eMTB shopping thought process

[Gyre]

Hey all, first post!

I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on my first eMTB and would like some feedback
on my shopping thought process.

Some background - I live in SoCal, have 30 years riding experience, weigh a little over 100kg geared up,
and am struggling with lots of adult priorities conflicting with the kind of riding I used to do. I used
to regularly climb 4500' on fire roads every weekend year round and do single and double black diamond runs
at Mammoth. I'm hoping to "revolutionize" my riding experience with a bike that has the juice to
give me more options on a short lunch ride, but on days when I do have more time I want to really open up
more choices: explore further/higher than before, do familiar rides in less time, or self-shuttle/lap techy
trails to work on my skills. I'm looking for something in the all-mountain/enduro spectrum, so figure minimum
travel numbers of F/R 160/150mm , piggy-back reservoir rear shock, preferably 38mm fork stanchions, and
203mm rotors (223 compatibility a plus).

I have the mechanical skills to build up my rides and wheelsets, so that *is* an option, but I also want to
consider a complete bike so I can enjoy it very soon instead of perhaps not finishing until fall. When I was younger
and had fewer responsibilities I used to do my builds in 3 hardcore days, but my last frame build took 8 months
to finish and the one before that took well over a year.

I've been reading and educating myself as much as possible about what's out there. The Turbo Levo SL is a little
bit more "trail-bike" than I'm looking for, but I was willing to consider it. It was initially very interesting since it's very
acoustic-like but there are a lot of downsides: The frameset is crazy expensive, really hard to get in my size (probably
medium, maybe large), has old-school geometry, not sure if the small motor and battery will play nicely with my
weight, and the carbon completes seem to have a really weak product spec unless you go well into $10k+ land.
(I'm willing to do $7500 but the Carbon Comp spec seems disappointing). The proprietary battery is also a big
minus, and I've heard that the high-pitched whine from the motor is pretty bad.

The Levo FF shares most of the same issues as the Levo SL. Sure, the motor is more powerful and the battery is
definitely nicer but it's proprietary/crazy expensive, you definitely can't bring a spare on the trail, and apparently it
has no extender option.

I'm actually leaning towards the 2021 Intense Tazer Pro as my first choice. I like the looks, progressive geometry,
beefier/better parts spec (I'd be happy to run it as-is, where most completes within my budget make me wince), and
the fact that the batteries could be sourced at competitive prices from multiple vendors and can be swapped out
trailside with minimal effort. I also like that the EP8 motor is supposed to be super quiet while running. Last but
not least, the bike is apparently available next month, Downsides: The standover seems substantially higher than I'd
like, I really don't like that the Shimano motors rattle while coasting, and the 504Wh battery seems a little small for
an FF bike. The downsides are not great, but in terms of tradeoffs it seems pretty compelling.

Second place consideration: the Trek Rail 9.8 XT. A little more expensive. Parts spec is extremely appealing (XT/Zeb!),
reviews great, standover is much better. Geo looks great. Bosch CX4 is supposed to be really good. Downside:
Apparently this rattles too, Battery is extremely proprietary, maybe too expensive and/or bulky to carry a spare
and swap trailside, and there don't seem to be great range extender options.

Third place consideration: YT Decoy Elite. Great value proposition, super parts, longer travel. Geo has potential
(May need to size up to L). Downsides: Constantly sold out (?) Standover unclear, E8000 motor
is a generation behind and weaker/less efficient, rattles, battery is very proprietary and swapping/range
extension doesn't seem to be an option.

I've also looked at the Norco Sight VLT (non-swappable 630Wh battery, rides maybe a little too big).

If you've read this far, thanks for listening, seriously!
Given everything, does it look like my priorities and personal rankings are well aligned or am I really
off-base somewhere?

 

[The Hodge]

You're overthinking things ..just grab a test ride of two and see which one you like best ...

 

[7869hodgy]

You're overthinking things ..just grab a test ride or two and see which one you like best ...

Boom! 100% agree.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Like the Hodge twins said ..

We're all guilty of it, fine tooth comb through the paper stats ultimately trying to thread our way through the maze to "THE PERFECT BIKE".

Ultimately, they're all good these days and so much of it comes down to personal preference on how each bike feels for YOU. There's also - which one you like the look of - on paper it can be the best bike in the world, but if you're spending that much money and you think it looks like a dog - you won't be happy.

The motors are vary slightly with their sounds, some whine a bit like an RC car, some don't . It annoys some people and other's don't care or notice it. Everyone rides differently too, if you ride hard, you might notice the ep8/Bosch sounds when descending, but that also varies bike to bike, setup to setup, rider to rider.

 

[Mteam]

As above, but a few more thoughts:-

Forget the proprietary battery/non proprietary battery as a differentiator, you have pretty much no choice in that area, all the main motor systems (bosch,brose,shimano) use a proprietary battery .

Buying an ebike is just like buying a regular bike - geometry is king - narrow down your choices to those that have a geo that suits, then use other factors to whittle the choice down further.

