Canyon Grail

[Gyre]

I saw a neat internal 2 speed rear hub that can be used with standard cassettes for more gear range. I wonder if it would be compatible with the Grail? It's not cheap but it looks like it would be worth it.

Classified Powershift? If so, it's really promising but I can't get past the price.

FWIW I was doing ~33mph at 105 rpm today (stock gearing and 650b wheels).

 

[Gyre]

Okay, I did a brief ride around a couple neighborhoods yesterday and a ~3 hour ride up to Angeles Crest to Mt Wilson today and have a pretty good feel of things.

This isn't going to be an organized and polished review article, so my apologies in advance if it's difficult to read. Note, I'm keeping the bike on asphalt in order to preserve its condition during the 30-day trial, so there won't be any dirt experiences to share.

Here's the short version: IMHO, what you think of the bike is really going to depend on how well it fits you out of the box and how/where you're going to ride it. Maybe that's too general and obvious, but I'll elaborate.

Around relatively flat surface streets mostly on Eco and the occasional hit of Tour, the Grail:On feels very fast and sporty. It's really nice to be able to cruise 23-25mph with steady assist, and it's amazing how much difference some semi-slicks help getting up to speed and holding it.

It is feasible to pedal without assist at all, but it turns into a slog quickly with only a couple percent of grade. I wouldn't count on going long distances without any assist.

I don't think the Hoverbar's compliance makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of give on the tops, for sure, but the tops are only useful in really benign conditions. Once you're on the hoods or drops, there's no obvious compliance. Of course, I don't have a control handlebar to compare against, so take it with a grain of salt. The compliance of the tires helps a lot on damaged pavement, but if there's a chunk of asphalt missing from the road, the bike crashes through it pretty violently. I haven't ridden a Specialized Future Shock, but I'd bet that a bit of telescoping travel is a better solution. Of course, the Creo comes stock with skinnier rubber, so there is that to consider.

The VCLS post is weird/interesting. It does indeed work as a leaf spring and takes the edge off jolts, but I do get a sensation of undamped oscillation over large bumps. Probably not an issue for a lighter rider.

I really don't get along with the Purion. Being limited to 5 bars of battery status is incredibly annoying. The range estimation helps a little bit, but it's only meaningful you have very long and steady stretches to work with. I'd trade range for percentage any time without hesitation. I *think* if you're creative enough, it should be possible to retrofit a Kiox. The Purion sits on a hoverbar-to-circular bar adapter, so if someone got a second adapter and a Kiox cradle that fits it, then I think it could be done.

Also, the Purion consistently reads about 5% fast compared to my cyclecomputer with GPS-calibrated wheel circumference. I think the rumor that the actual assist cutoff occurs at ~26.5mph is probably true, unless a dealer is able/willing to fix it.

Working with gearing range in practice wasn't quite as bad as I feared, but it was less than ideal. I went up a few steep streets with grades between 10-15% (depends on what source you believe). Eco and the lowest gear was way over my FTP, so I could only hold it for a few minutes before needing to back off or turn up assist. This leads to another issue. The Purion's buttons aren't terrible to reach, but nowhere nearly as easy to reach as on a mountain bike. If I didn't consciously think about shifting my grip to reach the "+" button, on one occasion I couldn't reach it before my cadence dropped off and I had to stop and unclip.

On a relatively flat and rather twisty side street, man it was so much fun to rail around the corners and accelerate out of them. Then at the end, I thought, "I want to do that again!" This time I clicked up to Turbo. "Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" was all that went through my mind for the first couple minutes of that. If you've ever read Hunter S Thompson's "Song of the Sausage Creature" I highly recommend it. That thought occurred to me as I found myself having to brake hard for turns on a flat road. It felt like I could chase down and strafe cars all day long that way. Needless to say, I went back and forth several times on that road just for giggles.

On today's longer ride, a lot of things really made me shake my head. Angeles Crest has an average grade of just over 5%. I had done the Angeles Crest Century as a teenager and wanted to be able to do similar rides with some regularity. However, if I wanted to do that again on this bike, I'd need to carry a second battery in my pack, and I couldn't afford to go above Eco mode. No way I'd be climbing above 20mph in Eco, so the distinction between Class 1 and Class 3 in this situation is almost meaningless.

Also, my neck and upper back were suffering on the bars. I kept on wanting the bars to be higher and closer. I'd ride with my thumb and pinky draped behind the top of the bar just so I could try to sit a little more upright. Sliding the saddle all the way forward in the rails didn't fix things. Getting in the drops was extremely uncomfortable. On the descents, I was wishing for a dropper post, didn't feel very safe with the narrow handlebars, and hated that it was relatively difficult to shift in the drops. It got to the point where I was thinking, "Why am I doing this?". I started my cycling career being a fairly hardcore roadie, but today I was sure that on a mountain bike I'd feel much more comfortable, safer, and confident being near high-speed traffic than this.

I think the Grail:On is interesting and beautiful in a brutish muscle-car kind of way. I think who it's best suited for is a bit situational though:

• (Someone riding in flat enough terrain to exploit Class 3 limits without having to use a lot of assist, or
• Someone only interested in relatively short rides where burning through the battery quickly is no big deal) and
• Someone who fits the ergonomics fine out of the box, and
• Someone who doesn't mind the steering/braking/grip peculiarities of drop bars.

I haven't made a final decision yet, but honestly, my current thinking is maybe I would just be better off building a dedicated "gravel" wheelset for an eMTB instead of having an actual e-road or e-gravel bike.

 

[MountainBoy]

Okay, I did a brief ride around a couple neighborhoods yesterday and a ~3 hour ride up to Angeles Crest to Mt Wilson today and have a pretty good feel of things.

This isn't going to be an organized and polished review article, so my apologies in advance if it's difficult to read. Note, I'm keeping the bike on asphalt in order to preserve its condition during the 30-day trial, so there won't be any dirt experiences to share.

Here's the short version: IMHO, what you think of the bike is really going to depend on how well it fits you out of the box and how/where you're going to ride it. Maybe that's too general and obvious, but I'll elaborate.

Around relatively flat surface streets mostly on Eco and the occasional hit of Tour, the Grail:On feels very fast and sporty. It's really nice to be able to cruise 23-25mph with steady assist, and it's amazing how much difference some semi-slicks help getting up to speed and holding it.

It is feasible to pedal without assist at all, but it turns into a slog quickly with only a couple percent of grade. I wouldn't count on going long distances without any assist.

