Could Giant be up for a class action?

[Regular_Michael]

Hey folks,


I just read this post on the Giant site, E-Bike Tampering Policy | Giant Bicycles New Zealand

I would have though it’s a little illegal to deploy software / firmware to a privately owned e-bike disabling it or putting it in limp mode without the owner’s consent. Forcing them to return it back to it’s place of purchase making and then making them pay to have the bike restored to working order.

What a consumer does with a product they purchased is their own choosing, what right does Giant or anyone else have to dictate how their products are used (indefinitely) irrespective if the product has been modified or tampered with?

What are peoples thought on this topic, should any e bike manufacturer have the ability to shut down their product if it's modified?

FYI - My bike doesn't have this issue as I refuse to deploy the latest update.

 

[Rubinstein]

Hey folks,


I just read this post on the Giant site, E-Bike Tampering Policy | Giant Bicycles New Zealand

I would have though it’s a little illegal to deploy software / firmware to a privately owned e-bike disabling it or putting it in limp mode without the owner’s consent. Forcing them to return it back to it’s place of purchase making and then making them pay to have the bike restored to working order.

What a consumer does with a product they purchased is their own choosing, what right does Giant or anyone else have to dictate how their products are used (indefinitely) irrespective if the product has been modified or tampered with?

What are peoples thought on this topic, should any e bike manufacturer have the ability to shut down their product if it's modified?

FYI - My bike doesn't have this issue as I refuse to deploy the latest update.

My bike has many modifications but I’ve never felt the need to de restrict the motor, it’s fast enough, so I’m ok with the “don’t touch the motor” approach. However, are Giant saying if I change my handle bars this equates to tampering? The following passage suggests this, so clarification is required as to what constitutes “any form of tampering”.

“Because our bikes are designed and produced as they are, we cannot guarantee the correct functionality of the bike and its components after tampering has occurred. Therefore, any form of tampering automatically voids the warranty on all E-bikes and components within Giant, Liv, and Momentum brands.”

I think if you void your warranty by fitting a more comfortable saddle Giants dealers will have some issues.

 

[Dax]

are Giant saying if I change my handle bars this equates to tampering? The following passage suggests this, so clarification is required as to what constitutes “any form of tampering”.

Going on their definition of tampering on that page, you’re ok to change the bars:

What is tampering?

In the ‘tuning’ market nowadays there are several ways of tampering with your bike. Mechanisms such as tuning dongles or chip tuning give users a quick way of changing the maximum speed of your bike. This can damage the motor and e-components of your bike beyond repair.

 

[#lazy]

Going on their definition of tampering on that page, you’re ok to change the bars:

What is tampering?

In the ‘tuning’ market nowadays there are several ways of tampering with your bike. Mechanisms such as tuning dongles or chip tuning give users a quick way of changing the maximum speed of your bike. This can damage the motor and e-components of your bike beyond repair.

Sorry for being blunt but what a load of baloney .Having your bike chipped doesn’t mean you’re gunna go 40mph for an hour which could damage some parts , you’re more likely to just go a few mph faster for a few seconds every now and then which will have absolutely no damaging effects on the motor .
It’s not illegal to chip an ebike so giant and Bosch are wrong and that’s why I’ll never buy them . Who the fxxk do these companies think they are

 

[RustyIron]

I would have though it’s a little illegal to deploy software

Yes, you should hire a lawyer so you can force companies to make products according to your specifications. Don't buy a bike from a company that make the product you want. Buy from a company that make a product you dislike, and then use the courts so you can make them change and get some money.

 

[cozzy]

Quite agree. I would do research though before buying a brand to ensure it can be easily delimited.
Specialized comes top of the list for me. Over 4 years with zero problems.
I really CBA with all this limp home foolishness other manufacturers use.

 

[steve_sordy]

Saying that they are perfect as they are puts Giant on loose ground.

Identical bikes are sold in the USA and Europe. Except that the bikes for sale in Europe are limited by law to 25 kph (15.5 mph) and although I don't know the reason, in the USA they are limited to 20 mph (32.1 kph). But the thing is that they can't both be perfect! If it is safe and "perfect" to have a 20mph limit for USA bikes then it must be safe (if not legal) for the same bike sold in Europe. Why do Giant get their knickers in a knot if someone rode their Europe bike at the USA limited speed.

