Canyon Grail

[MountainBoy]

Is there a forum for non-MTB e-bikes? I was thinking of adding a gravel e-bike to the stable to satisfy my need for speed. I see Canyon specs the Grail as having assistance up to 28 mph. Is that legal in my state of Washington, USA?

 

[Gyre]

Rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd recycle this one. I'm considering a Grail:On or a Creo SL (leaning towards the Grail currently). I've read the reviews on both and wanted to get some non-reviewer experiences. Anyone have direct experience with the Grail (or Creo for that matter) and up for sharing their thoughts?

 

[MountainBoy]

I haven't seen any user feedback on any of the Grail: On models, let me know if you find any. Still planning to get the Grail: On 8 as soon as it's available but I'm a little surprised at the lack of discussion online. I guess when you don't sell through bike shops it's harder to get any buzz going because no one stands to benefit.

 

[MountainBoy]

Rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd recycle this one. I'm considering a Grail:On or a Creo SL (leaning towards the Grail currently). I've read the reviews on both and wanted to get some non-reviewer experiences. Anyone have direct experience with the Grail (or Creo for that matter) and up for sharing their thoughts?

Which model variation are you leaning towards? I decided to splurge on the top model so I didn't have to dink around with wheel and component upgrades down the line. Life is short and it often ends up costing more once all is said and done. Plus, I'm curious about electric shifting and ditching another cable.

 

[Gyre]

Which model variation are you leaning towards? I decided to splurge on the top model so I didn't have to dink around with wheel and component upgrades down the line. Life is short and it often ends up costing more once all is said and done. Plus, I'm curious about electric shifting and ditching another cable.

The CF7 is the only model currently available is the US in my size, and I'd probably go for that anyways. If I went with that, I'd eventually build up some wheels with Onyx hubs, run a Shimano 12 speed MTB cassette, and mix eTap Force shifters with an Eagle AXS derailleur. The gap between gears would be huge, but at least I'd have gearing more appropriate for our local mountains.

 

[MountainBoy]

The CF7 is the only model currently available is the US in my size, and I'd probably go for that anyways. If I went with that, I'd eventually build up some wheels with Onyx hubs, run a Shimano 12 speed MTB cassette, and mix eTap Force shifters with an Eagle AXS derailleur. The gap between gears would be huge, but at least I'd have gearing more appropriate for our local mountains.

Interesting idea, one thing I've been concerned about with the Grail is relatively tall lowest gear of a 44T chainring with a 36T maximum gear on the cassette. But couldn't I just put a smaller chainring on there? I do like the idea of closer gear ratios for smooth shifting and a relatively tall gear for faster descents than MTB's usually provide.

I'm not sure how much of an issue the tall 1st gear would be considering the extra torque from the drive motor when climbing? I know on my current eMTB, I climb pretty steep stuff in third gear (34T chainring, 39T rear) and never really use the two largest gears. The Grail has longer cranks (by 10mm) too, at least in frame sizes from Medium and up). Is there much involved in swapping out the 44T chainring for a 40 or 41T?

 

[Gyre]

Interesting idea, one thing I've been concerned about with the Grail is relatively tall lowest gear of a 44T chainring with a 36T maximum gear on the cassette. But couldn't I just put a smaller chainring on there? I do like the idea of closer gear ratios for smooth shifting and a relatively tall gear for faster descents than MTB's usually provide.

I don't see why not. The only catch is you'd lose top end. That's fine on the dirt, but the canyon roads around here are jammed with hyper-aggressive drivers. It's important to try to keep up with traffic or go fast enough to get to a turnout before one of them loses their shit and makes an unsafe pass. It just depends on the local situation where you live and ride.

I'm not sure how much of an issue the tall 1st gear would be considering the extra torque from the drive motor when climbing? I know on my current eMTB, I climb pretty steep stuff in third gear (34T chainring, 39T rear) and never really use the two largest gears. The Grail has longer cranks (by 10mm) too, at least in frame sizes from Medium and up).

I wouldn't recommend relying on the motor much to turn over high gears that you couldn't pedal yourself. That puts a lot of stress on the motor and transmission when it would happily spin a lower gear if given the chance. That said, if you think the existing gearing is fine for where you plan to ride, there's no reason to spend extra messing around to get a wider gear range.

Is there much involved in swapping out the 44T chainring for a 40 or 41T?

No idea. It looks like it comes with a 4-bolt spider, but I think I see 8 bolts in the photos. There might be something weird going on like a large chainring on 64BCD, but I can't tell from fuzzy pictures.

Edit: It's probably an FSA gen 4 104BCD spider, maybe a W0134 or something like that.