I don't think the Hoverbar's compliance makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of give on the tops, for sure, but the tops are only useful in really benign conditions. Once you're on the hoods or drops, there's no obvious compliance. Of course, I don't have a control handlebar to compare against, so take it with a grain of salt. The compliance of the tires helps a lot on damaged pavement, but if there's a chunk of asphalt missing from the road, the bike crashes through it pretty violently. I haven't ridden a Specialized Future Shock, but I'd bet that a bit of telescoping travel is a better solution. Of course, the Creo comes stock with skinnier rubber, so there is that to consider.

The VCLS post is weird/interesting. It does indeed work as a leaf spring and takes the edge off jolts, but I do get a sensation of undamped oscillation over large bumps. Probably not an issue for a lighter rider.

I really don't get along with the Purion. Being limited to 5 bars of battery status is incredibly annoying. The range estimation helps a little bit, but it's only meaningful you have very long and steady stretches to work with. I'd trade range for percentage any time without hesitation. I *think* if you're creative enough, it should be possible to retrofit a Kiox. The Purion sits on a hoverbar-to-circular bar adapter, so if someone got a second adapter and a Kiox cradle that fits it, then I think it could be done.

Also, the Purion consistently reads about 5% fast compared to my cyclecomputer with GPS-calibrated wheel circumference. I think the rumor that the actual assist cutoff occurs at ~26.5mph is probably true, unless a dealer is able/willing to fix it.

Working with gearing range in practice wasn't quite as bad as I feared, but it was less than ideal. I went up a few steep streets with grades between 10-15% (depends on what source you believe). Eco and the lowest gear was way over my FTP, so I could only hold it for a few minutes before needing to back off or turn up assist. This leads to another issue. The Purion's buttons aren't terrible to reach, but nowhere nearly as easy to reach as on a mountain bike. If I didn't consciously think about shifting my grip to reach the "+" button, on one occasion I couldn't reach it before my cadence dropped off and I had to stop and unclip.

On a relatively flat and rather twisty side street, man it was so much fun to rail around the corners and accelerate out of them. Then at the end, I thought, "I want to do that again!" This time I clicked up to Turbo. "Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" was all that went through my mind for the first couple minutes of that. If you've ever read Hunter S Thompson's "Song of the Sausage Creature" I highly recommend it. That thought occurred to me as I found myself having to brake hard for turns on a flat road. It felt like I could chase down and strafe cars all day long that way. Needless to say, I went back and forth several times on that road just for giggles.

On today's longer ride, a lot of things really made me shake my head. Angeles Crest has an average grade of just over 5%. I had done the Angeles Crest Century as a teenager and wanted to be able to do similar rides with some regularity. However, if I wanted to do that again on this bike, I'd need to carry a second battery in my pack, and I couldn't afford to go above Eco mode. No way I'd be climbing above 20mph in Eco, so the distinction between Class 1 and Class 3 in this situation is almost meaningless.

Also, my neck and upper back were suffering on the bars. I kept on wanting the bars to be higher and closer. I'd ride with my thumb and pinky draped behind the top of the bar just so I could try to sit a little more upright. Sliding the saddle all the way forward in the rails didn't fix things. Getting in the drops was extremely uncomfortable. On the descents, I was wishing for a dropper post, didn't feel very safe with the narrow handlebars, and hated that it was relatively difficult to shift in the drops. It got to the point where I was thinking, "Why am I doing this?". I started my cycling career being a fairly hardcore roadie, but today I was sure that on a mountain bike I'd feel much more comfortable, safer, and confident being near high-speed traffic than this.

I think the Grail:On is interesting and beautiful in a brutish muscle-car kind of way. I think who it's best suited for is a bit situational though:

• (Someone riding in flat enough terrain to exploit Class 3 limits without having to use a lot of assist, or
• Someone only interested in relatively short rides where burning through the battery quickly is no big deal) and
• Someone who fits the ergonomics fine out of the box, and
• Someone who doesn't mind the steering/braking/grip peculiarities of drop bars.

I haven't made a final decision yet, but honestly, my current thinking is maybe I would just be better off building a dedicated "gravel" wheelset for an eMTB instead of having an actual e-road or e-gravel bike.

Thanks for your riding impressions! Any 'review' that mentions H.S.T.'s "Song of the Sausage Creature" is alright in my book!

The only thing that really surprised me was the thought you could only do LA Crest on 'Eco' mode without needing two batteries. How many miles is the ride you are speaking of and what's the elevation profile look like? I had assumed the more aero, easier rolling tires, lighter weight, and more aero ergonomics would more than make up the difference in battery size when comparing it's 500 Wh to a 625 Wh Bosch Powertube. Even with knobby tires, my 215 lbs. bodyweight and a 15 lb. backpack, I'm amazed at how much vertical and distance I can cover on my Scott Strike 920 with it's 625 Wh's and fourth generation Bosch motor. Saturday I climbed a closed gravel road that was plenty loose and rocky 3400 vertical feet net elevation gain (with some additional ups and downs) and returned, a total of 27 miles, with two bars still showing on the Purion. I was in Tour most of the way but I would switch to Eco for flats and downhills and crank it to Turbo for every switchback (which were steeper) and also any other section that seemed steeper or when I needed a break from monotonous climbing.. So, returning home with two bars still remaining was a surprise. I would have used Turbo more often if I knew that. On my Strike, "Tour" mode provides a very significant amount of assistance. I feel "Eco" mode overcomes the extra weight when climbing and only a little more than that. I wonder if the levels of assistance are roughly comparable between Bosch powered MTB's and the Grail.

My interest in the Grail is more on pavement than gravel, maybe 80%/20%, I just don't like the compromises of road bikes to eek out the last little bit of efficiency. I do appreciate their efficiency; I just want more capability when things are less than perfectly smooth.

 

[Gyre]

Thanks for your riding impressions! Any 'review' that mentions H.S.T.'s "Song of the Sausage Creature" is alright in my book!

The only thing that really surprised me was the thought you could only do LA Crest on 'Eco' mode without needing two batteries. How many miles is the ride you are speaking of and what's the elevation profile look like?

As I understand it, it changes from year to year, but when I did the ACC, it was ~55 miles of climbing/45 miles descending (scenic route on the climb, shortcut on the descent) and advertised as having an elevation gain of ~10,000 feet.

I played around with Komoot, and the distance and my recollection line up about right, though Komoot calls it 14,700 feet climbing. The Grail was predicting ~30-35 miles of ACH climbing on Eco, so to have a chance of doing anything quite like that again I'd need a second battery and stay almost entirely in Eco.

