Answered Ebike groupsets - mix and match

[RustyMojo]

Hi chaps,
First time poster and ebike new boy.

first off, I have been a long term manual MTB rider. Based in the U.K. and I’m pretty handy with the spanner’s. I recently purchased my first ebike as family life and work has seen me significantly lose the love and time to ride, as a result I have lost a chunk of fitness. So manual rides are laboured. I bought a Base model 21 Rail 5 new this week. I looked at the new models, but frankly I didn’t see the value in the higher spec models as I’d end up changing parts left right and centre to get the spec I wanted anyway.

Initially I was planning on getting my suspension set up sorted first, I had planned on changing the SX groupset as it wore out. However a quick pedal up and down my road has highlightedhow pretty awful feeling and shifting the SX is. Now I can play around with it to index better etc. But am I pissing in the wind and would I be better just binning the crap off the bat? My manual bike (ibis Mojo HD4) has a mixture of Xo1 Eagle and GX, it’s been flawless (well once I upgraded the rear mech)

Im initially looking at changing the mech and shifter to Shimano SLX but running the SX cassette. My question is…is the SX cassette OK or is it just as bad as the rest of the groupset? Is the SX shifter improved by fitting an X01 rear mech? Or will shifting still be pony?

Finally I can’t see any specific Ebike shifters for Shimano, is a standard SLX 12spd shifter going to be Ok? I don’t want to mash several gears and then rip my new mech off because I should’ve bought a 1 shift only setup.

apologies if these are stupid questions, I have never spent any time looking at ebike kit having never really been interested until this point!!

 

[steve_sordy]

Apart from the SRAM 8-speed groupset (called EX I believe) I don't think that there is an e-specific groupset. Comment is mixed on the 8-speed stuff. Some say it has the range and all the gears they need, others say they can never find the gear they want, either too high or too low. And it is expensive. 12-speed seems to be the speed fitted on top end bikes, but why? It puts the mech in harm's way and makes all the kit expensive to replace. My current bike came with 12-speed and it's good, but the components are expensive. I liked the 11-speed on my last bike, but it still has expensive components. There is a lot of support for going to 10-speed. 10-speed kit is much cheaper to replace and you can still get it in top end specification, so shifting will be good. Don't forget that the motor will give you more oomph to get up that hill, so having a big gear at the back is not as important as on a manual bike.

If I had an e-bike with budget transmission and was unhappy with it, I would not install 12-speed. I would have to think hard between 10 & 11 speed, probably leaning towards 10-speed.

 

[RickBullotta]

There are no eBike specific shifters/derailleurs from Shimano. Your limiting factor here is going to be the freehub body that came with your bike - it is likely an older style Shimano freehub so you won't be able to use Shimano 12 speed cassettes, which require microspline, or the higher level SRAM 12 speed cassettes, which require XD.

 

[Gary]

NX shifts absolutely fine if set up by someone not only "handy on the spanners" but knowledgeable in modern bike mechanics and SRAM's current range.
Take it to a shop mechanic.

You don't need an Ebike specific groupset. But if you're not an infit/lazy pie you may benefit from a closer ratio less range cassette on an Ebike. As Steve has eluded to smart money in this instance would go 10 speed with a mid range cassette, Shimano clutch mech (DEORE or SLX if going wider ratio than 11-36. ZEE, SAINT otherwise) and any Shimano 10speed mtb shifter.
Your Freehub will be HG so it's a simple no hassle swap over.

Closer ratio cassettes shift far smoother. And that alone will reduce drivetrain wear rate.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

There are no eBike specific shifters/derailleurs from Shimano

Yet

 

[RustyMojo]

NX shifts absolutely fine if set up by someone not only "handy on the spanners" but knowledgeable in modern bike mechanics and SRAM's current range.
Take it to a shop mechanic.

