Does your motor meet the EN 15194:2017 standard

[Valaminium]

That's not the impression I'm getting from mental gymnastics being performed to try and create an issue.

Mate ..... The Avinox Motor System came out 2 years ago. No government regulatory body has banned the Avinox drive system, and it is fully certified in the regions where it is sold. Including all regions where it must be EN15194 compliant.

That's no one ...... Zero ...... Nada ..... Do I need to find more languages to get the message across ?

Whilst I'm happy for people to raise concerns. How long do we have to keep reading threads that drone on about this tampering nonsense ? Is 2 years not enough ?

That's not the impression I'm getting from mental gymnastics being performed to try and create an issue.

— We’re not , those that are supposedly natively English speaking are and when a concern for the European region is raised tend to defend the manufacturer for a location they don’t even reside - It’s almost like they work for them

Mate ..... The Avinox Motor System came out 2 years ago. No government regulatory body has banned the Avinox drive system, and it is fully certified in the regions where it is sold. Including all regions where it must be EN15194 compliant.

— Two years and again another power increase that further increases how long the 28mph speed can be sustained, its evident enough in content creation already produced for the world to see. Is it not obvious that has continued to spur conversation? Our discussion does not increase that exposure, petitions from Karens do given the ammunition…

That's no one ...... Zero ...... Nada ..... Do I need to find more languages to get the message across ?

— Yet…. As for languages maybe try to grasp English first, even the French guy understands our conversation and concerns. It’s almost like your emphasis is sponsor driven…

Whilst I'm happy for people to raise concerns. How long do we have to keep reading threads that drone on about this tampering nonsense ? Is 2 years not enough ?

Easy don’t read them or even open them, unfortunately the problem with forum environment is separating wheat from chaff particularly for technical purposes as usually there are always spotty little teenagers with inputs of no more value than the average troll brand devotees…

BTW don’t expect a response.

 

[Astro66]

Mate …. Doesn’t sound like it!

Because you've been bleating the same thing for 2 years. The laws are crystal clear. You just won't accept them.

Avinox made the required changes 2 years ago to comply with Anti-tampering. You think they should go further. You are entitled to your opinion. But it's exactly that. An opinion.

Literally every regulator in the world disagrees with you, and says they have done enough. And guess what. It's their opinion that matters.

And lastly. FFS. Can we fix the deliberately Non Compliant sellers of those E-Moto's before we try and tighten up laws around compliant EMTBs. How about you campaign on fixing the Illegal stuff first ? Or would that not suit your narrative ?

All the clearly illegal ebike crap going on and you want to focus on the legal stuff. Then you wonder why I'm unsupportive ?

 

[Fangs2k]

Because you've been bleating the same thing for 2 years. The laws are crystal clear. You just won't accept them.

I fully accept the laws in place, and I comply with them, none of my e-bikes are de-restricted, how about yours?

Just over in the M2S rattle thread (another thread you’re hyper engaged in) you’ve got somebody saying (and I salute their honesty) that the main reason they got an Avinox bike was the ease with which they can be de-restricted. Avinox could stop that, but so far they choose not to and we both know why.

Avinox made the required changes 2 years ago to comply with Anti-tampering. You think they should go further. You are entitled to your opinion. But it's exactly that. An opinion.

They changed very little in any meaningful way, owners can still de-restrict the bike as easily as they can use a VPN for accessing internet content normally unavailable in their country of residence. My 12 year old daughter can use a VPN, it’s not rocket science.

Literally every regulator in the world disagrees with you, and says they have done enough. And guess what. It's their opinion that matters.

You do dress some rubbish up as fact, how on earth would you know that ‘every regulator in the world disagrees with me’? And on what? That I think that all bikes should comply with the regulations in place for the country they’re sold in? Can’t see them disagreeing with me there. Here in the UK is all I’m concerned about, I speak from a UK perspective and I’m an advocate for maintaining my current trail access regardless of the power wars. You might not care about that, and why should you, your focus should be on Australia and never mind what I’m posting on a UK forum.

And lastly. FFS. Can we fix the deliberately Non Compliant sellers of those E-Moto's before we try and tighten up laws around compliant EMTBs. How about you campaign on fixing the Illegal stuff first ? Or would that not suit your narrative ?