Just to ride to Mt Wilson, no I definitely didn't need to stay in Eco (37 miles, 4500' climbing) I kept in Eco for the first ~8 miles up to the Clear Creek station, then a mix of Eco and Tour to get to Red Box, then a mix of Tour, Sport, and Turbo up Red Box road to the summit (my strength was flagging by that point, so I needed all the help I could get). The range prediction was down to single digits in Tour mode at the time, so if I was feeling adventurous I might have tried to make it to Chilao, but then I'd really be running a risk of running out of juice completely.

I had assumed the more aero, easier rolling tires, lighter weight, and more aero ergonomics would more than make up the difference in battery size when comparing it's 500 Wh to a 625 Wh Bosch Powertube.

I'm sure the Grail:On is much more efficient due to the tires and weight, but I can't say if it's 20% more efficient.

On my Strike, "Tour" mode provides a very significant amount of assistance. I feel "Eco" mode overcomes the extra weight when climbing and only a little more than that.

It's substantial, but much less exciting on a climb than on the flat for sure. My speed in Eco mode to Clear Creek was about where I was as a teenager when I was in mediocre shape (~9mph). When I was in my best shape back then I could hold about 13mph.

I wonder if the levels of assistance are roughly comparable between Bosch powered MTB's and the Grail.

More or less I think, with the caveat that the Grail doesn't have anything like "Tour+" or "eMTB".

My interest in the Grail is more on pavement than gravel, maybe 80%/20%, I just don't like the compromises of road bikes to eek out the last little bit of efficiency. I do appreciate their efficiency; I just want more capability when things are less than perfectly smooth.

The larger tires are far more comfortable and secure than 80-100psi on 20-25c slicks and the VCLS seatpost does help take the edge out of some irregularities, so IMHO it delivers there.

 

[MountainBoy]

As I understand it, it changes from year to year, but when I did the ACC, it was ~55 miles of climbing/45 miles descending (scenic route on the climb, shortcut on the descent) and advertised as having an elevation gain of ~10,000 feet.

I played around with Komoot, and the distance and my recollection line up about right, though Komoot calls it 14,700 feet climbing. The Grail was predicting ~30-35 miles of ACH climbing on Eco, so to have a chance of doing anything quite like that again I'd need a second battery and stay almost entirely in Eco.

Just to ride to Mt Wilson, no I definitely didn't need to stay in Eco (37 miles, 4500' climbing) I kept in Eco for the first ~8 miles up to the Clear Creek station, then a mix of Eco and Tour to get to Red Box, then a mix of Tour, Sport, and Turbo up Red Box road to the summit (my strength was flagging by that point, so I needed all the help I could get). The range prediction was down to single digits in Tour mode at the time, so if I was feeling adventurous I might have tried to make it to Chilao, but then I'd really be running a risk of running out of juice completely.

I'm sure the Grail:On is much more efficient due to the tires and weight, but I can't say if it's 20% more efficient.

It's substantial, but much less exciting on a climb than on the flat for sure. My speed in Eco mode to Clear Creek was about where I was as a teenager when I was in mediocre shape (~9mph). When I was in my best shape back then I could hold about 13mph.

More or less I think, with the caveat that the Grail doesn't have anything like "Tour+" or "eMTB".

The larger tires are far more comfortable and secure than 80-100psi on 20-25c slicks and the VCLS seatpost does help take the edge out of some irregularities, so IMHO it delivers there.

Holy crap, 14,700 feet of elevation gain? According to a quick Google search, the most elevation gain in a single mountain stage of the Tour de France this year was 15,394 feet.

What is "ACH climbing"? I'm really bad at deciphering acronyms even when I'm familiar with the actual term they stand for.

What I've found with the Bosch system on my eMTB is the predicted range is useless due to the fact that it samples consumption from some unknown period of time (or distance), very short in any case, in the very recent past and uses that as an average consumption for the range prediction. In other words, it's all over the board depending upon how efficient you were during the unknown sample period. It can go from 4 miles remaining to 20 miles remaining in just a few minutes and without changing levels of assistance. My F-150 does this with "Remaining Miles to Empty" and it drives me nuts when I'm in the mountains because it's absolutely useless. It would make more sense to average consumption from the last couple of months and use that as the baseline consumption. Then the operator could use their own judgement whether the remaining trip was uphill or downhill. But it's just ridiculous to make the remaining range assumption based on the previous few minutes. As if a climbing road will continue climbing and a descending road will continue descending forever. So I agree with you it should just report the percent capacity remaining.

I think the reason they don't do this is they want to play games with how you use the bike so you end the ride with 20% range remaining and don't draw the battery regularly down to zero which might increase warranty expense with failed batteries if done regularly. I've never run it out (probably because of this), it always seems there is a bit more and should be running out any minute, but it can keep going and going and going, like the Energizer Bunny.

Also, are you sure you were fully charging the battery? I think they play games here too. I've noticed if you let it charge fully (it takes a long time after it shows 5 bars) and then unplug it and plug it in a few minutes later, it will charge for a considerable amount of time. And you can do this more than once. Definitely not good for the life of the battery, and not something I would do regularly, but probably what is necessary to get the full RATED capacity of the battery.

 

[Gyre]

Holy crap, 14,700 feet of elevation gain? According to a quick Google search, the most elevation gain in a single mountain stage of the Tour de France this year was 15,394 feet.

Whatever the actual gain, it was rough for sure. Back in the day, Bicycling listed it in their Top-10 most difficult centuries in the country.

On the way back down on that century my chain dropped and ripped the rear derailleur out of the frame, so I have a decades-old score to settle, even if I may never be in shape again to do it under 100% of my own power. It's also one of those roads that gets more and more beautiful and peaceful the further out you go (Cloudburst Summit, Eagle's Roost), so all the more reason to get some help to get out there.

What is "ACH climbing"? I'm really bad at deciphering acronyms even when I'm familiar with the actual term they stand for.

