Bosch Power More 250W

[Spiff]

I just bough my Cannondale with Bosch 4Gen Smart System, according Serial Number label, it was manufactured on May 22th 2023, so I was checking if the new Power More Extender is compatible with it, and it isn't. I'd say Bosch is shooting himself in the foot, there is a huge market of older ebikes willing to use a Bosch Extender but they don't provide it.

Power More has a new plug that will not match older Charge Sockets, probably 2024 ebikes will have "Bosch 4Gen Release 2", and they will include the new socket.

I found it in this video:

PowerMore 250 Ready?

Ist mein Bosch E-Bike PowerMore bereit? ▶️Tutorial https://youtu.be/faXccj9ZWH4

www.youtube.com

 

[cozzy]

I hope I dont regret my decision to order a Bosch bike. Ive already found the range of controllers and batteries highly confusing ie smart, non smart, horizontal, vertical etc.
They seem to be building in obsolescence if this is the case.
Specialized seemed much more straightforward.

 

[ianos]

If its just the cable the could provide an adapter for older models. Thas is not going to be very hard. But i think the main problem is that the power more has to be enabled in the motor for the bicycle manufacturer

 

[Sander23]

I assume it's only the cable. Can't it just be replaced?

 

[Spiff]

To make things even more confusing, ebike24 shop is announcing the new Bosch Charging Cable as: Compatible with Motor Performance Line CX starting from 2022 Smart System, so according this, if I buy this cable and install it then my ebike would be compatible with Power More Extender.

Bosch - Cable de la toma de carga Smart System

El cable de la toma de carga Smart System de Bosch está diseñado para cargar la batería PowerTube de 750 Wh directamente en la…

www.ebike24.es

But Bosch web states that Power More is only compatible with 2024 Smart System, so I guess we won't know for sure until somebody buys the cable and installs it in a 2022 Smart System and tries Power More 250.

 

[TommyC]

I have a 2022 cube. I noticed on my service report that is says”‘power more ready: no”

Most of the other settings shown there can be changed. So maybe it can be activated?


Is it just me that thinks having it plugged into the charge port is a bad idea? Seems like it would just get in the way on my cube.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

Specialized seemed much more straightforward.

Proprietary is good in this case, right?

 

[cozzy]

Proprietary is good in this case, right?

The fact I can buy a specialized 500 or 700 battery from 2019 onwards and it will fit and work on my bike is very good yes.

 

[Sander23]

Ebike24 states that it's only possible to run a diagnostic to find out if the bike is compatible. They also say if thats not the case you can try to mail the manufacturer if they can provide a software update

 

[Durrti]

My ‘23 Orbea Wild is compatible not sure I need 1000wh of battery though

 

[Ark]

you can buy a 750wh tube battery for like half the cost per watt

the power more packs are crazy priced.
I'd get a spare tube and a back pack ..
you can get adapters so a 500wh battery will fit in a tube thats setup for a 750wh battery etc too

 

[Spiff]

It is clear now, this ebike24 video explains it:

They say that:

• All ebikes with Smartsystem have the SW prepared to connect the PowerMore Range Extender, and in the diagnostic this new line appears POWERMORE READY = YES/NO.
• But the other requirement is that the frame has reinforced threads for the water bottle so that theycan withstand the 1,5Kg weight of the PowerMore, compliance with this requirement is decided by the bike manufacturer and it is reflected in the Diagnostic configuration: POWERMORE READY = YES/NO
• If it is NO, you must ask the Bike Manufacturer and request a SW update to set it to YES

 

[Spiff]

To summarize, the Bosch system in my Cannondale Moterra Neo 3 2023 is compatible with the Bosch PowerMore range extender, but for it to work, Cannondale must update the Manufactureres Container in Bike Configuration to change: POWERMORE READY = NO --> YES.

So you to select a LBS which is Cannondale Distributor, and they should plug the Bosch Diagnostic to your ebike and then ask Cannondale to send a new Configuration File which includes POWERMORE READY = YES, and after they load it to your ebike, you will see PowerMore option in Bosch Flow APP and also in the Kiox - My Bike - Components.