Clearly not lastly, but why is it either or? Why shouldn’t it be both at the same time? Legal e-biking is mixed up with illegal e-biking like it or not, they are indivisible in the eyes of some and communication and engagement is required, not the donning of blinkers and the insertion of ear plugs.

UK authorities and police are taking action against illegal e-bikes, as you’d expect, but regulators (or more likely the public and their elected representatives) are watching and every tick up in power and speed is another nail readied. I’m guessing you’ve never ridden in the UK nor are familiar with our trail access issues, I have and it’s that I’m speaking on. Creeping regulation is exactly what happened with drones and model aircraft, manufacturers should be engaging with regulators, not trying to outfox them.

All the clearly illegal ebike crap going on and you want to focus on the legal stuff. Then you wonder why I'm unsupportive ?

Just to be clear, I don’t give an S whether you’re supportive or not, and what you think is irrelevant to me here in the UK.

 

[Onetime]

Drones if they’re properly restricted in line with the current regs don’t, aircraft don’t generally fly below 400ft (take off and landing phases excepted of course, which is why drones shouldn’t be flown near airports) which is where all civil drones should be.

I think your views quite naturally are formed by your attitude to risk, you see drones as risky so are fine with regulation but you don’t see e-bikes in the same way, which is understandable.

Incidentally, the US (and elsewhere) have introduced something called ‘Remote ID’ where the location of anybody flying a drone can be located via an App, not just by law enforcement but by any citizen. Things can and do get out of hand…

That’s because, as already mentioned, drones could be used for spying. That’s why you have the regulations on drones. EMTB’s, not really a tool that’s used for spying. Apples and oranges.

 

[Fangs2k]

That’s because, as already mentioned, drones could be used for spying. That’s why you have the regulations on drones. EMTB’s, not really a tool that’s used for spying. Apples and oranges.

Google Maps can be used for spying, there are other versions available with higher resolution, but hostile reconnaissance can be done with any number of methods including people.

The comparison point was made though, because as soon as drones became perceived as a risk to flight safety (noting that there were few properly documented cases of aircraft colliding with drones full stop) the resulting legislation was a ‘sledgehammer to crack a nut’ and ended up not only with flight restrictions for legal drones impacting on hobbyists who had nothing to do with legally flown RC models, it also led to what I think are quite draconian measures like Remote ID etc.

I feel we’re sleepwalking into something similar here if we’re not careful is all I’m saying, the e-bike industry needs to get its ducks in a row and work with governments & regulators wherever they have to. I was in at the ground floor and saw first hand what the CAA (aviation regulator here in the UK) dis on the back of safety, that went far further than it needed to after public consultation where all they heard was ‘I don’t like drones, ban them entirely please’.

There are lots of people here in the UK who think like that regarding e-mtbs on public trails, where we’re currently allowed to be on Class 1 bikes. We really don’t want to be in the place where the DfT feels they need to respond to public opinion and ‘do something’ about the ‘public menace’ that is e-bikes even if it’s not ‘us guys’ causing the problems.

I hope it never comes to that, I really do, but I’ve seen how it all works and I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years time as bikes get ever more powerful somebody in authority says ‘hang on, what’s happened here, how did this all get so sloppy?’…

 

[Brawwp]

Drones if they’re properly restricted in line with the current regs don’t, aircraft don’t generally fly below 400ft (take off and landing phases excepted of course, which is why drones shouldn’t be flown near airports) which is where all civil drones should be.

I think your views quite naturally are formed by your attitude to risk, you see drones as risky so are fine with regulation but you don’t see e-bikes in the same way, which is understandable.

Incidentally, the US (and elsewhere) have introduced something called ‘Remote ID’ where the location of anybody flying a drone can be located via an App, not just by law enforcement but by any citizen. Things can and do get out of hand…

Didn’t you say you’re a pilot? Helicopters can fly under 400. Uh just recently a certain helicopter flying under 300ft was hit by a giant airplane killing quite a few people. Also just recently a drone hit a scooper airplane in the palisades fires and a 737 in San Diego this year. There have also been many other drones that have hit planes.