Sorry. Some common acronyms: ANF = Angeles National Forest, ACH = Angeles Crest Highway, AFH = Angeles Forest Highway, ACC = Angeles Crest Century

What I've found with the Bosch system on my eMTB is the predicted range is useless due to the fact that it samples consumption from some unknown period of time (or distance), very short in any case, in the very recent past and uses that as an average consumption for the range prediction. In other words, it's all over the board depending upon how efficient you were during the unknown sample period. It can go from 4 miles remaining to 20 miles remaining in just a few minutes and without changing levels of assistance. My F-150 does this with "Remaining Miles to Empty" and it drives me nuts when I'm in the mountains because it's absolutely useless. It would make more sense to average consumption from the last couple of months and use that as the baseline consumption. Then the operator could use their own judgement whether the remaining trip was uphill or downhill. But it's just ridiculous to make the remaining range assumption based on the previous few minutes. As if a climbing road will continue climbing and a descending road will continue descending forever. So I agree with you it should just report the percent capacity remaining.

Supposedly Bosch estimates range based on the last 1.5 miles of consumption. From my riding, that sounds about right. So, it has *some* value on ACH because the grade is pretty consistent.

I think the reason they don't do this is they want to play games with how you use the bike so you end the ride with 20% range remaining and don't draw the battery regularly down to zero which might increase warranty expense with failed batteries if done regularly.

The battery management system should impose a cutoff early enough to get through your warranty even if you run it 100-0 each time.

I've never run it out (probably because of this), it always seems there is a bit more and should be running out any minute, but it can keep going and going and going, like the Energizer Bunny.

Also, are you sure you were fully charging the battery? I think they play games here too. I've noticed if you let it charge fully (it takes a long time after it shows 5 bars) and then unplug it and plug it in a few minutes later, it will charge for a considerable amount of time.

No way to be sure. Trickle charging algorithms are their own thing, separate from the normal charge process, so I wouldn't try to read too much into them.

And you can do this more than once. Definitely not good for the life of the battery, and not something I would do regularly, but probably what is necessary to get the full RATED capacity of the battery.

This is why the percentage on the Kiox is so much better. I started with five bars, but there doesn't seem to be a practical way to know if I started with 100% charge, and I don't really know what to make of the two bars remaining, especially because they're supposedly not linear with respect to charge. Am I just under 50% or maybe a little under 20%? The whole thing seems geared to casual city riders, not enthusiasts.

 

[MountainBoy]

The battery management system should impose a cutoff early enough to get through your warranty even if you run it 100-0 each time.

Warranties are expensed by companies using estimates of the percentage of sales that will require replacement under warranty. Then the company holds reserve capital on their balance sheets to cover those expected expenses. The goal is a number that is as close to zero as possible (but it is never zero). Anything the company can do to lower that number has value. One thing they do to keep the number low is to set the 100% charge limit below the point at which the battery is fully charged (and all battery manufacturers do this to varying degrees). The downside of setting this number too low is it will reduce the amount they can claim as to the capacity of the battery. This means they try to push the level at which the battery is 100% charged as high as possible without getting into the "meaty" part of the failure curve over the warranty period. So they set this number as high as they dare and use other methods that cause users to not use this top part of the charge level. One visible thing they do to achieve that is simply to recommend that battery longevity can be improved by avoiding storing the battery at 100% charge and avoiding repeated discharges to zero or almost to zero.

The other factor is that there is some uncertainty, even within the Battery Management System, or BMS, as to how fully charged the battery is. It takes time for all cells to fully equalize as they near the 100% charge level. The charge current tapers to a fraction of the bulk absorption phase which not only increases the time for this equalization process to happen, but also reduces heat build-up. If the user repeatedly initiates more charging, after it has stopped charging, it will slowly charge the pack to a higher level for some time, before kicking off again. While regularly doing this will shorten the life of the battery, and increase the percentage of packs requiring warranty replacement, not many users are going to do this, for obvious reasons. But it may be necessary to get the battery charged to the manufacturers full rated capacity. Of course, that rated capacity is only valid when the pack is brand new. It's typical to lose 5% of rated capacity quite early in the life of the battery, before the rate of degradation tapers off to a lower amount until the battery nears it's end of life at which point degradation will accelerate.

My point here is there are a lot of variables in how long a pack lasts and time to failure of the entire population of packs is a distribution curve that is managed by the manufacturer, in part, by deciding where the upper and lower charge cutoff points are. Also, these cutoffs will vary somewhat depending upon HOW the battery is charged. Temperature will play into it. How many times it is consecutively plugged after charging shows "100%" will change the cutoff.

This is why the percentage on the Kiox is so much better. I started with five bars, but there doesn't seem to be a practical way to know if I started with 100% charge, and I don't really know what to make of the two bars remaining, especially because they're supposedly not linear with respect to charge. Am I just under 50% or maybe a little under 20%? The whole thing seems geared to casual city riders, not enthusiasts.

I agree, I would rather have a battery indicator that reported to the nearest 1% rather than the nearest 20% (and a non-linear 20% at that). However, even charge indicators that report to the nearest 1% have more than 1% uncertainty built into them. In other words, they are not actually accurate to 1% but probably closer to 4%-5%. Yes, that's better than 5 bars but it's still not providing the accuracy that it's displaying.

I don't think the two methods are chosen between casual city riders and bicycle enthusiasts but rather the 5-bar indicator is the default (and the cheapest display option) because it reduces battery warranty costs by NOT encouraging people to keep plugging it in to achieve 100%, especially if the bike has been sitting a few days and had some natural self-discharge. People are weird that way. If they see it still has 5 bars, they are good to go. But if they look and see it only says "94%", they will often plug it in until it reads 100% before they depart. The uncertainty inherent in the 5-bar display also encourages riders to switch to lower levels of assistance earlier in the ride which results in a less severe depth of discharge at the end of the ride. So, the percent remaining display will move the battery warranty expense higher and that's one reason you have to pay more to get it. You would be surprised at how high the battery warranty expense would be if every ride, of every owner, took the battery from a true 100% SOC (state-of-charge) to a 0 SOC. But manufacturers know that in the real world the discharge curves will fall into a distribution curve, and they take good advantage of that fact.

There is little doubt that Bosch (and other battery providers) play "games" with the reported state of charge to help them manage battery warranty costs and they also charge extra for displays that allow the rider to manage the charging and discharging more accurately such that it pushes warranty expenses to the right.

 

[MountainBoy]

I haven't made a final decision yet, but honestly, my current thinking is maybe I would just be better off building a dedicated "gravel" wheelset for an eMTB instead of having an actual e-road or e-gravel bike.

It looks like your 30-day return period is quickly coming to a close. Based on your earlier feedback, I'm going to guess you're not planning on keeping it.

How did I do?

I'm still planning on getting the 8 when it's available as it sounds perfect for me.