 

[MountainBoy]

I don't see why not. The only catch is you'd lose top end. That's fine on the dirt, but the canyon roads around here and jammed with hyper-aggressive drivers. It's important to try to keep up with traffic or go fast enough to get to a turnout before one of them loses their shit and makes an unsafe pass. It just depends on the local situation where you live and ride.

I wouldn't recommend relying on the motor much to turn over high gears that you couldn't pedal yourself. That puts a lot of stress on the motor and transmission when it would happily spin a lower gear if given the chance. That said, if you think the existing gearing is fine for where you plan to ride, there's no reason to spend extra messing around to get a wider gear range.

No idea. It looks like it comes with a 4-bolt spider, but I think I see 8 bolts in the photos. There might be something weird going on like a large chainring on 64BCD, but I can't tell from fuzzy pictures.

Edit: It's probably an FSA gen 4 104BCD spider, maybe a W0134 or something like that.

Crap, that sounds hairy, I would not put up with that. That's why I don't have a road bike. I will ride around an occasional car, that's about it. Sometimes I see zero cars in a 3-4 hour ride (and, yes, the scenery is beautiful, and the road is open to vehicles). But I still like to go a faster than my mountainbike is capable of with it's 34T chainring, 10T rear and 29" wheels. Sigh.

As to not relying on the motor to turn over gears I couldn't pedal myself, that's not what I'm talking about. I could turn those gears but I would be doing a lot of work without the helping hand of the motor. My heart rate would be higher than I want and so would my respiration. That's what the motor is for, at least for me, to go faster uphills with less work. That's why I say the motor reduces the need for extra low gears, no matter the steepness of the hill, the gearing can be taller with a motor because you will be climbing faster for the same amount of work. The cadence doesn't change between motor/no motor, just the ground speed.

The only valid argument against this is getting up the hill with a low or dead battery but I live at the bottom of all the hills in the area, so not a big consideration for me.

 

[JStrube]

I test rode the Electric Grail at Sea Otter 2022. I took a very quick lap around the Laguna Seca road course, and boy, was it nice to climb the back hill with power. I tried everything from Eco to Turbo. If I didn't have a really nice Lightspeed T5-G, I would own that bike. The only thing I did not care for, was that the stand over height was quite tall, and while the fixed bar was comfortable, I'm not 100% sure the reach was perfect for me. I am 240#, and not quite in road bike shape like I was 5 years ago.

I'm really in the market for an E-MTB, so looking forward to Sea Otter 2023 to try some out.

 

[Gyre]

The only thing I did not care for, was that the stand over height was quite tall, and while the fixed bar was comfortable, I'm not 100% sure the reach was perfect for me. I am 240#, and not quite in road bike shape like I was 5 years ago.

Curious - did the reach or fit feel unusually long or otherwise off?

 

[JStrube]

Curious - did the reach or fit feel unusually long or otherwise off?

I mean, on my Lightspeed, I have a fit by the top fitter on the west coast, Pedro in San Francisco, and LOVE how it rides. At Sea Otter, we ballparked it pretty good. I'd say my angle at my arms was a bit more open, meaning stretched, but not by much, and given that I was on flats, with no bike shorts, and no seat fore-aft adjustment, I'd say I was close enough that it would work out. I kept trying to judge the angle of my arm-shoulder, and it was very very close to my road fit.

 

[MountainBoy]

I mean, on my Lightspeed, I have a fit by the top fitter on the west coast, Pedro in San Francisco, and LOVE how it rides. At Sea Otter, we ballparked it pretty good. I'd say my angle at my arms was a bit more open, meaning stretched, but not by much, and given that I was on flats, with no bike shorts, and no seat fore-aft adjustment, I'd say I was close enough that it would work out. I kept trying to judge the angle of my arm-shoulder, and it was very very close to my road fit.

When you say your arm angle was "more open", it makes me think width, but when you say "meaning more stretched" it makes me think length.

Color me none the wiser.

 

[JStrube]

When you say your arm angle was "more open", it makes me think width, but when you say "meaning more stretched" it makes me think length.

Color me none the wiser.

Sorry, I mean stretched out. stem length on the Grail is not adjustable, you get what you get and don't throw a fit... Width to me, as a gravel or road rider is more about opening up your breathing, vs, being aero, while length is all about stability in your core, comfort, and being able to ride for 100 miles comfortably.