Either way this is totally irrelevant imo. Drone does not equal bicycle.

 

[Fangs2k]

Didn’t you say you’re a pilot? Helicopters can fly under 400. Uh just recently a certain helicopter flying under 300ft was hit by a giant airplane killing quite a few people. Also just recently a drone hit a scooper airplane in the palisades fires and a 737 in San Diego this year. There have also been many other drones that have hit planes.

Either way this is totally irrelevant imo. Drone does not equal bicycle.

No, I said I worked in aviation, used to be civil, then police and now military. I’m familiar with both the incidents you mention, tragic.

I’m not trying to equate drones with e-bikes (note, not bicycles) but the relevance is that whilst here in the UK (and USA) they are regulated differently, the drone regs were the canary in the coal mine for what happens when you don’t self regulate adequately as an ‘industry’.

 

[Brawwp]

No, I said I worked in aviation, used to be civil, then police and now military. I’m familiar with both the incidents you mention, tragic.

I’m not trying to equate drones with e-bikes (note, not bicycles) but the relevance is that whilst here in the UK (and USA) they are regulated differently, the drone regs were the canary in the coal mine for what happens when you don’t self regulate adequately as an ‘industry’.

Give up the drone thing man. Google how many drones have hit planes. You being military should also know plenty about why drones have very strict regulations other than plane/helicopter strikes. This is irrelevant.

I hope you don’t lose your trail access because a legal e-bike gets derestricted. I know many people who have been riding derestricted Bosch bikes, specialized bikes, etc long before Avinox came out and thus far I haven’t heard of anyone getting pulled over and checked out. If there’s a motor, people will find a way to make it faster and you see that in every single sport and you always will.

 

[Fangs2k]

Give up the drone thing man. Google how many drones have hit planes. You being military should also know plenty about why drones have very strict regulations other than plane/helicopter strikes. This is irrelevant.

I hope you don’t lose your trail access because a legal e-bike gets derestricted. I know many people who have been riding derestricted Bosch bikes, specialized bikes, etc long before Avinox came out and thus far I haven’t heard of anyone getting pulled over and checked out. If there’s a motor, people will find a way to make it faster and you see that in every single sport and you always will.

It’s the regulations, and the way they developed, not the drones themselves that bears the comparison. At the time the CAA were introducing them there had been zero incidences involving private drones and aircraft, although an agricultural drone did hit one of our police helis once , or more accurately the other way around!

Of course since then, Ukraine kicked off and we’ve seen what drones can do apart from take pretty aerial photographs, so maybe they had foresight albeit all it’s really done has inconvenienced legal flyers, and it will be the same with e-biking.

For me, it boils down to the speed aspect, I don’t think power will get us kicked off trails it will be the speed aspect.

Having read the Avinox statement on pink bike about how the power doesn’t change the safety case, but rather the speed, it makes it all the more eyebrow raising for me that they haven’t closed the VPN loophole yet.

That said, NZ seems to get on just fine with a 45kmh assist limit, but the I guess they’re chilled about lots more things than just bikes.

Anyway, thanks for engaging in the discussion, genuinely appreciated.

 

[Ndanger]

Didn’t you say you’re a pilot? Helicopters can fly under 400. Uh just recently a certain helicopter flying under 300ft was hit by a giant airplane killing quite a few people. Also just recently a drone hit a scooper airplane in the palisades fires and a 737 in San Diego this year. There have also been many other drones that have hit planes.

Either way this is totally irrelevant imo. Drone does not equal bicycle.

When flying a single engine high performance complex airplane between islands along a coastline where I live, it is rare that I had been above 500 ft. Interestingly I live at 750ft elevation about a mile from the shoreline as the crow flies. Occasionally when i have guests that fly drones, they seem to like to fly level to the shoreline from our location completely out of visual range. "yikes"

 

[Astro66]

They changed very little in any meaningful way, owners can still de-restrict the bike as easily as they can use a VPN for accessing internet content normally unavailable in their country of residence. My 12 year old daughter can use a VPN, it’s not rocket science.

