Check your linkage bearings

[Paul Mac]

Just gave my 2019 levos rear shock a service, when I removed the shock was surprised to find the rear triangle was not moving smoothly and was notchy.
I say surprised because it could not be felt when riding.
I then took out the main pivot bolt to see if the bearings were running freely.
I couldn't move them with my hand, they were seized solid.
I then took out all the bolts holding the rear triangle together, and 8 out of 10 of them were solid!
I had to free them all off with wd40 and re grease them.
I got them just in time as no damage had been caused to the pivot bolts or frame.
But all this wet weather riding certainly takes its toll.

 

[steve_sordy]

This happened to my Norco Sight 1. OK, not an ebike; but this is not an ebike problem, it's a bearing sealing design problem. This bearings all needed replacing every 8 months (on average). Never happened on my Whyte T130, so it can be done!

 

[Rusty]

Far too many low grade components are used in bike manufacturing. Considering that bikes are double the price they should be that is total BS.
When you are designing something relatively light-weigh you have to use better quality components to ensure decent lifespans.

 

[Jaygam]

Acf50

 

[Paul Mac]

Acf50

I've got Acf50, how are you applying it to the bearings?

 

[rodomotion]

food grade bearings.

 

[Gary]

Far too many low grade components are used in bike manufacturing. Considering that bikes are double the price they should be that is total BS.
When you are designing something relatively light-weigh you have to use better quality components to ensure decent lifespans.

what components exactly are you talking about?
His frame is fitted with sealed cartridge bearings just the same as almost all FS mtb frames are.
they ALL eventually fail/wear out. and especially quickly if water ingress has occurred.
The fact that all his pivot hardware was seized sort of gives a clue as to how bad that ingress has been.
I don't think you can really blame any of this on the quality of the individual components (unless you know something we don't)

With any well manufactured frame (Good QC, welds/build in line etc.) with good pivot design built to high tolerances (bearing bore, bearings and hardware) and good sealing what ensures decent lifespan of the pivot bearings/hardware is good maintenance and care. eg. not washing grease out of bearings, periodically checking bolt torque, and condition of bearings etc.

What the OP highlights here IMO is the importance of once in a while checking over your shock/frame/pivots/bearings.

 

[Webike]

80% seized bearings after less than a year of riding seems absurd unless the bike was power washed or cleaned with aggressive detergents or solvents. Lucky that the bearings did not spin within the frame and damage the interference fit of the bearing. With this much damage to the swing-arm bearings I would worry that the wheel bearings would also be affected.

BTW, when you removed the rubber seal on the bearing to clean & grease it did it seem that the seal was still pliable and was there still any clean grease within the bearing race? Any water?

Also; Loc-tite does sell "Bearing Retainer" (609 series) in multiple densities if the interference fit in the frame has been compromised.
Glad you evidently found it in time.

 

[seamarsh]

The problem with pivot bearings is that they have very little rotation when is use so they tend to freeze up after a while.. I usually take apart my linkage and using the foam handle of some lock jaw pliers rotate the bearings for a minutes to get them loose again.. also if you repack it helps but don't over pack.

That being said unless the are truly frozen and bad..rusty, notchey etc, under load they probably are still moving, which is why you are not really feeling the effects of the not moving by hand.

I think this is why over the years some manufactures tried using bushings..

 

[Jaygam]

I've got Acf50, how are you applying it to the bearings?

Apply to the exterior of the bearings, it will repel moisture.

 

[Rusty]

what components exactly are you talking about?
His frame is fitted with sealed cartridge bearings just the same as almost all FS mtb frames are.
they ALL eventually fail/wear out. and especially quickly if water ingress has occurred.

Bearings in this particular instance. While manufacturers are using sealed bearings these days they are usually of the lowest grade possible. This is due to designers looking at a bearing spec and using their experience think that is good enough.
This is pretty much the same as when the Japanese broke into the dirt bike market in the 70's. In some countries guys were replacing bearings and seals on a monthly basis and elsewhere they would go a year or more. All conditions are not the same and building for the easiest or average conditions is just not good enough. They learned from this and started using stuff designed for much higher speed/load/water ingress - which resulted in much better reliability.
The cost difference actually less as the few pence spent upgrading is usually off-set by less warranty issues.

 

[seamarsh]

Bearings in this particular instance. While manufacturers are using sealed bearings these days they are usually of the lowest grade possible. This is due to designers looking at a bearing spec and using their experience think that is good enough.
This is pretty much the same as when the Japanese broke into the dirt bike market in the 70's. In some countries guys were replacing bearings and seals on a monthly basis and elsewhere they would go a year or more. All conditions are not the same and building for the easiest or average conditions is just not good enough. They learned from this and started using stuff designed for much higher speed/load/water ingress - which resulted in much better reliability.
The cost difference actually less as the few pence spent upgrading is usually off-set by less warranty issues.