I have had ebikes since Jan 2019 and I have never chipped a motor nor fitted any kind of defeat device, but one that kept assisting up to 20 mph would be tempting.

However, putting on my sensible trousers for a moment.... One way to look at it is that the bike manufacturers are trying to show to the legislators in Europe (and New Zealand and all their other markets) that they are trying to obey the law of the land. I guess the concern is to prevent the legislators acting to restrict the ebike market more than it already is. You could argue that they are acting on our behalf. But what they are really doing is trying to prevent their market from being restricted. I wouldn't be surprised if the legislators hadn't had a word with the relevant bike industry body to be more proactive at preventing chipping. Giant are just being heavy handed in how they are going about it.

 

[Sophie777]

What a consumer does with a product they purchased is their own choosing, what right does Giant or anyone else have to dictate how their products are used (indefinitely) irrespective if the product has been modified or tampered with?

Because tampering with an e-bike (motor, battery) is a risk factor for e-bike fires.
So I doubt there could be any case for a class action.

 

[Regular_Michael]

WOW - Some of these responses are great although a little off topic.

FYI - I did get legal advice for shits and giggles - under Australian consumer law Giant are in breach, they actually admit they are in breach via their site by stating that they are impairing their products post purchase if they are modified.

It was also suggested that I reach out to the ACCC - Australia has strict guidelines when it comes to this stuff.

Simply put, from a consumer perspective - no manufacturer has the right to remotely disable or impair a product post purchase - they can void the products warrant but no more.

So at what point in time did the eMTB community think that this is acceptable behaviour?

 

[Regular_Michael]

Saying that they are perfect as they are puts Giant on loose ground.

Identical bikes are sold in the USA and Europe. Except that the bikes for sale in Europe are limited by law to 25 kph (15.5 mph) and although I don't know the reason, in the USA they are limited to 20 mph (32.1 kph). But the thing is that they can't both be perfect! If it is safe and "perfect" to have a 20mph limit for USA bikes then it must be safe (if not legal) for the same bike sold in Europe. Why do Giant get their knickers in a knot if someone rode their Europe bike at the USA limited speed.

I have had ebikes since Jan 2019 and I have never chipped a motor nor fitted any kind of defeat device, but one that kept assisting up to 20 mph would be tempting.

However, putting on my sensible trousers for a moment.... One way to look at it is that the bike manufacturers are trying to show to the legislators in Europe (and New Zealand and all their other markets) that they are trying to obey the law of the land. I guess the concern is to prevent the legislators acting to restrict the ebike market more than it already is. You could argue that they are acting on our behalf. But what they are really doing is trying to prevent their market from being restricted. I wouldn't be surprised if the legislators hadn't had a word with the relevant bike industry body to be more proactive at preventing chipping. Giant are just being heavy handed in how they are going about it.

Mate - I love your perspective and this makes the most sense as to why restrictions should be put in place. e-Bike manufacturers showing that they respect the local laws.

The issue I take with stance is that you can still walk into a retail electrical store and buy an e-Scooter or electric skateboard with no speed restrictions. Riding an e-vehicle in the state where I live is heavily policed and if you exceed the limit you're fined.

Seems like e-bikes have a law that's only being upheld by manufacturers and all other e-vehicles are free to do what they please.

I know this as I build custom electric mountain boards here in Australia - ZFG esk8 Electric mountainboards Melbourne BASED

 

[Ark]

Bosch do the same.
It's not their responsibility to ensure the motors are road legal... you don't see car manufactures limiting cars to motorway speeds... you don't see motorbikes doing the same...

there's no speed limits if your riding on private land anyway...

It's up to the rider or driver to obey the law
they probably do it in the hopes of pleasing governments and maybe getting some of those tax incentives that made elon so rich

 

[rjd]

you don't see car manufactures limiting cars to motorway speeds... you don't see motorbikes doing the same...