Bosch can be de-restricted very simply. So can Shimano. But we cannot discuss de-restriction outside the de-restriction area, or you'll get another thread shut down ....... again. The thread is about anti-tampering compliance with EN15914 , and Avinox comply. Even in Britain. Get this through your head.

This drone and aircraft path you are taking is absurd. Bicycles remain on the ground in contact with the owner 100% of the time. They are not remotely related when coming to compliance.

Clearly not lastly, but why is it either or?

Because when you focus on rubbish like things that are legal. The focus and resources are taken away from the illegal stuff. We are struggling to get the illegal ebikes out of circulation. Let's focus our resources there. Not on compliant EMTBs.

The kids killing themselves on E-bikes are not riding $10,000 EMTBs. They are riding completely illegal, cheap, throttle driven, motorbike styled E-Moto's.

If you want to save riding areas, and get the negativity out of the media. This needs to be dealt with. Not legal EMTBs, being ridden by old men with 30 years riding experience.

This is the problem with people like yourself. You want perfection, and nothing else is acceptable. Then you wonder why no one tries to appease you at all, and you spend your days moaning on Social Media, that governing bodies are dumb.

Governing bodies are not dumb. They are a requirement of a civilised society. Without them. There would be kaos. You must respect them and not try to undermine them, like you are doing. You are not a certified authority, so get over yourself.

 

[n2o_spark]

Giant bikes in Aus are compliant with anti tampering. Unfortunately they're probably doing the 'best' out of any manufacturer at being compliant.
If the system thinks you've tampered with it, it will brick the motor. The only solution being to buy a new one at $1400AUD +
Australian consumer law agrees with Giant's position and will not back the consumer in this case either.
I don't know of any other manufacturer that goes to this length to comply with the EU standard.
Is this a good thing? Well if nothing else, it's getting people to write to the law makers to have the law amended?

 

[Astro66]

Without discussing tampering methods. Many of the tampering methods, like Shimano, revolve around region selection. So perhaps Giant have only one configuration, so all regions get the same configuration, thus making tampering more difficult.

The problem arises when you sell a product direct to the public, but requires different configuration, dependant on the region it is being sold into.

The anti-tampering regulation in EN15194 requires that this cannot be done from the bike or App. Which it cannot, unless you install a 3rd party software and follow a very detailed prescribed method of tampering, as is the case for Shimano.

 

[Fangs2k]

Bosch can be de-restricted very simply. So can Shimano. But we cannot discuss de-restriction outside the de-restriction area, or you'll get another thread shut down ....... again. The thread is about anti-tampering compliance with EN15914 , and Avinox comply. Even in Britain. Get this through your head.

This drone and aircraft path you are taking is absurd. Bicycles remain on the ground in contact with the owner 100% of the time. They are not remotely related when coming to compliance.

Because when you focus on rubbish like things that are legal. The focus and resources are taken away from the illegal stuff. We are struggling to get the illegal ebikes out of circulation. Let's focus our resources there. Not on compliant EMTBs.

The kids killing themselves on E-bikes are not riding $10,000 EMTBs. They are riding completely illegal, cheap, throttle driven, motorbike styled E-Moto's.

If you want to save riding areas, and get the negativity out of the media. This needs to be dealt with. Not legal EMTBs, being ridden by old men with 30 years riding experience.

This is the problem with people like yourself. You want perfection, and nothing else is acceptable. Then you wonder why no one tries to appease you at all, and you spend your days moaning on Social Media, that governing bodies are dumb.

Governing bodies are not dumb. They are a requirement of a civilised society. Without them. There would be kaos. You must respect them and not try to undermine them, like you are doing. You are not a certified authority, so get over yourself.

Whoosh…. It’s a complex subject, you clearly don’t get it, or don’t want to discuss it sensibly, so please don’t and just ignore and move on.

 

[Astro66]

It’s a complex subject,

Nah mate, it isn't. You want it to be complex to fit your narrative. But what's complex about following the regulatory bodies direction ? It literally couldn't be simpler !

or don’t want to discuss it sensibly,

Is that internet speak for, "Agree with me", Then you are being sensible ? Welcome to the real world Sunshine ....... No Participation Trophies here ..........