 

[Gyre]

It looks like your 30-day return period is quickly coming to a close. Based on your earlier feedback, I'm going to guess you're not planning on keeping it.

How did I do?

I'm still planning on getting the 8 when it's available as it sounds perfect for me.

Yeah, I returned it after that one weekend trying it out. Wasn't comfortable with the front end, and that's fatal given that the whole thing is so proprietary - it's not like I can experiment with different stem/handlebar combinations. When I spoke to the Canyon rep on the phone, he thought that a Medium could have been a better fit despite Canyon's sizing system, but I wasn't going to buy a Medium on the off chance that maybe it would been better.

Best of luck with the 8!

Edit: A couple side notes:
- The experience of building up the bike (and tearing it down, if necessary) given the way Canyon delivers it to you was actually very nice. The box is huge, but if you have a large and clear workspace, you can easily go from box to ready to ride on the same day.
- The selection of parts and accessories for US riders is really bad. Most things are only available on Canyon's international website, which is walled off from US orders.

 

[MountainBoy]

The model I want is the Grail: ON CF 8 eTap and it's been a real frustrating experience. First, they kept pushing back the available date a week or two at a time. Then the availability said two-three months out into December. Then the window expanded about a week or two sooner into November 21. Then, just a few days ago, they pushed it out into March of 2023!

Once you've made up your mind which bike you want, it's terrible when they keep dangling that carrot in front of you, but then moving it progressively further and further out there (even if tantalizingly close a couple of times)!

I've never been with a girl that was this much of a tease! C'mon, Canyon, get your stuff together!

 

[MountainBoy]

Now Canyon has moved expected availability a month closer to February 2023. I've looked at all the other offerings in the Gravel eBike space and none of them are compelling to me. They either don't have the bike that fits my needs and/or they are ugly. Hopefully Canyon gets their supply chain and manufacturing issues resolved. Because it really feels like human civilization is falling apart.

 

[Gyre]

I take it the new Domane+ with the TQ motor isn't a good fit for your use case?

 

[MountainBoy]

I need a true gravel bike. I'm 6'-04 and 212 lbs. and ride some pretty rough roads so I need a wider tire.

I haven't ridden one, but my impression is that it's too stiff in terms of impacts on the bars and seat and perhaps not as stiff in terms of cranking on the pedals. My nearly 60-year-old body needs something that can offer some absorption of the rough pavement and gravel I want to use it on so the seat post and drop bars are going to relieve some pain.

It's hard to get over the looks of it too! Ugly as sin. Canyon looks like they know what they are doing when they design a frame. Plus, I'm not dropping $13K to get the components and wheels I want! It makes the top-end Grail look like a screaming deal!

Even if it were suitable to my needs, I have a bone to pick with Trek from about 1987 when I bought my first Trek MTB (non-suspension). It was the largest frame size they made, aluminum framed with glued frame joints (which was new at the time). I was a very strong rider being 24 years old and an active skier/bicyclist and a commercial fisherman which works out your legs most waking hours. The whole frame turned into a soft, flexy mess after riding it down a bumpy fire road at high speed. I suspect Trek had not tested their glued frame joints on the XL size frame with a big strong rider bombing fire roads. And I could understand that, but the problem was they refused to warranty it even though it could no longer be pedaled hard by a strong rider without flexing like a pretzel. They said they tested it on their frame deflection standard and it met their spec. I told them to ride it and tell me it was a good frame but they would never admit it was junk. It was one of their more expensive models. One thing I can say about it, was it had a silky-smooth ride, even with 50 psi in the tires.

Trek leaves a bad taste in my mouth even though I know I will probably not have that same experience again. It's one brand I just don't like because they took my hard-earned money and gave me a frame that was a piece of junk.

 

[JStrube]

Even if it were suitable to my needs, I have a bone to pick with Trek from about 1987 when I bought my first Trek MTB (non-suspension). It was the largest frame size they made, aluminum framed with glued frame joints (which was new at the time). I was a very strong rider being 24 years old and an active skier/bicyclist and a commercial fisherman which works out your legs most waking hours. The whole frame turned into a soft, flexy mess after riding it down a bumpy fire road at high speed. I suspect Trek had not tested their glued frame joints on the XL size frame with a big strong rider bombing fire roads. And I could understand that, but the problem was they refused to warranty it even though it could no longer be pedaled hard by a strong rider without flexing like a pretzel. They said they tested it on their frame deflection standard and it met their spec. I told them to ride it and tell me it was a good frame but they would never admit it was junk. It was one of their more expensive models. One thing I can say about it, was it had a silky-smooth ride, even with 50 psi in the tires.

Trek leaves a bad taste in my mouth even though I know I will probably not have that same experience again. It's one brand I just don't like because they took my hard-earned money and gave me a frame that was a piece of junk.

I think I bought the same bike. Added an Offroad flexstem to make it livable on the bumpy washboards...

 

[MountainBoy]

Ha! That's quite a coincidence, if correct, because I don't recall seeing any others like it all these years. They probably didn't sell very well being somewhat unproven and not cheap. I think it said "2700"vertically on the seat tube in big numerals (model name). The only one the LBS had in stock was a bright periwinkle color that I didn't really like but the color ended up growing on me.

If sold today, it would be called a gravel bike. Back then, it was a full-on mountain bike. Sure, suspension bikes were just starting to become popular but the non-suspension MTB's still had the bulk of the sales, I think.

 

[JStrube]

Ha! That's quite a coincidence, if correct, because I don't recall seeing any others like it all these years. They probably didn't sell very well being somewhat unproven and not cheap. I think it said "2700"vertically on the seat tube in big numerals (model name). The only one the LBS had in stock was a bright periwinkle color that I didn't really like but the color ended up growing on me.

If sold today, it would be called a gravel bike. Back then, it was a full-on mountain bike. Sure, suspension bikes were just starting to become popular but the non-suspension MTB's still had the bulk of the sales, I think.

Mine was an 88 7500 aluminum model. Blue in color. Biopace, but in medium. It was the bonded aluminum. I had it up until about 5 years ago, when I gave it to a friend to fix up for a homeless guy.

 

[MountainBoy]

Mine was an 88 7500 aluminum model. Blue in color. Biopace, but in medium. It was the bonded aluminum. I had it up until about 5 years ago, when I gave it to a friend to fix up for a homeless guy.

Yes, similar bike. I misremembered the number., it was a 7000 or a 7500. I liked it for it's soft riding frame and suitable geometry for how I like a bike to handle. As long as I didn't expect it transmit pedal energy very efficiently it was great. A medium size probably would have been more stiff.