 

[Gyre]

As above, but a few more thoughts:-

Forget the proprietary battery/non proprietary battery as a differentiator, you have pretty much no choice in that area, all the main motor systems (bosch,brose,shimano) use a proprietary battery .

Sure, but there are different levels of "proprietary". Some Shimano batteries are sold on the open market and fitted to a variety of different bikes so there should be more opportunities to get spares or replacements at a more competitive $/Wh ratio. If you want a spare or replacement battery for a Rail or Decoy, you have no alternative at all except either paying the manufacturer whatever they ask or going without. It also seems that Shimano batteries don't have as many measures preventing third-party duplication, so perhaps there could be third-party alternatives down the road.

Buying an ebike is just like buying a regular bike - geometry is king - narrow down your choices to those that have a geo that suits, then use other factors to whittle the choice down further.

Fair enough.

 

[Gyre]

You're overthinking things ..just grab a test ride of two and see which one you like best ...

Have you had any luck finding eMTB test rides since COVID? I was under the impression that they're really hard to come by these days.

 

[Mteam]

Sure, but there are different levels of "proprietary". Some Shimano batteries are sold on the open market and fitted to a variety of different bikes so there should be more opportunities to get spares or replacements at a more competitive $/Wh ratio. If you want a spare or replacement battery for a Rail or Decoy, you have no alternative at all except either paying the manufacturer whatever they ask or going without. It also seems that Shimano batteries don't have as many measures preventing third-party duplication, so perhaps there could be third-party alternatives down the road.



Fair enough.

ah - so you dont mean proprietary for the batteries, you just mean sold on the open market? in europe the bosch batteries are also sold on the open market and fitted to a variety of bikes and hence available at many different prices - same as shimano. Surprised its not the same in the US?

 

[The Hodge]

Well you could be right ..Ive no idea what its like over there ..I bought my bike purely on the fact that the geometry "sounded " right and loved the same branded mtb I had ( Whyte)
I didn't test ride ..but was confident in my choice from the reviews & videos I'd seen ..and was prepared for a lengthy wait ..
Even if you end up hating the choice you eventually make ( and I'm sure you won't given the amount of analysis you have done ) I wouldn't sweat it too much ..there's a worldwide shortage so you will have no trouble selling it ?

 

[Gyre]

ah - so you dont mean proprietary for the batteries, you just mean sold on the open market?

That's probably a better way of putting it. In the US we sometimes also talk about the level of "DRM" that some products use to try to lock out third parties from entering the market. My understanding is that Bosch has much stricter DRM.

in europe the bosch batteries are also sold on the open market and fitted to a variety of bikes and hence available at many different prices - same as shimano. Surprised its not the same in the US?

Well, I could be mistaken but I don't think you can buy a Bosch Powertube 625 and simply plug it in to a Trek Rail. Ditto with the Decoy's battery. I *think* they're one-off designs.

 

[Voluptua]

I think they're standard batteries, in a proprietary casing.

 

[Hobo Mikey]

Stop thinking to much, your wasting bike time.

 

[Mteam]

That's probably a better way of putting it. In the US we sometimes also talk about the level of "DRM" that some products use to try to lock out third parties from entering the market. My understanding is that Bosch has much stricter DRM.



Well, I could be mistaken but I don't think you can buy a Bosch Powertube 625 and simply plug it in to a Trek Rail. Ditto with the Decoy's battery. I *think* they're one-off designs.

The rail uses just a standard powertube 625 battery (cant remember whether its horizontal or vertical type ) - you can buy a new one on the open market from the cheapest supplier and plug it in no problem . Same goes for all the current bosch bikes (I have an orbea wild fs that uses the bosch system) , they all just use standard bosch batteries and are interchangable as long as you use the same type (vertical/horizonal) and capacity (although you can buy spacers to fit a 500wh battery into a bike that originally used a 625wh battery for example) . you cant use a battery from another manufacturer though.

The decoy uses a proprietary YT battery, and you can only replace it with the same that is only available from YT.

 

[Rusty]

That's probably a better way of putting it. In the US we sometimes also talk about the level of "DRM" that some products use to try to lock out third parties from entering the market. My understanding is that Bosch has much stricter DRM.

Get used to it. Bosch was first off the rank to provide a system that has 'anti-tamper' to adhere to the draconian EU regulations. Expect everyone else to follow suit or they will not be able to sell into the Socialist Union.

Well, I could be mistaken but I don't think you can buy a Bosch Powertube 625 and simply plug it in to a Trek Rail. Ditto with the Decoy's battery. I *think* they're one-off designs.

I think you will find the Bosch Powertube is the same in all bikes that use the latest version motor. They do come in a couple different sizes, but are basically similar. There are slots on the front of the battery that accomodate different panels per manufacturer. The internal batteries I believe use those slots as locators when fitting.