 

[Fangs2k]

Nah mate, it isn't. You want it to be complex to fit your narrative. But what's complex about following the regulatory bodies direction ? It literally couldn't be simpler !

Stepping over the patronising patois for a minute, you want it to be simple, bit unfortunately for you it isn’t, and time will bear that out.

And It’s not a narrative, it’s called an opinion, same as yours.

Is that internet speak for, "Agree with me", Then you are being sensible ? Welcome to the real world Sunshine ....... No Participation Trophies here ..........

No, it’s internet speak for if you can’t engage in a civil manner then please don’t.

 

[Astro66]

and time will bear that out.

Fine. When it happens. Get back to me. Otherwise, I implore all to quote the EN15194 compliance of their EMTB when discussing Land Use with any governing authority. It's what I do. And it is always recieved positively.

And the last thing you do is quote Social Media opinions. Even if ignoring their opinions may hurt their feelings .....

 

[Fangs2k]

Otherwise, I implore all to quote the EN15194 compliance of their EMTB when discussing Land Use with any governing authority. It's what I do. And it is always recieved positively.

Don’t forget to tell them that they aren’t compliant once they’re (easily) de-restricted.

As somebody who has previously said that ‘I de-restrict all my e-bikes’ do you also mention that and are ‘they’ still all positive?

 

[Astro66]

As somebody who has previously said that ‘I de-restrict all my e-bikes’ do you also mention that and are ‘they’ still all positive?

What part of "We cannot discuss de-restriction here", do you not get ? You really are a piece of work. <shakes head>

Create a thread in the de-restricted area. And I'll happily discuss it. Otherwise keep to EN15194 Anti-tampering compliance and we can keep going at it.

 

[Fangs2k]

What part of "We cannot discuss de-restriction here", do you not get ? You really are a piece of work. <shakes head>

Oh the ‘we cannot discuss that here’ position, quelle surprise, and how convenient. It’s central to the point raised in the OP.

You can’t be in a thread arguing that your Avinox bikes are fully compliant with EN15194:2017 on one hand whilst not speaking about the very thing you say you do that makes them non-compliant on the other?

Don’t remove the assist limit and they’re compliant, it’s pretty simple and no argument from me if that’s the case.

And quit with the insults, I’d suggest that rather than do that you should argue from a less disingenuous position, especially if you’re going to make obsequious comments like “I implore all to quote the EN15194 compliance of their EMTB when discussing Land Use with any governing authority. It's what I do.”

 

[Astro66]

You can’t be in a thread arguing that your Avinox bikes are fully compliant with EN15194:2017 on one hand whilst not speaking about the very thing you say you do that makes them non-compliant on the other?

Listen. I'm not sure if you are being deliberately thick, but it's not my rule. It's the forum rule. The thread will be locked if we start talking about how different motors are de-restricted.

So keep to the topic of EN15194 compliance, or create a thread where we can talk about de-restriction. .

Here's some more evidence of Amflows Anti-Tampering EN15194 compliance in Australia, Europe and the UK.

Amflow PX - FAQ - Amflow (Deutschland)

Sieh dir die Amflow PX FAQ an, um mehr über das Produkt zu erfahren. Das Amflow PX vereint 150 N·m Spitzendrehmoment und 1500 W Spitzenleistung in der kompakten Avinox M2S Antriebseinheit. Unterstützt durch einen 700-Wh-Premium-Akku mit hoher Kapazität, liefert es eine neue Antwort auf die...

www.amflowbikes.com

 

[Petrex]

It's not about compliance.

"Bleat, bleat, bleat !
It's too easy !
It's too cheap !
I had to spend $150 on it for my bike.
The app for Special Bikes cost me £10 !!!
Bleat, bleat, bleat ..."

 

[Fangs2k]

Listen. I'm not sure if you are being deliberately thick, but it's not my rule. It's the forum rule. The thread will be locked if we start talking about how different motors are de-restricted.

So keep to the topic of EN15194 compliance, or create a thread where we can talk about de-restriction. .

Here's some more evidence of Amflows Anti-Tampering EN15194 compliance in Australia, Europe and the UK.