And yet riders of 'pushbikes' are not tested or licenced..

 

[Ark]

And yet riders of 'pushbikes' are not tested or licenced..

so should Sram and Shimano only release gear combinations that allow 16.5mph max for europe? and 20mph max for aus and USA? why stop at artificially limiting ebikes?

 

[rjd]

The rules tend to be around ebikes not gears. A cyclist is in general restricted to the same speed laws as other vehicles even if not aware of it or how fast they are going.

Anyhow I get why manufacturers have to limit this but I dont get them restricting changes by owners of the bikes if they want to, warranty aside its none of their business really

 

[Kingerz]

A warranty should be voided if the buyer has wrecked the bike with bodgy 'fixes', but NO WAY is a stealth nerf acceptable. This just confirms the concept of never doing an update to the firmware.

 

[RustyIron]

If it is safe and "perfect" to have a 20mph limit for USA bikes then it must be safe (if not legal) for the same bike sold in Europe.

C'mon, Steve. Everyone knows Yanks have faster bikes because Yanks are better riders. Sheesh!

Ok... there's Remy. That boy has some sick skillz.

 

[Regular_Michael]

I created a petition for this. I also intend on taking this as par as possible though the various Australian legislative bodies ACL and the ACCC.

https://chng.it/xhTdQHp4dL

 

[Chairman]

Is there anything more dangerous than having your bike hit the limiter just as you are popping off a gap jump?

 

[sehah]

was climbing about 5000ft a week ago. last 2 miles and 800ft climb or so left the bike kinda stopped pushing. wasnt dead, but wasnt pushing. i managed to pedal it up and come down the other side. turned out speed sensor died, lbs put their own magnets up against it and nothing. now they gotta send it in so giant can clear the code. utterly ridiculous.

 

[BushLevo]

Agree wholeheartedly. Giant would have the right to void the warranty if they found evidence of derestricting, but no way should they be able to get away with deliberately nobbling your bike and then force you to pay unspecified charges to retore it to factory condition. Probably a contravention of the Victorian Fair Trading Act (I'm in the same state as you Michael)

 

[Planemo]

Totally out of order to remotely nuke something especially given it could well be being used legally, derestricted on private land. Reminds me of a period in my electric unicycle group when a load of guys bought direct from China, saving £500 on a £4k wheel and the manufacturers stunned the lot via geotagging the phones when setting up the app with the wheel (a necessary step). Bastards.

Edit: just read the link and it doesn't actually appear that Giant are nuking anything, instead simply saying that if the bike is tampered with it will go into limp mode and require factory servicing to reset it. This isn't unlike the Bosch setup on most bikes albeit you get 3 limp events before needing factory reset.

In any event I think I got the wrong end of the stick and it's certainly not remote disabling as I thought.

 

[OldnSlow]

Saying that they are perfect as they are puts Giant on loose ground.

Identical bikes are sold in the USA and Europe. Except that the bikes for sale in Europe are limited by law to 25 kph (15.5 mph) and although I don't know the reason, in the USA they are limited to 20 mph (32.1 kph). But the thing is that they can't both be perfect! If it is safe and "perfect" to have a 20mph limit for USA bikes then it must be safe (if not legal) for the same bike sold in Europe. Why do Giant get their knickers in a knot if someone rode their Europe bike at the USA limited speed.

I have had ebikes since Jan 2019 and I have never chipped a motor nor fitted any kind of defeat device, but one that kept assisting up to 20 mph would be tempting.

However, putting on my sensible trousers for a moment.... One way to look at it is that the bike manufacturers are trying to show to the legislators in Europe (and New Zealand and all their other markets) that they are trying to obey the law of the land. I guess the concern is to prevent the legislators acting to restrict the ebike market more than it already is. You could argue that they are acting on our behalf. But what they are really doing is trying to prevent their market from being restricted. I wouldn't be surprised if the legislators hadn't had a word with the relevant bike industry body to be more proactive at preventing chipping. Giant are just being heavy handed in how they are going about it.