Cannondale used to be a brand with a extremly good engineering and they did many impressive designs, but at some point, Cannondale was bought by Pon Holdings which is an investment company with headquarters in Netherlands.

We move you to a better world • Pon

Welcome to Pon We are a leading family multinational with an annual turnover of over €10 billion. Our 13,800 employees work across 34 countries on 6 continents, but our home base is the Netherlands. With numerous strong brands and 120 companies, we are active in four clusters: Automotive...

pon.com

 

[gustl]

Hello Spiff,

I excactly got the same answer from Mondraker for the Crafty R model. They do not want to support anyone to overwrite the Power more ready settings. This is even though the Crafty R already has the updated charging port and you cannot exchange the main battery on that bike. So the Crafty R rider would be the perfect buying candidate for the power more kit. But Mondraker does not care. I got similar answers from other manufacturers. Seems to me, that some guys in the industry are sceptical about the security of an external battery on a bike used in heavy terrain.

As far as I have heard, the Monterra is not yet equipped with the new style plug necessary to use Powermore.

Maybe you also will have a problem with the position of the charging on that bike. I remember to have read a test, claiming that the cranks of the Monterra LT can collide and will damage the flap of the charging port when left open. As you have to plugin the Power more cable there, this could be a complete showstopper for the Powermore on your bike.

Anyway: there is a hint in the video obove to a theoretical solution: in the video they tell us that you can use the power more battery standalone, so you can remove the standard battery (of course not on my crafty ;-). In this case the main battery is disconnected from the CAN-Bus and the only battery present in the system is the Powermore. It migth be, that in that scenario the system will accecpt the Powermore as the main battery without complaining.

Maybe someone will check this out in future and report here.

Cheers, Gustl

 

[Spiff]

Hi Gustl,

Seems to me, that some guys in the industry are sceptical about the security of an external battery on a bike used in heavy terrain.
*** There is a non official range extender (Vola Bike) that installs in the bottle cage, and to work properly it even requires to drill the original battery to pass a wire and solder it to the current sense resistor inside tha battery, so the motor will not post an error because of the current differences between motor and battery. I will never do this because of the safety hazard, but because bike manufactureres are not authorizing Powermore, many, many people is doing this.

As far as I have heard, the Monterra is not yet equipped with the new style plug necessary to use Powermore.
*** They are equipped, but if not, it is very easy and cheap (25€) to change the charge cable

Maybe you also will have a problem with the position of the charging on that bike. I remember to have read a test, claiming that the cranks of the Monterra LT can collide and will damage the flap of the charging port when left open.
** There is no problem, the flap door fully opens 180º, and there is around 40mm space for the plug.

Anyway: there is a hint in the video obove to a theoretical solution: in the video they tell us that you can use the power more battery standalone, so you can remove the standard battery (of course not on my crafty ;-). In this case the main battery is disconnected from the CAN-Bus and the only battery present in the system is the Powermore. It migth be, that in that scenario the system will accecpt the Powermore as the main battery without complaining. Maybe someone will check this out in future and report here.
** This could be a solution for emergencies, the only drawback is to carry the 750W battery in the backpack or rear rack, but this would be at the very end of the day and for a short time, when the 750W battery is depleted and going back to home/hotel.

 

[Spiff]

Repeated.

 

[Spiff]

As far as I have heard, the Monterra is not yet equipped with the new style plug necessary to use Powermore.

You can buy the new charge cable for 23,28€, and the installation is not difficult.

Bosch - Cable de la toma de carga Smart System

El cable de la toma de carga Smart System de Bosch está diseñado para cargar la batería PowerTube de 750 Wh directamente en la…

www.ebike24.es

Maybe you also will have a problem with the position of the charging on that bike. I remember to have read a test, claiming that the cranks of the Monterra LT can collide and will damage the flap of the charging port when left open. As you have to plugin the Power more cable there, this could be a complete showstopper for the Powermore on your bike.