You don't need an Ebike specific groupset. But if you're not an infit/lazy pie you may benefit from a closer ratio less range cassette on an Ebike. As Steve has eluded to smart money in this instance would go 10 speed with a mid range cassette, Shimano clutch mech (DEORE or SLX if going wider ratio than 11-36. ZEE, SAINT otherwise) and any Shimano 10speed mtb shifter.
Your Freehub will be HG so it's a simple no hassle swap over.

Closer ratio cassettes shift far smoother. And that alone will reduce drivetrain wear rate.

Ha ha, I haven’t touched it yet thanks. It’s as it came from the shop mines proper peasant spec by the way so SX not NX. I’m more than capable in being able to index and setup bike gearing. I’ve been doing it for some time.

The plan was to replace it all as and When it wore out, but a quick spin up the street (all I have had time to do whilst I await my invisiframe delivery) suggested it felt poor quality. But then I’m used to the high end SRAm kit. My preference with al things groupset related would be Shimano. So if there is not a specific groupo for ebikes I’ll source some kit. The bike has SX so will have the good old fashion Free hub so I may look at 10speed as in my experience that was the sweet spot.

another possibly stupid question, I guess running smaller range cassettes would have some adverse effect on range? Again this is an assumption? Am I right? I ride a lot of off piste stuff in South Wales and enjoy my trips up in the Golfie/Tweed valley area so don’t want to compromise too much.

Again apologies relying on the experience of long term ebike riders in trying to jump the learning curve somewhat.

 

[RustyMojo]

There are no eBike specific shifters/derailleurs from Shimano. Your limiting factor here is going to be the freehub body that came with your bike - it is likely an older style Shimano freehub so you won't be able to use Shimano 12 speed cassettes, which require microspline, or the higher level SRAM 12 speed cassettes, which require XD.

Hi
Yes thanks I’m aware of that, it’s why I asked about the SX cassette. View being, if it’s not junk I’ll use it with Shimano mech and shifter. If the cassette is part of the issue I may have to get my wheels built sooner.

like I say, I’m just trying to bridge my gap between my expositions manual Knowledge and what’s the current thought du Jour within the ebike world

 

[R120]

Actually Shimano has launched a whole drivetrain range called Linkglide aimed at EBikes - its basically more robust versions of their existing drivetrain ranges but in 10 speed and 11 speed options , it was announced a while ago but as far as I am aware hasn't hit the market yet likely due to production delays:

Shimano Introduces New 'Linkglide' Drivetrain Technology with Bold Longevity Claims - Pinkbike

Linkglide aims prioritise durability and shift performance.

www.pinkbike.com

 

[Gary]

SX not NX. I’m more than capable in being able to index and setup bike gearing. I’ve been doing it for some time

SX works fine too. Especially brand new.
If you're genuinely perfectly capable of setting it up properly you really won't be pissing in the wind taking the time to do so.
SX is mechanically little different from the rest of the SRAM line up. where it loses out to it's more expensive drivetrain components is in the materials it's constructed from. ie. it's heavier, weaker, flexier and less durable. so other thsan the cheaper feel of the shifter it won't be until it starts to wear when you'll feel a properly noticable reduction in performance. There's def more play in the main pivot of a SX/NX mech from new but the clutch/chain tension generally stops it being an issue in use.
You'll no doubt already know but chain length, B-tension, good smooth cable routing and hanger alignment are all far more important to achieve smooth shifting on a wide range 12 speed system. and Emtb internal cable routing does not always follow the smoothest route.

The plan was to replace it all as and When it wore out

Yeah. That's the best plan really. it's not worth S/H a lot if you whip it off while still new to sell and put towards the price of replacement parts.

another possibly stupid question, I guess running smaller range cassettes would have some adverse effect on range? Again this is an assumption? Am I right? I ride a lot of off piste stuff in South Wales and enjoy my trips up in the Golfie/Tweed valley area so don’t want to compromise too much.

Depends how fit you are I suppose. I'm local to the Tweed Valley and run an 11-36 cassette and 36t ring and don't struggle to climb anything. Even the shitty/wet top part of the Thornielee climb.