 

[Ducman71]

Just recently bought a Grail:ON and have some initial thoughts. Any specific questions, feel free to hit me up. I had been low-key thinking about the Grail:ON for probably the last 6 months, to replace an older MTB and a road bike that were not getting much use. I finally got around to selling those bikes and pulled the trigger on the Grail. I had read through this thread previously with some interest, as there is not really a lot of user feedback anywhere on this bike, other than magazine/press reviews.

Short version: I like it. Context is important, as satisfaction is always a matter of expectations. In my case, I'm really using the Grail to replace my prior road bike with something slightly more comfortable, and with pedal assist to help with dragging my toddler trailer around without holding up the rest of the group. The fact that I'll be able to link together road sections with gravel/dirt trail shortcuts is just a bonus. I still have an MTB for real trail riding. For my intended purpose, it is well suited.

Some concerns I had before purchase...
-Sizing. I'm 174cm with about 83cm inseam, normally ride a 54cm road frame or size M MTB. Canyon's sizing tool recommended Small. As many others buying a Canyon for the first time, I was suspect of this recommendation. It fits me well, so I suggest trusting Canyon on this.
- Those handlebars. It is a little weird to grip with the thumb over the lower plane of the bars when switching to the drops, but you get used to this after a few times. The flex zone of the upper plane of the bars does work, but it's not terribly useful, as the flexy part is around the center of the bar (above the headtube), so there is no way you would ride with your hands here on anything rough. Riding straight on cobbled or broken pavement maybe, but nothing where you either need leverage on the bars or quick access to the brake levers. On the other hand, I think they look cool, and I the bar location (height, reach) is fine for me.
- Weight. It is chunky, feels like it weighs close to my Rise, which is bananas considering it has no suspension, though the battery is bigger. Anyway, while it feels like a tank when picking it up or moving it around, it's not an issue when riding. Of course the motor has plenty of torque to make it accelerate like a lighter bike as expected, but I was specifically concerned that it would feel really heavy when you get up on the pedals and sprint out of the saddle. It actually feels perfectly lively when sprinting out of the seat, as the frame is laterally quite stiff.

It's quite comfortable on the road, owing to the 50mm tires, the leafspring seatpost, and the somewhat upright riding position (relative to a traditional road bike, like the Cervelo S2 I had before). The Bosch assist is not that smoothly applied (at initial tip in) compared to the Shimano EP8 I'm used to; I find the Grail a bit abrupt. While this would likely annoy me on a mountain bike where you are frequently changing cadence and starting/stopping pedaling, but on the road where cadence and effort are more constant, it's not an issue.

 

[MountainBoy]

Just recently bought a Grail:ON and have some initial thoughts. Any specific questions, feel free to hit me up. I had been low-key thinking about the Grail:ON for probably the last 6 months, to replace an older MTB and a road bike that were not getting much use. I finally got around to selling those bikes and pulled the trigger on the Grail. I had read through this thread previously with some interest, as there is not really a lot of user feedback anywhere on this bike, other than magazine/press reviews.

Short version: I like it. Context is important, as satisfaction is always a matter of expectations. In my case, I'm really using the Grail to replace my prior road bike with something slightly more comfortable, and with pedal assist to help with dragging my toddler trailer around without holding up the rest of the group. The fact that I'll be able to link together road sections with gravel/dirt trail shortcuts is just a bonus. I still have an MTB for real trail riding. For my intended purpose, it is well suited.

Some concerns I had before purchase...
-Sizing. I'm 174cm with about 83cm inseam, normally ride a 54cm road frame or size M MTB. Canyon's sizing tool recommended Small. As many others buying a Canyon for the first time, I was suspect of this recommendation. It fits me well, so I suggest trusting Canyon on this.
- Those handlebars. It is a little weird to grip with the thumb over the lower plane of the bars when switching to the drops, but you get used to this after a few times. The flex zone of the upper plane of the bars does work, but it's not terribly useful, as the flexy part is around the center of the bar (above the headtube), so there is no way you would ride with your hands here on anything rough. Riding straight on cobbled or broken pavement maybe, but nothing where you either need leverage on the bars or quick access to the brake levers. On the other hand, I think they look cool, and I the bar location (height, reach) is fine for me.
- Weight. It is chunky, feels like it weighs close to my Rise, which is bananas considering it has no suspension, though the battery is bigger. Anyway, while it feels like a tank when picking it up or moving it around, it's not an issue when riding. Of course the motor has plenty of torque to make it accelerate like a lighter bike as expected, but I was specifically concerned that it would feel really heavy when you get up on the pedals and sprint out of the saddle. It actually feels perfectly lively when sprinting out of the seat, as the frame is laterally quite stiff.

It's quite comfortable on the road, owing to the 50mm tires, the leafspring seatpost, and the somewhat upright riding position (relative to a traditional road bike, like the Cervelo S2 I had before). The Bosch assist is not that smoothly applied (at initial tip in) compared to the Shimano EP8 I'm used to; I find the Grail a bit abrupt. While this would likely annoy me on a mountain bike where you are frequently changing cadence and starting/stopping pedaling, but on the road where cadence and effort are more constant, it's not an issue.

Thanks for the great feedback! I'm still waiting on the Grail ON CF eTap which they have pushed back availability twice this year, currently at 2/6 -2/17/2023 so maybe getting close finally. The fact that it's already Feb. 3 and they didn't push it back again today leads me to think they finally have everything they need to build and ship.

Which model did you get? The one concern I have is the eTap model won't have a low enough gear to climb some of the pretty steep hills I need to climb regularly but I think the power of the Bosch motor might pull through and allow me to climb with a good cadence, it's just that if I have to run it in Turbo mode to hit the steepest sections it's going to kill my range! It's a very close ratio cassette, particularly for an eBike. That's why a smaller front sprocket isn't necessarily a good solution, then I ruin the higher speed abilities that a bike like this should be setup for.

 

[Ducman71]

Thanks for the great feedback! I'm still waiting on the Grail ON CF eTap which they have pushed back availability twice this year, currently at 2/6 -2/17/2023 so maybe getting close finally. The fact that it's already Feb. 3 and they didn't push it back again today leads me to think they finally have everything they need to build and ship.