Regarding the position of the charging port and the flap door for it, I checked it again and the flap door opens 180º and there are 35mm from charge port to the crank (See attached picture), which should be enough for the Powermore connector, you just have to install it so the cable exit is pointing upwards and use a zip tie to secure the cable to the frame downtube. The only issue I see is that when the flap is open 180º (flap pointing downwards) the spring is not holding the flap strongly in this position, so it might be neccesary to secure it using adhesive tape or some other method, but as I said, I'll use the Powermore sporadically and at the end of a long day, after the the main battery (750W) is depleted

Anyway: there is a hint in the video obove to a theoretical solution: in the video they tell us that you can use the power more battery standalone, so you can remove the standard battery (of course not on my crafty ;-). In this case the main battery is disconnected from the CAN-Bus and the only battery present in the system is the Powermore. It migth be, that in that scenario the system will accecpt the Powermore as the main battery without complaining.

I just have an idea to do this, I'll give it a thought and post later or tomorrow

 

[Spiff]

Anyway: there is a hint in the video obove to a theoretical solution: in the video they tell us that you can use the power more battery standalone, so you can remove the standard battery (of course not on my crafty ;-). In this case the main battery is disconnected from the CAN-Bus and the only battery present in the system is the Powermore. It migth be, that in that scenario the system will accecpt the Powermore as the main battery without complaining.

The drawback of this solution is that Main Battery and Powermore can not be plugged at the same time because the motor will post an Error Code, so to install Powermore it would be required to remove the Main Battery and carry it in a backpack or in the Rear Rack, but as the weight is 4,4Kg and it'd be heavy to carry.

WARNING: I am sorry for the long and teachie post but I am parked at home for a few days and I have lots of time to spare.

So the perfect solution would be to carry both Main Battery and Powermore installed in the ebike and be able to select either of them by means of an external switch, and this is my Theoric Plan for that.

First let me tell you: DON'T TRY TO DO THIS YET, for now this is just a theory, I am new to Bosch eBikes (One month and half) and I learned some of the following information by reading technical information and forums and this theory makes a lot of sense to me, but I might be wrong. So it would be good if somebody with more knowledge of Bosch cables and interfaces reviews it, and confirms if this is feasible or has any issue that I am not aware of, and if everything is correct, then may be somebody will be the first one to try and confirm the theory.

So let's start from the basics: the Battery internals:

• Main Battery (750W) has 60 x 18760 Lithium Cells and an electronic board (BMS) that:
  • Controls and balance charge of the cells
  • Monitors that battery internal parameters are within limits: Output Voltage, cell voltage, current and temperature
  • Connects and disconnects battery output to motor or charger by using a solid state MOSFET Output switch.
  • Has CAN Bus communication with Motor. CAN Bus is a Multipoint Bus developed by Bosch for the Car industry and is an Industry Standard, and now is also being used in Bosch powered ebikes.
• Main Battery Connector to Motor has 4 wires:
  • Two of them are the thick wires that carry the power to the motor: +36V (RED) and 0V(GND) (BLACK)
  • The remaining two are thin wires (GREEN and YELLOW) for the CAN Bus.

The way the Motor and Battery connection works is:

• In case there is only one battery:
  • When powering the bike ON, the battery MOSFET Output Switch is OFF, so the battery output voltage is not connected to the motor
  • Then CAN BUS starts a handshaking data transmission between Battery and Motor to communicate that none of them has any error and all the internal parameters are within limits
  • If everything is fine then the Battery switches ON its MOSFET Output Switch and now the Motor receives the voltage output from the battery and starts running.
• In case that there are two batteries in the system, like Main Battery and Powermore, and the motor configuration allows the two batteries (POWERMORE READY = YES).
  • The Motor will communicate through the CAN Bus to both of them and it will select batteries sequentially by switching ON/OFF the batteries MOSFET Output switches:
    • Motor will set Main Battery ON and Secondary Battery OFF, and after using 5% of the battery
    • Then Motor will switch Main Battery OFF and Secondary Battery ON and continue the discharge.
    • The previous cycle will be repeated until batteries are exhausted.
    • That is, the 36V Output Voltage from both batteries will not be connected in parallel at the same time to the Motor because Motor is controlling MOSFET OUTPUT Switches of both batteries.