Before getting my fit, I would lean on my wrists, my hands would fall asleep, and I thought I needed to be set up taller to alleviate this. After spending $175 and 90 minutes with fit by Pedro, Not only did I end up with a lower stack, but now, I can ride stronger, faster, farther, with none of the wrist pain, numbness I had before. I used to think a "bike shop fit" was good enough, but no, this guy worked magic. I still need to take my MTB in, he does those too.

 

[MountainBoy]

I test rode the Electric Grail at Sea Otter 2022. I took a very quick lap around the Laguna Seca road course, and boy, was it nice to climb the back hill with power. I tried everything from Eco to Turbo. If I didn't have a really nice Lightspeed T5-G, I would own that bike. The only thing I did not care for, was that the stand over height was quite tall, and while the fixed bar was comfortable, I'm not 100% sure the reach was perfect for me. I am 240#, and not quite in road bike shape like I was 5 years ago.

I'm really in the market for an E-MTB, so looking forward to Sea Otter 2023 to try some out.

I've been having trouble finding a solid answer to my question. The Canyon Website indicates all Grail e-bikes have a top assistance speed of 28 mph. Is this the same for bikes shipped to the US, or do they limit them to whatever the current state regulations allow?

 

[Gyre]

I've been having trouble finding a solid answer to my question. The Canyon Website indicates all Grail e-bikes have a top assistance speed of 28 mph. Is this the same for bikes shipped to the US, or do they limit them to whatever the current state regulations allow?

They advertise them as 28mph in the US (i.e. Class 3). Does any state prohibit Class 3 ebikes on public roads?

On a side note, Bosch Gen 4 motors are notorious for cutting their assistance a bit early. My Wild cuts out roughly at 19.2, and I've heard reports that the Performance Speed may cut out as early as 26.5. Not sure how much luck you can have fixing that without a sympathetic and knowledgeable dealer to help.

 

[MountainBoy]

They advertise them as 28mph in the US (i.e. Class 3). Does any state prohibit Class 3 ebikes on public roads?

On a side note, Bosch Gen 4 motors are notorious for cutting their assistance a bit early. My Wild cuts out roughly at 19.2, and I've heard reports that the Performance Speed may cut out as early as 26.5. Not sure how much luck you can have fixing that without a sympathetic and knowledgeable dealer to help.

Yes, my Scott eMTB has a Bosch and it cuts out at 18.6-18.9. Problem is, that's using the Bosch speedometer to measure cutout speed and I suspect it's reading as much as 2-3 mph high. I really need to put a gps to it! I think I'll be fine with the Grail cutting power as long as it's going at least 25 mph, I just wanted to make sure they were delivering "28 mph" bikes in the US. It's really false advertising for Class 1 and 2 bike makers to publish a 20 mph top speed if the actual cutoff is below that and for class 3 makers to publish 28 mph if below that.

Some states regulate class 3 bikes differently from class 2. It's kind of silly to not have uniform rules from state to state. Many of the rules seem rather arbitrary. In some states a class 3 e-bike is treated as a motor vehicle and is subject to insurance and licensing regulations of motorcycles. I know where I ride, no one will care, including the Border Patrol who rides back-county roads near Canada on small, street legal 4 stroke dual-sports. That said, Washington State regulates all classes as bicycles on public roads except leaves it up to local jurisdictions to make stricter rules for trail use.

 

[MountainBoy]

I'm trying to calculate the speed of the Grail 8 ON CF eTap with a cadence of 80 rpm in top gear 44T crank and 10T rear but I don't know the circumference/diameter of the rear tire.

 

[Gyre]

I'm trying to calculate the speed of the Grail 8 ON CF eTap with a cadence of 80 rpm in top gear 44T crank and 10T rear but I don't know the circumference/diameter of the rear tire.

This should get you into the ballpark: Tire Size Calculator

FYI, I pulled the trigger on a base Grail 7. I figure I'll have 30 days with Canyon to decide whether it's a keeper or not.

 

[MountainBoy]

This should get you into the ballpark: Tire Size Calculator

FYI, I pulled the trigger on a base Grail 7. I figure I'll have 30 days with Canyon to decide whether it's a keeper or not.

Thanks. I got 29.7 mph at 80 rpms (using 700c 50mm tires).

Congrats on the new bike! I just noticed the outlet has a returned Grail:ON CF 8 eTap in my size for $800 off and free shipping. But I think I'll just wait for the new ones to get back in stock. Problem is, they have pushed back the expected date at least two times, maybe three, since I've been waiting. I just don't know where it's been and what's been done to it so hopefully around the 26th it will be back in stock.

Let us know your impressions of your new ride!

 

[Gyre]

Thanks. I got 29.7 mph at 80 rpms (using 700c 50mm tires).