In a little over a year I have had a Scott eGenius with the Shimano e8000, a Levo Comp with the Brose and now a Scott eGenius with the Bosch CX motor. Each system has good points and bad points from my perspective.
To me the Shimano was the more natural feeling of the 3 motors. The Brose was the quietest, but under load can get noisy as most others. Only reason I sold the Scott was being around 112 kegs I was not getting the range I wanted on the trails I ride and the Speshy gace me the option to fit the 700W/h battery. With the original 504W/h battery the range was almost exactly the same as the Shimano - nowhere near what my dealer claimed it would be. After a belt failure I ditched it ASAP and bought the Scott with the Bosch motor. Unlike some, I don't hear the rattles some complain of and definitely prefer the Fox suspension and Shimano brakes over the Rockshox and SRAM brakes on the Levo.
Overall the Scott at a similar price point is way better specced than the Speshy.
Have also had a ride on a SL - didn't like it much at all and felt I would be underpowered/underbatteried for my size. Have also rode a Giant with the Yamaha motor and would happily own one. The motor is a bit abrupt how it starts off but I think one would get used to is fairly quickly. I also liked the way it worked better at a lower cadence than the other motors - at a guess I would think tghe ideal cadence would be 10 - 15 rpm less than the others. Have also rode a Fauza powered bike and like the SL I felt underpowered/underbatteried.

 

[Gyre]

Following up here. I went to the local Trek dealer and verified that the Rail RIB does indeed use a vanilla Bosch Powertube (vertical mount) at its core, and can use either a 625Wh version or a 500Wh version with a spacer. The parts needed to adapt the Powertube to become a Trek RIB can be ordered, but it's not cheap at all: Almost $400USD not counting the battery itself. My estimate is that all up it would cost $1200+ for a spare 500Wh battery and close to $1500 for a spare 625Wh battery ($2.4/Wh either way) versus the Shimano battery for the Intense at $570 for 504Wh ($1.1/Wh).

Anyhow, just passing the information along to anyone who might turn up this thread in the future.

 

[DtEW]

Hi OP. I am basically you except riding weight is 30lbs lighter plus a nearly 10-year non-riding gap over the 2010s. My decision matrix had different considerations, but in the end we chose the 2021 Specialized Levo Comps (FF, and yes, multiple) because:

1. Fox 36 (seriously did not want a 34mm fork for 160mm)
2. Straight SLX drivetrain/brakes (eMTB consumable consumption rate is significantly accelerated over a manual MTB; SLX struck a very good price/performance/wear rate ratio that could be improved with select XT bits)
3. Popular - the 2nd-gen FF Levos are extremely popular, which is to say that it is prohibitive for the OEM to ignore-issues/abandon-in-lieu-of-next-refresh (see Brose Mag S motor physical & firmware updates to address reliability issues), and economically-attractive for 3rd-party companies to support with aftermarket parts (see Cascade Levo Link, various Levo-specific rear fenders, etc.).
4. Local - Speshy has a strong dealership network, especially-so in CA. And for things beyond the dealer network, Speshy is one-day ground shipping back-and-forth to/from Morgan Hills (certainly-so here in the Bay Area, and still-so from SoCal).

As much as it seems to make sense to aim for less-proprietary components in hopes of future-proofing, the reality is that this field is still in a stage wild with innovation/evolution, maybe even revolution. And Shimano/Bosch batteries are no less proprietary than Speshy batteries in that none of them have enough market volume to assure 3rd-party support of legacy products if Shimano/Bosch/Speshy decides that it needs to move-on from an older generation of products by upping-its-specs and/or evolving-its-form in order to compete with its evolving/advancing peers. Your best bet (but not a sure-bet by any means) is not-so-much the number of brands that are spanned, but rather the number of products you see sold and out there in-use. For my eyes here in NorCal, it is hands-down the FF Levo. They are pretty much 2/3rds of all eMTBs I see on the trails... and there are a lot of eMTBs out here.

Also, eMTB access is something that is quickly evolving as well. Not that I think future access will split hairs within Class I eMTBs, but the sheer number of FF Levos out there makes it hard to not-accommodate if eMTBs are to be accommodated at all.

In summary, I think the FF Levo is a relatively safe choice in a fast-evolving field, by virtue of popularity. This may be important to you too, or not.

 

[Gyre]

Straight SLX drivetrain/brakes (eMTB consumable consumption rate is significantly accelerated over a manual MTB; SLX struck a very good price/performance/wear rate ratio that could be improved with select XT bits)

That's a really good observation, thanks. Normally I run the lightest components I can get away with, but the wear factor makes sense.

In summary, I think the FF Levo is a relatively safe choice in a fast-evolving field, by virtue of popularity. This may be important to you too, or not.

We don't have so many Levos on the trails around here. It used to be mostly Haibike for everybody and now it's broadened out, but I'm pretty sure I would have noticed if Levos were dominant. I put a refundable deposit down on a Rail and am arranging for a Tazer test ride, but I'll take another look at the Levo and see if it's worth reconsidering.

 

[steve_sordy]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Kenovo. I am not a cheerleader for Speccy, but given the OP's skills and history, I would have thought the Kenovo would be a better fit.