View attachment 185358
View attachment 185359

Amflow PX - FAQ - Amflow (Deutschland)

Sieh dir die Amflow PX FAQ an, um mehr über das Produkt zu erfahren. Das Amflow PX vereint 150 N·m Spitzendrehmoment und 1500 W Spitzenleistung in der kompakten Avinox M2S Antriebseinheit. Unterstützt durch einen 700-Wh-Premium-Akku mit hoher Kapazität, liefert es eine neue Antwort auf die...

www.amflowbikes.com

You can’t quit with the insults…

So the very thing that impacts compliance we can’t talk about? Righto.

It’s you saying you’re speaking with land owners and governing bodies crowing about compliance whilst withholding information that means your bike/s aren’t.

Compliance is like pregnancy, you can’t be a little bit compliant.

 

[Astro66]

So the very thing that impacts compliance we can’t talk about? Righto.

Yes. You have brought up "Ease Of De-restriction." We cannot talk about the ease of de-restriction without detailing how to de-restrict. So I am not going to do that, in this area of the forum.

Remember. You are the one who called regulators dumb, whilst I said we need to respect them. And I am doing that.

information that means your bike/s aren’t.

Not sure what I'm doing has got to do with Avinox compliance. But my EMTBs are 100% EN15194 compliant on Land Owners property. I'm not giving any more details. If you don't like that. The real world says "Hello" again.

You can’t quit with the insults…

You are asking me to do something you must know I cannot do. Give me a good word to describe that, and I'll use it.

 

[Fangs2k]

We cannot talk about the ease of de-restriction without detailing how to de-restrict. So I am not going to do that, in this area of the forum.

I’m not asking you to describe how to de-restrict, just acknowledge that it’s easy to do, detailed in the hallowed de-restriction area on this very forum and it is pertinent to motor compliance.

 

[Astro66]

I’m not asking you to describe how to de-restrict, just acknowledge that it’s easy to do, detailed in the hallowed de-restriction area on this very forum and it is pertinent to motor compliance.

Sure. Bafang is easiest. Shimano is next easiest. Bosch is quite simple. All these have 3rd parties who will do it for you. So super simple.

I know of no 3rd party who will do it for you with Avinox. There was a local 3rd party who was doing Amflow bikes. But Amflow shut them down, threatening legal action. So I would consider it the most difficult.

Thus, keeping on topic and not breaching forum rules, Avinox would be the most Anti-Tampering compliant out of the 4 brands listed, IMO.

BTW. In Bosch's defence, I have heard of them taking legal action against 3rd parties offering tampering services. I was contacted personally by one. I'll give no further details. But clearly a move to stay EN15194 compliant.

 

[Valaminium]

I’m not asking you to describe how to de-restrict, just acknowledge that it’s easy to do, detailed in the hallowed de-restriction area on this very forum and it is pertinent to motor compliance.

Does this remind you of fight club yet? I think we’re dealing with bots… or similar to 77th brigade, distraction and wargrade propaganda capabilities… if they are human they’ll soon be the walking dead described by end of days scripture!!

 

[Valaminium]

Does this remind you of fight club yet? I think we’re dealing with bots… or similar to 77th brigade, distraction and wargrade propaganda capabilities… if they are human they’ll soon be the walking dead described by end of days scripture!!

Or the opening scene in Bladerunner interview for sentience!!

 

[Fangs2k]

Sure. Bafang is easiest. Shimano is next easiest. Bosch is quite simple. All these have 3rd parties who will do it for you. So super simple.

I know of no 3rd party who will do it for you with Avinox. There was a local 3rd party who was doing Amflow bikes. But Amflow shut them down, threatening legal action. So I would consider it the most difficult.

Thus, keeping on topic and not breaching forum rules, Avinox would be the most Anti-Tampering compliant out of the 4 brands listed.

Everything else is simpler than using a VPN to place yourself somewhere else in the world?

Funny old place sometimes.

 

[Astro66]

Everything else is simpler than using a VPN to place yourself somewhere else in the world?

What's simpler than having someone else do it. If these brands were serious about anti-tampering, they would shut the 3rd parties down like Amflow did.

I would love to describe how easy it is with these other brands. But I cannot. And neither should you.