Sounds sensible. You'll just spin out the gear eventually on anything more than a shallow asphalt descent.

That's the thing that drives me nuts with gravel bikes. Their use cases pose a real gearing challenge, and the migration to 1x hasn't helped.

 

[JStrube]

I don't think any states restrict on road E_bike use. I mean, with my unpowered gravel bike fitted with road tires, I can sustain better than Class 1 speeds in a pack... To get that bike humming along in the mid 20's, you will still be doing quite a bit of work yourself!

$800 off and free shipping? I'd have a hard time passing that up.

I stopped by the Canyon store when I visited Southern California last year, They had everything nice and pretty & setup to gawk at. Was still mask central at the time, and no test rides. Not sure how it is a year later.

 

[Gyre]

I stopped by the Canyon store when I visited Southern California last year, They had everything nice and pretty & setup to gawk at. Was still mask central at the time, and no test rides. Not sure how it is a year later.

FWIW, I called them last week hoping to get a test ride. Unfortunately they don't have any Grail:Ons available, just the regular Class 0 Grails.

 

[MountainBoy]

I don't think any states restrict on road E_bike use. I mean, with my unpowered gravel bike fitted with road tires, I can sustain better than Class 1 speeds in a pack... To get that bike humming along in the mid 20's, you will still be doing quite a bit of work yourself!

$800 off and free shipping? I'd have a hard time passing that up.

I stopped by the Canyon store when I visited Southern California last year, They had everything nice and pretty & setup to gawk at. Was still mask central at the time, and no test rides. Not sure how it is a year later.

It's not a matter of an outright restriction on using e-bikes on the road, it's a matter of how they are regulated and, for example, whether even the faster 28 mph e-bikes are regulated as bicycles or as motor vehicles in terms of licensing, insurance, etc. Here is an outline of the basics of the laws in each state. Do not assume it is 100% accurate as laws change all the time and errors are common for other reasons as well:

Electric Bike Laws: A State-by-State Breakdown (bikeberry.com)

For example, the first two states on the list, Alabama and Alaska, requires electric bicycles to be registered as a motor vehicle and the rider to have a driver's license. In many states electric bicycles are regulated the same as bicycles, but only if they are limited to 20 mph or less.

 

[JStrube]

That's a good resource. Laws only apply to folks with something to lose. The tweakers around here can ride mini bikes, gas kit bicycles, etc., with no problem. There is a guy with a Briggs & Stratton hung off the back of his bike. Not sure where he got the welder to build it... but I see him blazing around, not a care in the world.

I go out & ride a Class 3 modded to go 32MPH & I would be tagged in no time.

 

[Gyre]

Haven't had time for a proper shakedown ride (hopefully Saturday, we'll see), but I did spin it around the neighborhood for a few blocks.

Definitely has the sound and feel of the Performance CX gen 4 motor. If there's anything different with the Performance Speed version other than the assist cutoff, it wasn't obvious. Between the rigid frame and semi-slicks, it's pretty sporty about accelerating and holding speed.

The 650b wheels on 50mm gravel tires look ridiculously small sitting next to a 29er wheel with 2.5 Assegais. I can see this being an adventure in underbiking even on a fire road until you put on some more substantial treads. On the plus side, they eat up broken pavement easily in places where a road bike's 700x25 tires would be skittish.

The GRX brake levers have a nicer feel than the old BR-R785 levers I'm more used to. The Shimano incremental evolution was definitely at work there.

Mixed feelings on the Hoverbar. I like the look and being on the hoods and flats is pretty comfortable overall, but it's weird reaching blindly for the drops and then feeling my thumb hit the bottom crossbar.

The battery should be a straightforward fit into an Amplifi Etrack 23 pack, so carrying a second battery for extra range should be feasible.

So far, I'd say that if anything is likely to be a deal-killer, it's that proprietary front end really limiting options on tailoring the fit and feel of the bike. I have the bar sitting as high as it'll go and would still like it to be higher. However, I've been away from road bikes for so long I'm sure my flexibility isn't what it should be.

 

[JStrube]

You know, I always thought my road fit needed a higher bar, but then I went to see a REAL fitter. Not sure where you live, but I travelled 3 hours to see Pedro, in San Francisco. He heads to LA if you are in So Cal. If in another state, many areas have fitters ranked online. I just googled "Best fitter" in my area of interest. Not only did he drop my bar a good 15mm, with his magic, I climbed a hill I never got up without resting before, and have no wrist or arm pain. The transformation from leaning on the bars, and everything hurting, to supporting myself, and no pain was amazing. He started with my cleats, then my saddle, then my bars. I am 235lb, definitely not a cyclist figure.