Not santa cruz.. enduro bearings they use..

 

[Paul Mac]

80% seized bearings after less than a year of riding seems absurd unless the bike was power washed or cleaned with aggressive detergents or solvents. Lucky that the bearings did not spin within the frame and damage the interference fit of the bearing. With this much damage to the swing-arm bearings I would worry that the wheel bearings would also be affected.

BTW, when you removed the rubber seal on the bearing to clean & grease it did it seem that the seal was still pliable and was there still any clean grease within the bearing race? Any water?

Also; Loc-tite does sell "Bearing Retainer" (609 series) in multiple densities if the interference fit in the frame has been compromised.
Glad you evidently found it in time.

Yes the bearing seal was still pliable and come out easy enough, but there was no grease in the bearing, the races were just dirty and gray, no rust.
Once I had freed them up and the greased them they felt good, no notchy feeling and no play.
I only wash my bike with a light hose and use no detergent, just water. I then normally just the spray the joints with gt85.
I was wondering it the gt85 had managed to penetrate the bearing and dried it out, will stop doing this now and use acf50 instead.
I have been using the bike in some horrendous conditions recently though.
By the way the wheel bearings are perfect, I don't spray any gt85 on these as too near brakes.

 

[Gary]

Bearings in this particular instance. While manufacturers are using sealed bearings these days they are usually of the lowest grade possible. This is due to designers looking at a bearing spec and using their experience think that is good enough.
This is pretty much the same as when the Japanese broke into the dirt bike market in the 70's. In some countries guys were replacing bearings and seals on a monthly basis and elsewhere they would go a year or more. All conditions are not the same and building for the easiest or average conditions is just not good enough. They learned from this and started using stuff designed for much higher speed/load/water ingress - which resulted in much better reliability.
The cost difference actually less as the few pence spent upgrading is usually off-set by less warranty issues.

Which particular bearings do you have issue with Specialized specing?

 

[Gary]

I then normally just the spray the joints with gt85.

You realise this is pretty much the worst thing you could do?

 

[Rusty]

Which particular bearings do you have issue with Specialized specing?

Haven't pulled it apart to check, but based on previous bikes - just about every bearing is not up to what I consider appropriate specifications.
Judging from what I have heard I expect the crank bearings are one of the biggest offenders - same as with Shimano and Bosch. The argument that bigger bearings adds weight is not really correct and when weight is added it is probably so little it would not signify.

 

[Webike]

Evidently Gary is familiar with gt85 and although it's not a common stateside product, it probably contains carrier solvents which would degrade grease and not be good for the bearing.

Also, unlike "seamarsh" I would fill the pivot bearings with grease to avoid gaps which could allow water to collect...just my non-scientific opinion.

 

[Paul Mac]

You realise this is pretty much the worst thing you could do?

Well I definitely didn't.
The question has to be asked then, is what is the point of a product like gt85?
Because everywhere you would want to spray it after washing a bike, it would drive out grease?

 

[Paul Mac]

Just as a side, I realised I have not applied gt85 at all to the rear bearings that are by the rear axle, again because they are too close to the brakes.
These were among the worst seized, so I don't think I can completely blame the gt85.

 

[Gary]

Well I definitely didn't.
The question has to be asked then, is what is the point of a product like gt85?
Because everywhere you would want to spray it after washing a bike, it would drive out grease?

Gt85 is a cleaning solvent and a water displacer. It's never been sold as a lubricant. Use it on a rag to shine up your bikes paint finish after a wash. Or to purge water out of your chain before lubing but nothing much else really

 

[Gary]

Haven't pulled it apart to check, but based on previous bikes - just about every bearing is not up to what I consider appropriate specifications.
Judging from what I have heard I expect the crank bearings are one of the biggest offenders - same as with Shimano and Bosch. The argument that bigger bearings adds weight is not really correct and when weight is added it is probably so little it would not signify.

Sorry. But on the frame bearings front you're sort of talking rubbish. I replace many pivot bearings on FS frames each and every week. Generally speaking these days pretty much every frame pivot bearing chosen by manufacturers is of appropriate size, strength and quality for application. They are however wear parts and periodically need checking and replacing when required.
Motor bearings I agree.
And outboard BB bearings with one pathetic seal on a bike ridden in wet and shit daily and frequently washed forcefully with water is simply a poorly thought out design.

 

[randycpu]

So let me ask:
How many months / miles would be a good service interval to inspect / replace frame pivot bearings on a Turbo Levo?

 

[Paul Mac]

So let me ask:
How many months / miles would be a good service interval to inspect / replace frame pivot bearings on a Turbo Levo?