Which model did you get? The one concern I have is the eTap model won't have a low enough gear to climb some of the pretty steep hills I need to climb regularly but I think the power of the Bosch motor might pull through and allow me to climb with a good cadence, it's just that if I have to run it in Turbo mode to hit the steepest sections it's going to kill my range! It's a very close ratio cassette, particularly for an eBike. That's why a smaller front sprocket isn't necessarily a good solution, then I ruin the higher speed abilities that a bike like this should be setup for.

I got the base CF7, for a few reasons...I wasn't interested in eTap/AXS, the difference between the CF7 & CF8 is inconsequential IMO, and I preferred the blue. I know what you mean about the max 36T cog of AXS being a bit tall with the 44T chainring, but the motor does have plenty of grunt in the higher assist settings, so you'd probably be fine. As for how much it would kill the range to rely on the motor for steep sections, it really depends how long those steep sections are, how efficient your pedaling is, and how restrained you can be to avoid leaving it in Turbo the rest of the time. I'm more than happy with the range I'm seeing so far overall, but I've mostly been using Eco or Tour.

Hopefully you can get yours soon! Post back with your thoughts once you get it.

 

[MountainBoy]

I got the base CF7, for a few reasons...I wasn't interested in eTap/AXS, the difference between the CF7 & CF8 is inconsequential IMO, and I preferred the blue. I know what you mean about the max 36T cog of AXS being a bit tall with the 44T chainring, but the motor does have plenty of grunt in the higher assist settings, so you'd probably be fine. As for how much it would kill the range to rely on the motor for steep sections, it really depends how long those steep sections are, how efficient your pedaling is, and how restrained you can be to avoid leaving it in Turbo the rest of the time. I'm more than happy with the range I'm seeing so far overall, but I've mostly been using Eco or Tour.

Hopefully you can get yours soon! Post back with your thoughts once you get it.

Canyon has pushed back availability of the eTap version again, this time by another week. I wonder what part they haven't been able to get since at least August of last year.

 

[Ducman71]

Canyon has pushed back availability of the eTap version again, this time by another week. I wonder what part they haven't been able to get since at least August of last year.

Frustrating. The only differences between the CF8 eTap and the CF8/CF7 are the SRAM bits (drivetrain, levers, brakes, rotors) and the wheelset. I briefly checked the analog Grail, and availability there looks worse for eTap compared to Di2, so it seems likely the supply holdup is with SRAM. How committed are you to having eTap? IMO, GRX is quite solid, and the ratio spread of the cassette is wider as you know (380% for 11-42 GRX versus 360% for 10-36 eTap).

 

[Ducman71]

@MountainBoy I got the Grail out for a proper mixed-terrain ride today, about 50/50 pavement and dirt, with the offroad sections including tame (but sometimes steep and rutted) MTB trails, gravel trails, and some water crossings. It's quite fun. Some additional observations from today:

Gearing. For truly steep sections, I personally don't think I would like being limited to the 36T cog on the SRAM cassette. I spent my time on the steepest sections (more than 15% grade) in the 42T cog, and even still needed to dip into the higher assist levels (up to Sport) at a few technical points. For slow climbing on really steep offroad pitches where you are managing traction in addition to your pedaling effort, the 42T still allows you to maintain a good, smooth cadence. I think the 36T cog would be a real limitation here. If your riding will be mostly pavement or dirt trails where really steep sections are rare, the eTap setup would be fine, but if you'll do much steep dirt sections with any regularity, I would think hard about the gearing. Let's put it this way, the Shimano SLX cassette has a 37T cog, and I didn't use it on the steep sections today...

Those handlebars. I did find some occasion to try the center flex zone on the top of the bars on some sections of trail that were straight, hard packed, and with a lot of small rocks. It does indeed work to take up some of the energy coming into the front of the bike and smooth off the hits, but personally, I found it more comfortable in the same conditions to put my hands on the top of the hoods where it was easier to maintain a slight bend in my elbows; in that position, your arms can do a better job of absorbing inputs from the bars than the flexy bit does. Short version, the bars do work as promised by Canyon, I'm just not sure it matters.

Purion indicated speed. It does indicate slightly optimistic (high) compared to actual speed via a cycling computer, but not that much really. At a constant, steady state speed, once the cycling computer indicated speed has stabilized (I'm using a Garmin Edge with GPS/GLONASS for speed measurement), the difference between it and the Purion was about 0.5 mph or so. However, speed is rarely steady state, and in normal conditions, there was quite an observed difference between the Purion and the Garmin, but this was due to the latency of the position based speed on the Garmin. What I mean is that the Purion indicated speed reacts instantly to the actual wheel speed, while the Garmin is always a bit delayed in responding compared to the actual speed, so sometime the Garmin reads higher than actual, sometimes lower. All of this to say, I actually find the Purion display a more useful way to see speed. Accordingly, I've adjusted the display preferences on the Garmin to show me data fields other than speed, and will use the Purion as the speed indication. All of this is likely irrelevant if you use a wheel speed sensor for your cycling computer rather than location based, calculated speed (GPS, etc.).

Hope this helps.

 

[MountainBoy]

Frustrating. The only differences between the CF8 eTap and the CF8/CF7 are the SRAM bits (drivetrain, levers, brakes, rotors) and the wheelset. I briefly checked the analog Grail, and availability there looks worse for eTap compared to Di2, so it seems likely the supply holdup is with SRAM. How committed are you to having eTap? IMO, GRX is quite solid, and the ratio spread of the cassette is wider as you know (380% for 11-42 GRX versus 360% for 10-36 eTap).

I'm not at all committed to eTap, it's the wheels I want!

Oh, and thanks for all the good feedback! I'm not interested in using the Grail for anything but smooth trails, the steep sections are single lane blacktop, the super steep sections are only 1/4 mile but it's pretty steep for a couple of miles.

 

[Ducman71]

I'm not at all committed to eTap, it's the wheels I want!

Oh, and thanks for all the good feedback! I'm not interested in using the Grail for anything but smooth trails, the steep sections are single lane blacktop, the super steep sections are only 1/4 mile but it's pretty steep for a couple of miles.

I can understand that; the carbon hoops are sweet. For your use, the SRAM gearing should be fine. Hopefully the wait is not too much longer for you. I look forward to hearing what you think of it when you are able to take delivery.

 

[MountainBoy]

They finally have the CF8 eTap available and I have one on the way! It's been a very long wait with many delayed estimates (and a couple pulled forward in-between the delays). This probably means it might rain cats and dogs from the delivery date until summer comes! Haha! I hope not!