So the Theorical solution to have Main Battery and Powermore installed in the ebike would be to use a Switch DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) for Battery Selection and connect it the following way:

• Cut CAN wires from battery to motor
• Cut Can Wires from Charge plug to Motor
• Use a Multipole switch and connect:
  • CAN wires from Battery to Input 1 of Multipole Switch
  • CAN wires from Charge Plug to Input 2 of Multipole Switch
  • CAN wires from Motor to Output of Multipole Switch

So now we can have Main Battery installed and Powermore plugged, but with the Switch we can select which Battery CAN BUS is connected to the Motor, and:

• This selected battery will perform the handshaking and switch ON its internal MOSFET Output Switch and power the Motor.
• The second, unselected, battery do not have the CAN Bus connected, so it will be invisible to the Motor and its internal MOSFEET Output switch would be OFF until selected by the switch.

The switch and cable:

• The ideal switch would be installed in the handlebar, there are many switches for motorbike use and may be one of them is type DPDT and could be used for this application.
• The cable to extend CAN Bus wires from motor and batteries to the switch could be one from a quality USB-C cable that has 6 internal wires.

The issues:

• This has not been tested, but soon after Powermore is released, there will be many people with expired bike warrany and eager to install Powermore doing experimentsto to install it, and then we will have more information about the feasibility of the installation.
• It will not be possible to charge the battery through the charge port because CAN Bus from Charger Port would be disconnected from Main Battery. The fix to this will need more thinking, the first idea would be to use a more complex switch with three positions:
  • Position 1: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Battery
  • Position 2: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Charge Port
  • Position 3: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Charge Port AND Battery

And as I said before, DON'T TRY THIS, wait untill this theory has been confirmed and somebody knowledgeable expert verifies it.

 

[TommyC]

Can’t you just find someone with the bosch software that is willing to turn it on for you?

 

[Spiff]

Can’t you just find someone with the bosch software that is willing to turn it on for you?

This parameter is in a Configuration Protected Area that the LBS can not change, I have been told that the procedure is:

• LBS plugs diagnostic into bike
• LBS asks Cannondale for the new configuration file
• LBS loads the new configuration file

 

[Spiff]

There is another issue to mount the Powermore, the problem is that in some bikes the threaded inserts in the diagonal tube, used for the bottle cage bolts, are very low, probably to lower the Gravity Center. This is not an issue for the bottle cage, but Powermore Mounting plate requires around 90mm clearance below the lower mounting screw and if the clearance is smaller then there is a mechanical interference between Powermore and ebike frame.

This interference happens in Cannondale Moterra Neo, and also in other bikes, and among them is the Orbea Wild FS, and each of them has taken a different approach to fix the issue and keep the customer happy:

• Cannondale quick and easy solution has been to refuse authorization to mount Bosch Powermore, so now there is no assembly problem.
• Orbea has taken a more proactive and customer oriented approach and has designed an interposer plate that can be bolted to the low frame inserts, but it has 2 additional threaded inserts in an upper position that allow to mount Powermore. This way customer is happy and Orbea is happier because they sell this interface plate for 44€.

Comprar Pletina Orbea Bateria Bosch Powermore Wild 23 | Recambios E-bike

Compra en Escapa los recambios para tu bicicleta. La pletina Orbea Bateria Bosch Powermore Wild 23 es específica para el montaje de la batería Bosch PowerMore 250 en cuadros Wild MY2023.

www.biciescapa.com

I am attching a picture of the low Cannondale bottlecage that can be moved upwards with Orbea Interposer Plate in second picture.