Well I got my bike last October, so rode it all through last winter.
I've covered about 3000 miles and as I said my bearings were seized but easily serviceable.
I foolishly waited a year, I reckon every 6 months and you wouldn't have a problem.

 

[brizi2003]

Yes the bearing seal was still pliable and come out easy enough, but there was no grease in the bearing, the races were just dirty and gray, no rust.
Once I had freed them up and the greased them they felt good, no notchy feeling and no play.
I only wash my bike with a light hose and use no detergent, just water. I then normally just the spray the joints with gt85.
I was wondering it the gt85 had managed to penetrate the bearing and dried it out, will stop doing this now and use acf50 instead.
I have been using the bike in some horrendous conditions recently though.
By the way the wheel bearings are perfect, I don't spray any gt85 on these as too near brakes.

I would say you shouldn't spray gt85 into the bearings as it will find its way in and displace the grease.

 

[Rusty]

Sorry. But on the frame bearings front you're sort of talking rubbish. I replace many pivot bearings on FS frames each and every week. Generally speaking these days pretty much every frame pivot bearing chosen by manufacturers is of appropriate size, strength and quality for application.

That is your opinion - stick to it if you like, but me, I prefer quality.
The bearings used by just about all cycle manufacturers are ABEC 1 - which is the lowest certifiable standard and often below that standard.
As a minimum I use ABEC 3 but prefer ABEC 5.

Reference:
ABEC 1 Approximately equal to ISO P0
ABEC 3 Approximately equal to ISO P6
ABEC 5 Approximately equal to ISO P5
ABEC 7 Approximately equal to ISO P4
ABEC 9 Approximately equal to ISO P2

For cycle application I prefer Stainless over Chrome steel. Even though Stainless is marginally softer it handles moisture much better.

And when it comes to seals - has to be LLU. They do have more drag than the 2RS which is the standard install (stands for 2 rubber seals). A suitable compromise could be LLB which has less contact area but not in my mind.

I accept your expectations and mine are probably miles apart. Years of preparing race motorcycles and sourcing better bearing and seal options has made me unforgiving when low-grade shit is foisted on me.

 

[Webike]

Would it be an adaquet occasional test of the bearing condition to release the pressure in the shock, with the rear wheel removed, and manipulate the swing arm thru it's travel while checking for smoothness and lack of sideplay? Could resistance or noise be detected? Never tried it and am curious.

 

[seamarsh]

That is your opinion - stick to it if you like, but me, I prefer quality.
The bearings used by just about all cycle manufacturers are ABEC 1 - which is the lowest certifiable standard and often below that standard.
As a minimum I use ABEC 3 but prefer ABEC 5.

Reference:
ABEC 1 Approximately equal to ISO P0
ABEC 3 Approximately equal to ISO P6
ABEC 5 Approximately equal to ISO P5
ABEC 7 Approximately equal to ISO P4
ABEC 9 Approximately equal to ISO P2

For cycle application I prefer Stainless over Chrome steel. Even though Stainless is marginally softer it handles moisture much better.

And when it comes to seals - has to be LLU. They do have more drag than the 2RS which is the standard install (stands for 2 rubber seals). A suitable compromise could be LLB which has less contact area but not in my mind.

I accept your expectations and mine are probably miles apart. Years of preparing race motorcycles and sourcing better bearing and seal options has made me unforgiving when low-grade shit is foisted on me.

Jesus dude you went deep super bearing nerd on us! Clearly no one outside of nasa has expectations such as yours.

 

[Rusty]

Jesus dude you went deep super bearing nerd on us! Clearly no one outside of nasa has expectations such as yours.

Meh - my mechanic used to swear at me for using ABEC 3 or throw things if I just bought stock shit ... learned to know what was what.

 

[Rusty]

Would it be an adaquet occasional test of the bearing condition to release the pressure in the shock, with the rear wheel removed, and manipulate the swing arm thru it's travel while checking for smoothness and lack of sideplay? Could resistance or noise be detected? Never tried it and am curious.

If you have a work stand - just disconnect the shock and move the swingarm through its travel.

 

[Gary]

So let me ask:
How many months / miles would be a good service interval to inspect / replace frame pivot bearings on a Turbo Levo?

I couldn't say. But...

The true answer is it depends how you ride it, how often you ride it, where you ride it, the conditions you ride it in, how you wash it, look after it and even who* you are.

*some riders will notice the slightest difference in bearings (play, smoothness, notchiness, knocking etc.) While others will blindly keep riding a bike with pivot bolts missing and bearings so fucked it's pretty much cornering like a flexibus

As Rusty says. The easiest/quickest method to check bearing/pivot condition is to simply remove one shock mount bolt and cycle the frame through it's rear travel, checking for notchiness and/or play.
if you are worried your next step is to simply remove each pivot fastener one at a time and check the condition of each bearing.