’s the top and bottom of it, surely?

Whilst I hesitate to go back to Tesla, whilst they are ‘vertically integrated’, they still buy a lot of stuff in and they were still eye wateringly expensive when launched, and they by all accounts operate with a considerable margin hence they can vary pricing for the exact same thing built in the same factory for different markets, and are able to implement cuts to pricing seemingly at will.

An ebike is only like a Tesla in that it has a motor and battery, the rest is all puff and fluff.

 

[Ark]

I think it’s crazy how expensive Ebola’s are. My Rail 9.8 cost 1/3 of my second hand Model 3 LR. My Tesla runs very well, I’m on my second Bosch motor already. I’ve had 3 Rail 9.8s and I’ve never had a Bosch motor last more than a year on either of them. I had them replaced for free, but still…

Norway though, you must ride in a lot of wet/snow? do you have your bike on a bike rack exposed to the elements?

if your driving at like 70mph that rain is smashing into your bike at 70mph, you might as well take a 70mph wet air and aim it at your cranks.
With how the motors are in cool air when the air inside the motor is warm condensation could form.

It's not like the motors are fully sealed, almost designed to last as long as the warranty before the problems become obvious.
Unless you live in a dry warm country

 

[Yoak]

Norway though, you must ride in a lot of wet/snow? do you have your bike on a bike rack exposed to the elements?

if your driving at like 70mph that rain is smashing into your bike at 70mph, you might as well take a 70mph wet air and aim it at your cranks.
With how the motors are in cool air when the air inside the motor is warm condensation could form.

It's not like the motors are fully sealed, almost designed to last as long as the warranty before the problems become obvious.
Unless you live in a dry warm country

Hi.
I ride in the snow in the winter, but I always carry the bike inside my car to avoid the road salt they are using up here. I think the wet autumn is probably worse than the biking in the cold with snow all around.

 

[billium]

Beyond the massive asymmetry of overall value for money, consider just the motor:
Ebikes in general seem to have motors that will last 1000-5000 miles as long as you don't get them too wet or heaven forbid powerwash them. There is no 'user maintenance' possible - no way to grease the bearings and no way to tell if water has got in until the noises start up & thus too late.
Tesla claim their motors last a million miles but its pretty obvious they last well over 200,000 miles while often being continuously powerwashed at 70mph on the motorway without issues. So, at the very least they have figured out how to keep the water out. Why is waterproofing so hard for Ebike motors?

 

[SwampNut]

Why is waterproofing so hard for Ebike motors?

Weight and size is my best guess. Also the Tesla is getting power-washed in a single direction that is surely shielded since they know. On a bicycle there's nothing to keep the jet from hitting the seals. I bet the Tesla's seals never get hit at all.

 

[Stoffel]

Weight and size is my best guess. Also the Tesla is getting power-washed in a single direction that is surely shielded since they know. On a bicycle there's nothing to keep the jet from hitting the seals. I bet the Tesla's seals never get hit at all.

More likely that the better the crank seal is the more resistance it would cause which would lead to a reduction in range.
Personally I’d gladly sacrifice a bit of range for a more water resistant motor.

 

[sethimus]

Personally, if I thought BEV's were the answer, I certainly wouldn't be doing business with a sub-human POS like Elon Musk and would go to superior products from other manufacturers. There are plenty of e-bike manufacturers that don't cause me to have to compromise my values.

how do you really know that? do you ask them first where they stand politically before you buy?

 

[SwampNut]

how do you really know that? do you ask them first where they stand politically before you buy?

LOL, right? Like is Shimano related to anyone who bombed Pearl Harbor or tortured Chinese prisoners? Goofy. Oh, and of course, don't buy a Volkswagen. Probably too soon to talk about that little faux pas.

 

[Quinterly]

LOL, right? Like is Shimano related to anyone who bombed Pearl Harbor or tortured Chinese prisoners? Goofy. Oh, and of course, don't buy a Volkswagen. Probably too soon to talk about that little faux pas.

You're not the least bit simplistic, are you?

The question is about where my consumer dollars end up. Supporting Shimano today is not endorsing their actions 80 years ago. If the profits earned from my consumer choices wind up either in the pockets of reprehensible people like Elon Musk or dictators like Vladimir Putin (small example, I won't consider Kaspersky products because they pay Russian taxes), I will make different choices. I will not be a part of financing their activities. I didn't buy a single Apple product when Steve Jobs ran the company, I have no issue buying from Apple under Tim Cook's stewardship.

I do exercise my conscience as a consumer and try to make informed choices. It's not always possible or practical, but I will continue to try to do so. If I ever am considering a BEV, it won't be a Tesla. Might be a Volvo/Polestar, might be a Hyundai/Kia, might be a VW/Audi/Porsche (notwithstanding dieselgate) ... but I will not be financing Elon Musk's complete lack of honesty or decency.

 

[SwampNut]

I'm this simplistic: Does the math make sense? Will it deliver a good fit in my life? Done. Musk is a a whiny child, and yet his shitiness is nowhere near the level of having to boycott something. I also switched to Apple when it made sense, not when the crazy screwball died. I'm not going to buy another brand which will provably cost me much more time on road trips, and has junk self-driving features.

Apple just pulled out of their car development and test track here. Blew $20M and can't compete with Tesla. Who has spent $19B for the entire run, and has a bit more to show for it.

 

[Polar]

Hi.
I ride in the snow in the winter, but I always carry the bike inside my car to avoid the road salt they are using up here. I think the wet autumn is probably worse than the biking in the cold with snow all around.

I did ~20.000km all year round with a Bosch CX Gen2 motor without any problems including lots of salty roads and ~10.000km with 3 different Brose also no problems but I always carefully hose down and oil the bikes afterwards.

 

[Yoak]

Was it trail riding or commuting (or both)? Probably more than 95% of the time spent on my Rails are off road on single tracks. I hose down my bike with a gardenhose, never power wash it. I’m not sure why the motors fail, but I suspect water coming in. They have all (mostly) thrown different error codes

 

[Quinterly]

I'm this simplistic: Does the math make sense? Will it deliver a good fit in my life? Done. Musk is a a whiny child, and yet his shitiness is nowhere near the level of having to boycott something. I also switched to Apple when it made sense, not when the crazy screwball died. I'm not going to buy another brand which will provably cost me much more time on road trips, and has junk self-driving features.

Apple just pulled out of their car development and test track here. Blew $20M and can't compete with Tesla. Who has spent $19B for the entire run, and has a bit more to show for it.

Congratulations ... I take no issue with your opinion of the value of a Tesla (it's your opinion, you're entitled) even if I don't share that opinion. Both of us are entitled. Why do you feel it's necessary to mock people who use other criteria, including the ones I use, for decision making?