 

[gustl]

The drawback of this solution is that Main Battery and Powermore can not be plugged at the same time because the motor will post an Error Code, so to install Powermore it would be required to remove the Main Battery and carry it in a backpack or in the Rear Rack, but as the weight is 4,4Kg and it'd be heavy to carry.

WARNING: I am sorry for the long and teachie post but I am parked at home for a few days and I have lots of time to spare.

So the perfect solution would be to carry both Main Battery and Powermore installed in the ebike and be able to select either of them by means of an external switch, and this is my Theoric Plan for that.

First let me tell you: DON'T TRY TO DO THIS YET, for now this is just a theory, I am new to Bosch eBikes (One month and half) and I learned some of the following information by reading technical information and forums and this theory makes a lot of sense to me, but I might be wrong. So it would be good if somebody with more knowledge of Bosch cables and interfaces reviews it, and confirms if this is feasible or has any issue that I am not aware of, and if everything is correct, then may be somebody will be the first one to try and confirm the theory.

So let's start from the basics: the Battery internals:

• Main Battery (750W) has 60 x 18760 Lithium Cells and an electronic board (BMS) that:
  • Controls and balance charge of the cells
  • Monitors that battery internal parameters are within limits: Output Voltage, cell voltage, current and temperature
  • Connects and disconnects battery output to motor or charger by using a solid state MOSFET Output switch.
  • Has CAN Bus communication with Motor. CAN Bus is a Multipoint Bus developed by Bosch for the Car industry and is an Industry Standard, and now is also being used in Bosch powered ebikes.
• Main Battery Connector to Motor has 4 wires:
  • Two of them are the thick wires that carry the power to the motor: +36V (RED) and 0V(GND) (BLACK)
  • The remaining two are thin wires (GREEN and YELLOW) for the CAN Bus.

The way the Motor and Battery connection works is:

• In case there is only one battery:
  • When powering the bike ON, the battery MOSFET Output Switch is OFF, so the battery output voltage is not connected to the motor
  • Then CAN BUS starts a handshaking data transmission between Battery and Motor to communicate that none of them has any error and all the internal parameters are within limits
  • If everything is fine then the Battery switches ON its MOSFET Output Switch and now the Motor receives the voltage output from the battery and starts running.
• In case that there are two batteries in the system, like Main Battery and Powermore, and the motor configuration allows the two batteries (POWERMORE READY = YES).
  • The Motor will communicate through the CAN Bus to both of them and it will select batteries sequentially by switching ON/OFF the batteries MOSFET Output switches:
    • Motor will set Main Battery ON and Secondary Battery OFF, and after using 5% of the battery
    • Then Motor will switch Main Battery OFF and Secondary Battery ON and continue the discharge.
    • The previous cycle will be repeated until batteries are exhausted.
    • That is, the 36V Output Voltage from both batteries will not be connected in parallel at the same time to the Motor because Motor is controlling MOSFET OUTPUT Switches of both batteries.

So the Theorical solution to have Main Battery and Powermore installed in the ebike would be to use a Switch DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) for Battery Selection and connect it the following way:

• Cut CAN wires from battery to motor
• Cut Can Wires from Charge plug to Motor
• Use a Multipole switch and connect:
  • CAN wires from Battery to Input 1 of Multipole Switch
  • CAN wires from Charge Plug to Input 2 of Multipole Switch
  • CAN wires from Motor to Output of Multipole Switch

So now we can have Main Battery installed and Powermore plugged, but with the Switch we can select which Battery CAN BUS is connected to the Motor, and:

• This selected battery will perform the handshaking and switch ON its internal MOSFET Output Switch and power the Motor.
• The second, unselected, battery do not have the CAN Bus connected, so it will be invisible to the Motor and its internal MOSFEET Output switch would be OFF until selected by the switch.

The switch and cable:

• The ideal switch would be installed in the handlebar, there are many switches for motorbike use and may be one of them is type DPDT and could be used for this application.
• The cable to extend CAN Bus wires from motor and batteries to the switch could be one from a quality USB-C cable that has 6 internal wires.