 

[Ducman71]

They finally have the CF8 eTap available and I have one on the way! It's been a very long wait with many delayed estimates (and a couple pulled forward in-between the delays). This probably means it might rain cats and dogs from the delivery date until summer comes! Haha! I hope not!

Dude, awesome, congrats! Finally. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[MountainBoy]

Dude, awesome, congrats! Finally. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I'll share my impressions and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions for more experienced cyclists here. I'm an ex-Ducati rider, I only say "ex" because I used to ride around 6000 miles/year on the backroads and secondary highways of the American West, but haven't taken a single ride over 100 miles since 2017. I just lost the desire after a lifetime of being an enthusiast. I still have three Ducati Sport-touring bikes (one is a Mille bevel) and a Suzuki DR650. It could be my sense of self-preservation kicking in! Curious what you've been riding (since this forum seems rather slow on the actual topic).

 

[Ducman71]

I'll share my impressions and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions for more experienced cyclists here. I'm an ex-Ducati rider, I only say "ex" because I used to ride around 6000 miles/year on the backroads and secondary highways of the American West, but haven't taken a single ride over 100 miles since 2017. I just lost the desire after a lifetime of being an enthusiast. I still have three Ducati Sport-touring bikes (one is a Mille bevel) and a Suzuki DR650. It could be my sense of self-preservation kicking in! Curious what you've been riding (since this forum seems rather slow on the actual topic).

Seems we have similar interests. I've been riding and racing all varieties of motos (on road and in the dirt) since I was in grade school; dating myself here, but that means over 47 years of riding. I have a couple of Ducatis currently (a Multistrada 1200 and a bevel 900SS), a dual sport (Beta 390RRS), a supermoto (KTM 690 SMCR) and a few other bikes. For bicycles, I've consolidated down to an eMTB (Orbea Rise) and the new Grail:ON after selling off an old enduro MTB and a few road bikes. I still have the desire to ride the motos, I just don't have as much time as I used to (my wife and I have a toddler); this is one of the reasons why the eMTB and the Grail work well for me, I can get more riding done in the same amount of time. It's very hard for me to get more than a few consecutive hours free to myself, so I need to make the time count!

 

[MountainBoy]

The Grail:ON CF 8 eTap arrived and I'm pretty stoked about it and although we are still pretty firmly in the grip of winter, I've braced against the cold and took her for a couple of spins. At this point my concerns about the gearing potentially not being low enough have mostly evaporated, and I'm pleased with the sizing, it seems to fit me well (I'm 6'-3.5" 215 lbs. and bought the XL).

The 50mm Schwalbe G-One Bite tires have tons of grip on the few surfaces I've tested but the tread is a bit more pronounced than expected and this makes them a little slower than I was expecting on asphalt and chip seal. The rubber seems really grippy and like it will work well in the wet even though I've seen on-line reviews that these tires are not very suitable for wet conditions. They do feel a little loose when on the edge, even in the dry, but I think this is due to the height of the tread "fingers" that reduce in number towards the edge of the tread. I wonder if people who thought these tires were crap in the wet were fooled by that loose feeling caused by tread squirm? I do think I would like these tires more if they kept a higher density of tread fingers right to the edge of the tread but the reduced density of tread "blocks" near the edge prevents them from letting go suddenly and turns it into a more controllable, progressive feeling.

I plan to eventually try out some Schwalbe G-One Speeds, probably in 40mm as I'm not convinced I need the 50mm width for my intended purposes of backroads, gravel roads and relatively flat paths. I've been riding them in the mid 50's PSI but have reduced them closer to the minimum sidewall pressure of 45 PSI that I'm looking forward to being able to try out. I knew I would appreciate the grip of all those little fingers on slippery surfaces but on high grip surfaces like clean, dry asphalt, they really seem to "fight" each other and slow you down, even when pumped up hard. These are tires I expect to get significantly faster as they wear. I'm a little confused about the pressure rating of these tires because, given their 50 mm width, it seems like they should be able to handle pressures lower than the 45 PSI minimum molded into the sidewall.

The split carbon fiber seat post provides a meaningful amount of help with bumpy terrain without feeling too flexy or nebulous. It actually feels pretty rigid but with the edge taken off harder hits to the bum. One thing to keep in mind if you are in-between frame sizes is that bike sizing will have a very significant effect on how compliant the seat suspension is. My seat post is 65mm above the maximum insertion depth on the scale printed on the seat post and think I would like the feel even better if I could have another 10-15mm exposed (75-80mm on the printed scale). Of course, it must be set where it fits, so those on relatively smaller frames for their inseam will have more (softer) suspension action while the opposite is true for those on relatively larger frames for their inseam length.

I like the cockpit although it's going to take a few rides to train myself to keep my thumbs high when switching to the forward drop position (otherwise they run into the cross-member instead of slipping comfortably over it). It's just a matter of developing the muscle memory when changing grip positions. The bar tape is super nice with the perfect blend of bump absorption without feeling nebulous or too soft. The resiliency of the tape, combined with the carbon bars is very nice in cold weather in terms of not conducting heat away from your hands.

The 160mm brakes seem undersized for my 215 lbs. since I encounter some pretty steep/fast descents, so I'll probably upgrade the front to 180 mm, I would go larger but don't know if that's available. I've barely bedded them in so maybe they will continue to improve.

So far, I'm really sold on the electric derailleur, sweet shifts and super easy to pair with my phone and make micro-adjustments. My enthusiasm could wane if it ever become a hassle but, so far, so good. Battery life is good, so I'm not worried about running out of power on a ride.

The Canyon webpage says it comes with the faster Bosch 4 amp charger but it was shipped with the slower 2 amp charger. When I pointed this out to Canyon, they provided a link where I could order the 4 amp unit and said they would credit my card for the amount. They did say this bike is supposed to ship with the 2 amp unit but the webpage still indicates 4 amps.

As to the power delivery, I can only compare it to my Scott Strike eMTB with its Bosch Performance CX Gen 4 drive unit and 625 Wh battery. The Mountain bike has a more pronounced power hit when getting on it in Turbo mode while the Grail feels more refined and natural with less acceleration, even with its lighter wheels/tires. It's more than adequate but it did surprise me as I was expecting it to feel slightly more powerful, not less. I'm not disappointed in this as it suits the way I intended to ride this bike just fine. It's still very early in my experience with this bike but I'm already more confident that the range of the 500Wh battery will handily exceed that of my 625Wh battery on my eMTB due to the better aero, lighter weight and more efficient tires.