When I moved that bike over to the gravel, I raised the bar one 5mm washer, mainly because I was up to 245. I'm almost ready to take that washer back out...

 

[MountainBoy]

Haven't had time for a proper shakedown ride (hopefully Saturday, we'll see), but I did spin it around the neighborhood for a few blocks.

Definitely has the sound and feel of the Performance CX gen 4 motor. If there's anything different with the Performance Speed version other than the assist cutoff, it wasn't obvious. Between the rigid frame and semi-slicks, it's pretty sporty about accelerating and holding speed.

The 650b wheels on 50mm gravel tires look ridiculously small sitting next to a 29er wheel with 2.5 Assegais. I can see this being an adventure in underbiking even on a fire road until you put on some more substantial treads. On the plus side, they eat up broken pavement easily in places where a road bike's 700x25 tires would be skittish.

The GRX brake levers have a nicer feel than the old BR-R785 levers I'm more used to. The Shimano incremental evolution was definitely at work there.

Mixed feelings on the Hoverbar. I like the look and being on the hoods and flats is pretty comfortable overall, but it's weird reaching blindly for the drops and then feeling my thumb hit the bottom crossbar.

The battery should be a straightforward fit into an Amplifi Etrack 23 pack, so carrying a second battery for extra range should be feasible.

So far, I'd say that if anything is likely to be a deal-killer, it's that proprietary front end really limiting options on tailoring the fit and feel of the bike. I have the bar sitting as high as it'll go and would still like it to be higher. However, I've been away from road bikes for so long I'm sure my flexibility isn't what it should be.

Looking forward to more impressions after you are able to ride it more. In the meantime, your initial impressions raised a a couple of questions.

1) When you say you have the bar sitting as high as it will go, do you mean you raised it up with the custom riser shims that cause the top of the steering stem to no longer be flush with the top of the frame? At least that's my understanding of the only way the bars can be raised but I've never seen a photo of raised bars so I'm not sure.

2) You mention "650b" wheels. The Canyon website says it comes with 27.5" up to small frame sizes and 28" from Med. on up. Does this mean 650 and 700? And that you bought a small frame (or smaller)?

 

[Gyre]

1) When you say you have the bar sitting as high as it will go, do you mean you raised it up with the custom riser shims that cause the top of the steering stem to no longer be flush with the top of the frame? At least that's my understanding of the only way the bars can be raised but I've never seen a photo of raised bars so I'm not sure.

Negative. Assuming I understood the pictograph guides correctly, when the stem is flush with the top tube, that *is* the highest level you can go. If you look at the photo below, there are two spacers under the stem. Your only option from here is to lower the bar by removing one or both spacers and replace them with corresponding spacers that sit under the top cap.

2) You mention "650b" wheels. The Canyon website says it comes with 27.5" up to small frame sizes and 28" from Med. on up. Does this mean 650 and 700? And that you bought a small frame (or smaller)?

Yes and yes. 650b is the original name for the standard (originally derived from touring bikes apparently) that eventually became christened as 27.5.

I usually fit a medium or medium-large in mountain bikes and typically ride a 55cm road frame. In the case of Canyon, their website, geometry charts, and various forums seem to concur that their sizing runs large and Medium wouldn't be a good fit (Bummer because I'd really prefer the 700c wheels).

 

[Gyre]

You know, I always thought my road fit needed a higher bar, but then I went to see a REAL fitter. Not sure where you live, but I travelled 3 hours to see Pedro, in San Francisco. He heads to LA if you are in So Cal. If in another state, many areas have fitters ranked online. I just googled "Best fitter" in my area of interest. Not only did he drop my bar a good 15mm, with his magic, I climbed a hill I never got up without resting before, and have no wrist or arm pain. The transformation from leaning on the bars, and everything hurting, to supporting myself, and no pain was amazing. He started with my cleats, then my saddle, then my bars. I am 235lb, definitely not a cyclist figure.

I'll consider it, thanks. The first professional fitting I had was a disaster, so I'm rather skeptical of the practice as a whole.

 

[MountainBoy]

Sounds sensible. You'll just spin out the gear eventually on anything more than a shallow asphalt descent.

That's the thing that drives me nuts with gravel bikes. Their use cases pose a real gearing challenge, and the migration to 1x hasn't helped.

I saw a neat internal 2 speed rear hub that can be used with standard cassettes for more gear range. I wonder if it would be compatible with the Grail? It's not cheap but it looks like it would be worth it.

Yikes, Canyon was pushing back availability a week or two at a time until last week they moved it all the way to December 2022!