A small but important point about Giant's concern for New Zealand's sovereign law. We have no speed limit applying to e-bikes in New Zealand. No limit at all. Bikes are limited in theory to 250 watts output (nominal) but there are no speed restrictions. My partners 2019 Giant e-Revolt is limited to 45kph (28mph in the old money) while my Look e765 gets asthma around 25kmh. Both are legal. It always strikes me as unjust when she gets the urge for a drag race . Which goes to first your point about speed limits applying to the same bike in different jurisdictions Steve.

 

[steve_sordy]

A small but important point about Giant's concern for New Zealand's sovereign law. We have no speed limit applying to e-bikes in New Zealand. No limit at all. Bikes are limited in theory to 250 watts output (nominal) but there are no speed restrictions. My partners 2019 Giant e-Revolt is limited to 45kph (28mph in the old money) while my Look e765 gets asthma around 25kmh. Both are legal. It always strikes me as unjust when she gets the urge for a drag race . Which goes to first your point about speed limits applying to the same bike in different jurisdictions Steve.

Just to ensure no misunderstanding... By using the phrase "limited by law .." I was referring to the level at which the pedal assist from the motor must stop (I could have been clearer at the time). My bike and I can go as fast as gravity and my leg power can provide. However, when riding on public roads I must obey the same speed limit as all other road vehicles.

 

[billwarwick]

Just to ensure no misunderstanding... By using the phrase "limited by law .." I was referring to the level at which the pedal assist from the motor must stop (I could have been clearer at the time). My bike and I can go as fast as gravity and my leg power can provide. However, when riding on public roads I must obey the same speed limit as all other road vehicles.

Just to ensure no misunderstanding... By using the phrase "limited by law .." I was referring to the level at which the pedal assist from the motor must stop (I could have been clearer at the time). My bike and I can go as fast as gravity and my leg power can provide. However, when riding on public roads I must obey the same speed limit as all other road vehicles.

I’m probably wrong, but I always thought it was manafacturers covering their arse in case of litigation, especially in the US. Say for instance someone on a derestricted bike killed a pedestrian. Bosch, for example, May be deemed as liable as the rider because they ‘allowed’ their motor to be altered. They are therefore trying to avoid being sued by putting the measures in place. No idea if this is true, but a bloke in the pub told me, so it must be right

 

[steve_sordy]

@billwarwick "Trying to avoid being sued .." has the ring of truth about it.

 

[#lazy]

Another load of baloney, do you see car manufacturers being sued because someone got hurt by a speeding car ?

 

[steve_sordy]

I wonder if the bike manufacturers have, ever so subtly of course, been threatened by the legislators?

 

[billwarwick]

I wonder if the bike manufacturers have, ever so subtly of course, been threatened by the legislators?

Maybe Rob knows someone in the trade who could explain it ?

 

[Regular_Michael]

It's been a minute - So if you live in Australia and your bike is stock or tampered with - Giant legally have no grounds to disable the bike. If the bike has been tampered with they can refuse warranty repair, this is within their right although they have to provide evidence of any tampering.

On return of any repaired bike the owner has the right to modify as they see fit as it's within their ownership rights.

If they disable the bike then this it's in violation of Australian Consumer Law (ACL) - Completions and consumer ACT 2012 Section 23 - Unfair Contract Terms.

This was confirmed through the case I have submitted to the ACL and the individuals that I spoke to. They also stated that they will be investigating the matter further with Giant.

Now that they have been made aware, anyone facing issue with Giant (And live in Australia) you should contact ACL and raise a case with ACL.

Hope this information helps some folks out there.

Cheers
Mike

 

[RustyIron]

I'm still not convinced that Giant secretly came out and disabled your bike. Is that what you think they did? How did they get into your garage? Did you leave the door unlocked? Do they have ninjas that can walk through walls? Or is this a matter of your bike failing after you made unauthorized modifications? I suspect the latter, as you haven't really stated all the facts that led to your unfortunate predicament. I've learned that when people leave out important details, they're usually trying to conceal the truth.

Do you hope that the courts compel manufacturers to write software that is compatible with every half-baked hack that every cowboy dreams up? I really don't think that's going to happen.