The issues:

• This has not been tested, but soon after Powermore is released, there will be many people with expired bike warrany and eager to install Powermore doing experimentsto to install it, and then we will have more information about the feasibility of the installation.
• It will not be possible to charge the battery through the charge port because CAN Bus from Charger Port would be disconnected from Main Battery. The fix to this will need more thinking, the first idea would be to use a more complex switch with three positions:
  • Position 1: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Battery
  • Position 2: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Charge Port
  • Position 3: CAN Bus from Motor connected to Charge Port AND Battery

And as I said before, DON'T TRY THIS, wait untill this theory has been confirmed and somebody knowledgeable expert verifies it.

Hello Spiff,

your proposal seems to be very promising, but may only work for fullsized / "dual battery" capable external batteries (i.e. PowerPacks 545/725 and Smart System Frame Packs). It migth not work for Bosch Range Extender.
A very experienced dealer (they're selling Bosch Smart System Motors) and Bosh hotline told me the following:
- If Range Extender ist enabled in the Software configuration it CAN be used without the main battery BUT Motor power output is reduced to 80% then ! This implies to me, that the Motor ist aware, that a range extender is connected even when a first/main battery is not present. With high probability motors, that are not configured to accept range extenders at all will block them also in this usecase.
- Range Extender and Dual Battery Option are slightly different features. In your post you acurately describe the dual battery functionality that makes alternating use of the different batteries connected. I assume Range Extender ist used in parallel with the main battery, because it is too week for normal dual battery operation.
- I was unable to find out, if a motor that is not range extender enabled is also blocked for dual battery. These migth be two different settings in the software.

So I will give my wifes Powertube a try as a secondary battery using the Range Extender Connection Cable as soon as I get it. So stay tuned ;-)

 

[Spiff]

Hello Spiff,

your proposal seems to be very promising, but may only work for fullsized / "dual battery" capable external batteries (i.e. PowerPacks 545/725 and Smart System Frame Packs). It migth not work for Bosch Range Extender.
A very experienced dealer (they're selling Bosch Smart System Motors) and Bosh hotline told me the following:
- If Range Extender ist enabled in the Software configuration it CAN be used without the main battery BUT Motor power output is reduced to 80% then ! This implies to me, that the Motor ist aware, that a range extender is connected even when a first/main battery is not present. With high probability motors, that are not configured to accept range extenders at all will block them also in this usecase.
- Range Extender and Dual Battery Option are slightly different features. In your post you acurately describe the dual battery functionality that makes alternating use of the different batteries connected. I assume Range Extender ist used in parallel with the main battery, because it is too week for normal dual battery operation.
- I was unable to find out, if a motor that is not range extender enabled is also blocked for dual battery. These migth be two different settings in the software.

So I will give my wifes Powertube a try as a secondary battery using the Range Extender Connection Cable as soon as I get it. So stay tuned ;-)

Thank you for your detailed explanations, they make sense. Let's us know if the secondary battery using the Range Extender Connection works fine.

 

[Spiff]

Hello Spiff,

your proposal migth not work for Bosch Range Extender.
A very experienced dealer (they're selling Bosch Smart System Motors) and Bosch hotline told me the following:
- If Range Extender is enabled in the Software configuration it CAN be used without the main battery BUT Motor power output is reduced to 80% then ! This implies to me, that the Motor ist aware, that a range extender is connected even when a first/main battery is not present. With high probability, motors that are not configured to accept range extenders at all will block them also in this usecase.

It is easy to check which theory is correct, whether Powermore Extender can work or not alone (Without Main Battery) in a ebike with POWERMORE READY = NO. To test it, we should proceed the following way, but as Powermore Extender has not been released yet we should wait until it is released:

• Ebike should have the newer Charge Plug socket that allows to plug the Powermore cable
• Borrow Powermore Extender from a store or a friend
• Bike Powered OFF
• Remove Main Battery
• Plug PowerMore to the charge socket

Now Power ON the ebike and if motor works then Powermore can be used alone without Main Battery even when it is not configured in the motor.