Again apologies relying on the experience of long term ebike riders in trying to jump the learning curve somewhat.

No need to apologise.
I've been riding Emtb for 3 or 4 years now. and running that 10 speed gearing since my first 11 speed shimano cassette wore out. probably done 20000 miles on it now.
Zee (FR) mech/shifter. Deore cassettes.
it not only lasts waaay longer it's also lighter than current top end 12 speed. at around 10% of the running cost

Out of choice I've always avoided running the properly wide range cassettes as I actually HATE the slow shifts you ALWAYS get from 12 speed wide range cassettes. Even with X01/XTR.
And for that reason my normal Enduro bike is running a 10-42 11 speed cassette and 34T ring. Same riding (Golfie/inners etc.)
Not saying you should do the same. just putting it out there.

 

[Gary]

The SX cassette has the same shifting ramp design technology as higher range 12 speed SRAM cassettes.
Same with lower range Shimano versus high end

 

[RustyMojo]

Thanks @Gary for the note. That’s pleasing to hear. I’m just invisiframing the bike at the moment so will set up the SX properly and go from there. But if it’s good enough to get up that shitty bit at Thornielee that’s good enough for me. I’ll smash through what’s on the bike and take it from there. I’m not sold on the whole 12speed stuff anyway, just that as I rode less it undoubtedly helped my ageing legs (manual bike) never really understood why it was needed on an ebike. But like I said previously I have been blissfully ignorant (blind) to the whole thing as I refused to admit I wanted one. Now as I’m riding less and doing less events/races I’m all about just getting my love back for the sport. So reducing absolute fear failure is key at the minute

 

[Mikerb]

Your choices may be made for you in terms of availability!!

In terms of drivetrain I think it best to choose a steel ( mostly) cassette rather than ally, and a steel chainring. In terms of what works best one way to check options is to see what your bike brand or others chose to put on their mid to upper range bikes.

Gear selector and mech are best matched.

You can mix mech and cassette (same brand) and indeed many brands chose to use a cassette that is a lower spec than the mech if that cassette is steel.

A full suspension bike benefits from a mech with a good clutch and drivetrain technology like narrow wide to a void chain problems.

As has been said a bove, if you are going to stick, at least for now, with the same rear hub, then you are limited to what fits whatever freehub you have ( unless the rear hub has the option to change freehub). If your freehub is HG SRAM 11 speed GX mech/NX cassette as per the Levo below will fit.

I only have more extensive experience with SRAM drivetrains so for what it is worth here are a couple of examples of standard spec on my bikes.

Whyte E180 RS...top of the range model with really good spec throughout.........SRAM X01 MMX12 speed shift lever, SRAM X01 Mech, SRAM XG 1275 Eagle 10-52 cassette. SRAM GX Eagle chain.

Levo Comp.........lower to mid range model/2019.........SRAM GX mech and shifter, SRAM PG 1130 11-42 ( 11 speed NX steel cassette). KMC 11 speed chain.

X01 delivers somewhat smoother and quieter shifting than GX and requires less "backing off" during gearchange, but GX works absolutely reliably and components ( especially the cassette) are considerably cheaper. Note both shifters are single click.

I use the highest gear on both systems but have never used the lowest gear on the 11 speed or the 12 speed. Both however have in my view very good gearing increments and I see no reason to change from 12 to 11 or 11 to 10 just because one of the cogs is not used. That lowest cog is always ally so best a voided anyway!!

 

[RustyMojo]

Hmm I’d disagree about GX, I went through 3 of their derailleur on my last bike before going X01. Which was largely faultless.
Given that SX kit is worth two tenths of f all, i’ll run it until it falls to bits. Which may be a week, maybe a year. But actually moving back to 10 or 11 speed gives me some decent options. If nothing else a mech that doesn’t sit 3 inches from the trail.

thanks for the advice chaps, it at least confirms there isn’t anything significantly different between E and normall. So I’ll sort a setup out over the coming weeks I’m sure